Yes, there are many randomized elements, as in most games. Not all random elements resemble gambling enough to merit that label.

But this game does have many straight-up gambling elements, such as paying money for promotional boxes. These are basically lottery tickets for virtual goods. It worries me because some people have tendency toward gambling addiction, and this game (as much as I love it) may be exploiting them.

You didn't mention my favorite example: the prize wheel. It doesn't even make sense in the game. I'm racing through a terrifying dungeon inside a mysterious planet, and I fight my way through vicious monsters to the exit, and...suddenly I'm at a slot machine getting a prize?!

"Hurr durr, OH NO, this is the third time I got a fiend low on my acheron, this game must be broken!!! Let's implement a new system where we can control what UVs we get while OOO can't get any profit!"

"Hurr durr, OH NO, I missed the BK event, the apocrea event and the tortodrone, let's make them all year around so everyone who is too lazy or too scared to partake can have chance to get the items that others spent hard labour to get!"

"hurr durr, OH NO, I got insulted on forum, let's make a complain button where I can pour all my bad days at the GMs who are already working their butts off trying to maintain this game!"

Complains, complains and more comlains, if you hate the aspect of gambeling in this game, then don't punch your weapons, stay tuned to forum for any event and flash sale announcement, don't buy the prize boxes with your hard earn cash in RL.

And you know what else is a gamble? Your life, that is RIGHT, your real life.

Time is money, I guess.

Gambling involves giving up a possession on hopes that you will get an item of more value than the item you wagered. The only gambles in this game would be opening prize boxes, lockboxes, or punch's UV's, anything else is sheer gain, and is not essentially gambling.

Elrick, that's a bit true. But also a bit false.

It really depends. Apocorean was truly new, and there wasn't really gambling. Unless you say opening tombstones is a gamble, but I deny that for various reasons. Whereas Blackkat is really up to luck. (Though I just realized why: Blackkats are cursed with bad luck. So, naturally, fighting them will make them use that bad luck against you...in a way.)

The problem is that so much of it is events rather than solid content. (Anything that stays is a new mechanic, which is a bad thing.) Indeed, all MMOs are gambles though. The thing about MMOs is that you have to keep players playing because an MMO without players is a bad MMO. MMOs rely on player bases much more heavily than other genres purely because of this. This is why you see indie games and other small games focusing much less on chance features. (And I would even include Minecraft in this; sure world generation is random, but I don't see a way around that.)

EDIT: Also, I never purchase anything with a chance to get me something good via real money. I don't like gambling and I hope OOO stops trying to make me gamble with real money.

Never thought of doing that...

Why do I feel silly? :I

If all the other MMOs jumped of a bridge should SK do so too? But really, why should we limit ourselves based on the failings of other games?

--

I'm not sure you read my entire post. :s

Then I'm not sure you should be posting right now? It seems pretty counter-intuitive to any actual discussion. I actually answered the questions you posed in my original post. But to elaborate, I guess:

I don't believe that Spiral Knights is "over-reliant" on chance, and in fact this game is more skill-based than chance. Yes, rolling a perfect UV is all down to chance, but that's also not mandatory to succeed. Other games, to stick with the ones I referenced, WoW and Borderlands, REQUIRE you to continue rolling over and over and over until you get necessary gear to advance, especially in higher-level playing. (I'm completely unable to continue solo in Borderlands without a particular loadout, skill is somewhat necessary but I know that it'll be much, much easier with a particular item, and I have had several friends in WoW who couldn't do a particular raid until they finished grinding out some of the others for the proper equipment to do the next one.) In Spiral Knights, all you need to do is just get any 5* equipment and then you can access literally anything. (Barring Shadow Lairs, but 1800 CE is not that hard to come up with.) There aren't any missions that require you to get a UV.

I'm not certain that anything mandatory to succeed or progress in this game even slightly touches on chance? It seems to me that it boils down to skill and perseverance. Even if you don't find your Orbs of Alchemy, you can ALWAYS buy them. You never get stuck on a chance like a lot of others I've played have done.

As mentioned, I think that some element of chance is necessary for a game like this. Any game where I can just GRAB everything is over rather quickly. I can beat Banjo-Kazooie in under eight hours with 100% completion, because there's no chance element; once you know where something is or how to get it, bam, it's yours. Mega Man is one of my favorite series of all time, but you can only put so many hours into it before you realize you're not gaining anything. At least with repeating missions in Spiral Knights, I'm earning money that I can put toward a new item or costume or my guild. There's always some overall net gain.

The only stuff I leave up to chance are the extremely occasional boxes that I purchase (this promo has been unusual for me, I usually just sell the boxes), and crafting UVs. And even if I don't get a UV it's not like my weapon or armor is going to be useless. People can beat Vanaduke in Proto gear, I definitely don't need CTR Max on my Blitz Needle. Having a magic button combination to obtain CTR Max on my Blitz would also take all of the fun out of working to get one. ;) AND! When you finally get a lucky roll, it feels pretty amazing. I particularly enjoy the feeling of an unexpected surprise, like the time I crafted a Shock Max Mercurial Helm. My heart physically skipped a beat and I felt proud. Can't get that without an element of chance, either, though I guess that's more anecdotal.

tl;dr, chance isn't necessary to progress in-game, I personally feel that Spiral Knights does a dang good job with their chance elements being largely non-essential to gameplay, and you generally have another option to get the chance-related things you might want anyway

tl;dr2, I am not very good at being succinct.

Addy, become my replacement in May. :V

With the introduction of the forge system, you kind of do need to 'gamble' to advance - heating gear to upgrade is a necessary part of progression, whereas gear 'necessity' in Borderlands is something you can overcome with skill (well, if you skip it, it's basically like trying to run FSC with proto weapons - things just take way too long).

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As for gambling, generally, I only categorize something as 'gambling' if there's money input from your side, and the results are mostly based on chance.

- Coliseum doesn't count, because you throw money in, but you have significant impact on whether you gain money back.
- Punch counts, because you throw money in, and you cannot impact whether you get a reward.

As for things like the Black Kat event... yeah, there's a very slim chance for success, but you only (...!!) lose time/effort. I guess it's gambling if you pick the right definition for it, but not under mine :x

You forgot to mention the charge attacks of the Fang of Vog, Faust, and Gran Faust. (and to some extent the sealed sword charge)

@Mawashimono

"Randomness enhances the gameplay! You don't ever lose anything if you luck out."

I'm going to take this piece by piece, because I strongly think against this.

-Forging really shouldn't have a chance system that incentivizes guarantees. Instead, you should be given Forge Boxes by collecting a variety of gear, rewarding players who expand their Arsenal, while only giving the option for '100% chance' forging. Nobody in their right mind wants to take a 20% chance, since you get absolutely nothing if you're unlucky. The concept of losing your Crystals while getting nothing for it is most definitely a "loss for the player".

-Prize Boxes can give you something you'd love to have (in my case, Dragon Wings), something you didn't really want but are okay with having/trading away (Moustaches, Vertical Vents, Auras, Halos, wings that don't have 'dragon' in them, etc.), or something that you didn't want at all- and probably can't sell, because nobody else wants it either! (Barrel Bellies, Maid Headbands, etc. etc.) There's a clear way to "lose" no matter how you got the box. Even if it was just some time that you spent, you're not gonna get it back if you get something you don't want.

-Item drops being randomized could be totally circumvented (though maybe not efficiently). While there's definitely set chances for everyone, not everyone is as lucky or unlucky. Someone could have everything they need in minutes, and someone else would have to resort to shelling out some crowns to buy from someone who wasn't so unlucky. Generally, it's not so bad, but when you have something like the Katastrophe where a Book of Dark Rituals drops at an absurdly low chance from an absurdly rare enemy, the only fun you have grinding for it is the joy of finding it, knowing that you don't have to keep waiting and wasting time. I don't know how many times people made threads on that stupid book, but nearly everyone who complained wanted a way to get it guaranteed (at, say, 400 pages). Some people went upwards of 600+ pages (myself included) because they just weren't lucky.

-And now, the thing everyone knows I hate oh so much: Unique Variants, their current state in the game and the system they're locked behind. Only the second part is relevant, though.

I'll sum this up in a single phrase: progress locked behind luck. You can't guarantee what Variant you'll get, you can only lock in what you've already got. You could spend 20k crowns getting that CTR High you wanted on your favorite bomb, or you could spend 500k and end with Beast Low. There is no guarantee, ever.

Do you understand why that isn't fun? Looking back to what I said about the BoDR- the only fun you have gambling your resources away is when you finally get what you were looking for. It only took you 360k for that ASI Medium, after all!

Unfortunately, if you want to play this game competitively or feel as impactful as someone who's been playing longer than you have in a tough mission, you don't just need to be good. You have to be stupidly lucky. Briefly touching on that first part I said I'd pass over- bombs are incredibly reliant on CTR, status resistance gives immunity to haze bombs at certain levels, ASI makes mistakes so much less painful, etc. etc..

That doesn't add to the enjoyment of the game. It creates a wall between players that have a lot of spare money or time and the players that don't, a pretty sizable one, too. I don't know anyone who finds that fun- except maybe the people who love having an unfair advantage, or are afraid that their bonuses might be less special if the broken system of chance was ever changed- even if it should change.

Looking at Warframe again, there are people who will defend mechanics that make you nearly permanently invincible, or practically instagib every enemy in the room. That's a pretty extreme example, but it's one.

@ Draycos

Thank you for that well-written and well-thought response and for its overall tone.

I’ll try to respond a bit.

Let’s start with those two sentences in quotation marks, which seem to imply that you are quoting me when in fact you were paraphrasing my words, and in the second sentence, really mis-representing my argument since I said nothing like that.

By forging, you mean the heat leveling up process, right? I don’t know why anyone would use the less than 100% version. They should just remove the other two options. To use them (70%, 20% ?) is just gambling of the stupidest kind, but gambling easily avoided by using the 100% option.

Using Punch is a kind gamble, but not one you never have to make use of. Adding a Unique Variant to your gear is entirely optional, and you still get something for your money.

You said

You can't guarantee what Variant you'll get, you can only lock in what you've already got. You could spend 20k crowns getting that CTR High you wanted on your favorite bomb, or you could spend 500k and end with Beast Low. There is no guarantee, ever.

That’s true, but also wrong in two ways. First, as I said, you don’t need to do it. Second, you can guarantee your UV by simply buying it in the AH r from another player, which is what I do – no gamble, no risk, 100% guaranteed to get the UV you want.

As for Prize Boxes. Remember, these were added as an additional bonus incentive to buy energy. The transaction remains the same – someone pays real world cash for in-game energy (wealth). Prize boxes are just an additional reward during promotions.

I didn’t do Katastrophe at all pretty much for the reasons you stated – it can be a frustrating grind and not at all fun. If I want one of the rewards from such events, I’ll buy it directly from a player. That’s not gambling, though. That’s just an example of the randomization of the game that some players do not enjoy.

You certainly don't have to be “stupid lucky” to progress. Playing earns wealth, but buying it earns it faster, which is what allows the game and company behind it to continue to exist. If you begrudge them that, then you’ll soon have no game to complain about at all.

@ Fezhor

I get what you are saying. Yes, the game is, in order to make a profit, geared to milk us in some ways, and you feel that there is an over-reliance on “gambling” to achieve this, which is inappropriate for a game that targets teens.

I won’t argue against that, but teaching patience, delayed gratification, allocation of resources, and navigation of risk vs. reward decisions has its upsides too.

@Bopp:

The great and terrible thing to note is that a lot of that is how modern f2p gaming has grown the most and thrives- through lessons learned from the gambling industry. When f2p devs (well, the higher ups) find such people, they rejoice at catching "whales" who they can farm lots of money from. Thankfully, spiral knights is much tamer in that regard in comparison to other f2p games and is actually rather enjoyable to play.

That aside, games becoming more about exploiting people rather than giving them something enjoyable is partly why I left the game industry in the first place.

You seem to have some strong feelings that give you a certain perspective on the game, but please bear in mind that those feelings are subjective. Other players like me may not feel driven by a “competitive” desire to “contribute” equally or better in every mission. Even though you may feel compelled to obtain the High CTR or whatever because you feel the impact is so large, a player who doesn’t feel that same compulsion certainly doesn’t have to get them or can get them in time as they play.

Buying UVs in the auction house or directly through the Bazaar section of forums or trade chat may seem “ridiculous” to you, but again, that’s just a subjective opinion about the price. In my opinion, the prices are reasonable for the product, and it’s much more cost-efficient than trying to buy the UV you want from Punch. (i.e. gambling).

Concerning the prize boxes you mention, your own argument works against you here since prize boxes contain no gear that enables you to become more competitive. They contain mostly costumes and accessories. They are an entirely optional cosmetic to the game.

As for trading tokens from an event for box, here SK has actually gone out of its way to prevent gambling since tokens cannot be traded or bought.

The other boxes are like buying a cream filled pastry that has been packaged with a collectible Pokemon card. Are you buying it because you want to eat the pastry or because you want to collect the card? The answer will depend on the consumer and will often be a little bit of both. So, yes, some people may be buying the energy to get the box, but I’d still say it’s only gambling if you risk get nothing for your money, which is not the case here.

I confess to playing a bit of Devil’s Advocate here because I’m not a gambler myself in real life or in this game. I’ve seen gambling addictions destroy lives and I certainly wouldn’t want this game to be some kind of “gateway” into real life gambling. I just don’t see that it is.

Hmm, since when did CTR become the only thing that improves your damage out put and be competitive?

OOO gave you the option to not to be competitive, and if you want to be competitive, just stay out of LD and play Dota2 or LoL, I am sure the players in those games are looking forward to see you rant about the class imbalances. Ha, let's be honest, compare to those bastards, I am a saint.

And I am pretty sure damage output isn't the only thing you can contribute to the team, what about the bombing crowd control? The gun fire cover? There is more than one way to contribute other than spamming your CTR VH combuster, i am sure you should know this by now. C42 shivering to spamming DBB in HoI, blitzing in FSC to gunning turrents in narrow corners. I am never a swordman my self and I still feel accomplished by fufilling these auxiliary roles that you and many others will never take.

And as for gambling, again, if you can't handle the consequences of a failure, then don't gamble in SK at all, or in any game. And even if you do stay worse equiped, you can always find other means to improve your gear performance (add trinkets, use special weapons and what not). I never spend a single buck on SK and after 800 hours of in game time, I managed to stay comfortably in the End game. Sure I may not have crazy triple max UV chaos or CTR VH combuster, but I am happy and having fun. Spending 400 hours in FSC is alot better than hearing trash talk from Drakdog or contri in one LD game.

"Suffering, a man's anguish against his own incompetence."

@Midnight-Dj.Draycos:
He's not talking about LD at all, strangely enough.

It's fueled more by some kind of jealousy at gear stats. Which is weird because I have stopped rolling for UVs with the inclusion of pet perks, since combined with trinkets and armor sets, they can give me the max stats I want. You can make up for any lack of ASI/damage with trinkets, which are comparatively cheaper than rolling, apply to ALL weapons of that type, and easy to budget for.

And for PVP, that's skill-based as well, as much as the uninformed would like to say otherwise.