a review/critic about the old and new RSS

here is to much to say about the new and old radiant sun shards and about OOO right now. i´m gonna try to cover all about the rss bomb/s
---->first the old radiant sun shards:
yes it was OP! i´m not gonna discuss that but there was a lot of ways to nerf it instead of delete it and put a diferent bomb with the same name,
>lets say why it was OP;
- the shards could go further than a pistol bullet
- in close range it was able to make multiple hits to a creature with 124 to 273 damage per shard (in stratum 6 depending of the creature type), mostly 3 shards for something of the size of a zombie, 4-5 to a lumber or a troyan (but that requires more skill from the player) and used properly it was able to hit with 8 shards and OHKO the creature (but thats depend of the amount of players on the group)
- with a group of one or two players it could do a lot of damage and make quick kills but in a group of 3 or 4 players the damage wasn´t enough
- the mixed damage of elemental and piercing made it very useful to kill undeads and fiend in general and it wasn´t bad at all to kill three of the four families able to resist 50% of that mixed damage
>lets say why it was useful aside the damage
- the bomb was able to charge and explode fast making it usefull to hit switches, special blocks, break minerals and general uses. other bombs can´t do fast (try to break a mineral with a irontech)
- aside the damage it was useful to interrupt creature attacks
- it was the unique bomb able to do damage depending of the distance of the player and the monster, able to do multiple hits in close range and a few single hits in distance this was balanced by the blind spot making it not so useful as a radius bomb to hit a mob of creatures, the rss was able to hit only the monsters near the planted bomb
- it was extremely good (used properly) to kill these creatures that bombers can´t kill with other bombs like greavers (fast creatures able to attack faster than the time needed to charge and explode a bomb to attack them) and turrets at far range (it was usefull because it was able to interrupt the turret irrespective of the amount of damage doing)
- it was almost the unique bomb useful in pvp to made damage instead of only play to made control with Voltaic Tempest and found half of the other team able to resist shock due UV´s (the other damaging bombs take to long to charge and the bombers get hit in this time interrupting the charge besides that the enemy players are able to see and easy dodge the bomb radius in the floor)
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so now we see the basic pros and cons, lets try to nerf that old rss instead of delete it and made a new bomb
A-the first problem was a bomb with more range than a pistol, so the easy way to nerf it, is cutting the distance of the shards and making it have the range of a nitro. this solves the OVER-PISTOL problem and the noobs raging of it in pvp because they don´t understand how to dodge a linear hazard.
------> decrease the range of the shards
B-now the bomb was making to much damage for a 4* weapon - 263 to undead (the main use of this bomb was on FSC for the elemental to kill zombies and piercing damage for troyans and vana) and 275 to fiends in S6 -, it´s true but OOO can easy made it to do half of that damage 137(instead of less than one third, as it does now) and keep the 263 damage for a 5* version
------> make it deal half damage
a side note a used to make fast kills in FSC with the old RSS but i tried to made a room in a group of four in the depth 25 and it take me 20 twenty bombs to kill four zombies and the inpredictible knockback almost kill me
C- other way to keep the utility of the bomb was. made the shards deal less damage the further they travel, even deal 0 damage outside of the nitro radius keep them able to hit switches special blocks etc
bomb placed ------------------------------------ nitro range -------------------------------------------------- old shard limit
260 DMG--220----160---110---75---40 DMG ---0 DMG ------------------------------------------------- 0 DMG shard limit
this way keeps the utility over damage it used to had and remain the lot of damage in close range at the same time
------> made it do less damage per distance traveled
D- all above
these are realy easy ideas to made and more easy to implement instead of rework the entire bomb
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now lets see the new RSS (Rarely Sustainable and Sad :V)
the new bomb called RSS instead of a fragmentary bomb with utility and usefull damage like his predesessor is a buged mix with a area bomb and fragmented damage with less utility of a DBB resulting in a cluster bomb
------>the problems:
- the charge time is like the other bombs, there is no more a quick bomb for bombers (the gravers see bombers now as a feast)
- the knockback made the position of the monsters impredictible
- the shards in the floor take to long to expode and fast creatures get out of the area instantly (to be a piercing bomb to kill wolvers is awfull and it is totally useless to kill any fiend)
fiends move fast and cover a lot of area dodging, the first shard make devilites dodge like when they dodge a pistol bullet and they never gonna enter on the radius of the shards in the floor, for greavers the bomb is too slow and the distributed damage make just a litle bit of damage to a troyan, basicaly the fiend bonus is useless. even the stun don´t help here in any case a DBB is better or a shiver to make slow kills in less time without so much risk - the main utility of it for most players was the elemental damage in FSC and OOO decided to put his "problem.jpg" mask and made it a piercing bomb, now a lot of players who made many UV rolls with the gremlin have a useless UV in a useless bomb, (did I say it take 20 bombs to kill some zombies on depth 25 in a group of four? before it take 4 almost) and we know the gremlins dont give a medium or high or a good UV with the first try (it take like ten tries)
- for some reason creatures don´t get hit with more than 2 shards, this is maybe the knockback (this need more testing)
- the distance of the shards on the floor made almost imposible to made multiple hits on even the biggest creatures
- the poor distribution of damage, make it do very poor damage
------> the pros:
- the new bomb in a first look, looks able to made multiple hits if the creature is near a wall so the main combo is push the creatures with nitro or other bomb with good knockback and put the creatures on the wall and made multiple hits with the shards... but the problem is... the shards disappear when the bomb is placed near a wall, apparently this is a bug (maybe not)
- a fancy animation
- is good if you don´t have a DBB or a nitro (?) or if the player is not a bomber and don't know anything about bombs (:P)
- is good for the enemy team in pvp if you try to defend the point of your team (?)
< right now with the bugs i can´t see any pro fell free to sugest some and if they work i put them here later >
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EDIT/UPDATED-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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some awesome videos for the meorial of the bomb and for the people who thing it was a spamable bomb
lumbers
turrets note that range is aceptable for a bomb and is not a far range sniping
silent legion
FSC
there are good comparison on this thread with the new bomb
ok @Grandtheftgnome say something important. OOO never say the bomb was OP even if it was comparable with a 5* bomb before the rework, so i was thinking OOO (instead of fix 75% of the Blast Bomb/damaging bombs because they aren´t ussefull or they need a rework) just buried the best bomb for damage, at the same time the bomb that was requiring more skill over other bombs to let the other bombs be more sustainable and accurate to the (new simple) concept
i´m not saying OOO made that with a bad intention, instead they change the meaning of bombs or what some bombers understand
the old meaning of bombs was a area of effect/damage to made control of a area, or made a minor damage to more creatures than a sword or pistol were able to do, making a balance of;
- "swords deal good DMG for single targets or minor groups"
- "pistols deal damage to simgle targets at far distance with safeness (making a lesser damage to balance)"
- "bombs deal less damage than a sword but are able to affect much more creatures" making them more reliable to kill many creatures and less reliable to kill a few
OOO just simplificate that and changed the angle/point of view, the result is more restriction on the differences so, no more weapons between the specific diference of weapons
said that. again a short review of the new RSS at 5* (acording to the concepts)
- Nick sayd "bombs create areas of damage" the new RSS and the bomb added before to the game, the dark retribution, have blind spots on their areas (huge blind spots) and their balance in teory work because "the players put other bomb to cover that area" but that just work on teory, bombers have a gameplay based on kitting because they can´t block or use the shields in the same way swordies or gunners can (at any time during the attack without lossing the entire build of it) so for kit properly most times they can´t go back and place the bomb next to the creature (wich is now aggro) so they can´t cover the area without a risk. this don´t happend with the blast bombs because they push the creatures to a safe distance and let the player organisate the way he/she gonna attack and control bombs do control covering all the area so no problem there (DBB is a special bomb in t3 most of the creatures don´t get affected by the knockdown but the player can kit with no problems and the creatures follow him/her and receive the damage anyway)
even if they go and take the risk the inpredictible knockback of the NEW RSS make the creatures get scattered in a way that bombers can´t place the bomb properly.
a side note, the DR work because it charges and detonates faster and the player is able to cover the blind spor quickly, but the RSS line isn´t that fast to charge and explode. even the secondary shards take too long to explode but not enought to let the player made a mine filed (paradox?)
tl;dr the new rss is slow to cover the blind spot
ways to solve the basic problems aside the bugs
- the bomb have a small area of effect comparing the 5* with other 5* bombs and have a huge blind spot and the shards places in the floor have such a small area that make it unable to do multiple hits to a creature (this will work with low damage and multiple hits). worked as a bomb to made a distributed area of damage without multiple hits the damge isn´t enought (my matt says it do less than 200 damage per bomb to a creature but it still isn´t a lvl 10) even with the summed amount of damage of each part. co made it have more area on the land shard explocions or made it do more damage
------> low damage and/or bad distribution, - the stun is bugged and added the unpredictable knockback make this bome a hazard for the player, add poison to it instead of stun will work in any way better (silkwings + poison would made the fiend bonus more believable)
yeah my english isn't the best, is not my natal lenguaje. anyway i need to leave now i´m gonna fix the typing error and the orthographic errors later

"•is good for the enemy team in pvp if you try to defend the point of your team (?)"
Nope. They are TERRIBLE for LD. A haze bomb wokrs MUCH better for defending points. People walk all over these new shard bombs. I had fun trying to mkae the worst bomb ever, ISB, semi useful in LD. I got a consistent 4k damage with it, shocked lots of skolvers, and actually felt useful to my team. I even managed to get 8k damage once with the ISB, worst bomb ever. Now? It sucks so bad in LD it's no fun trying to make it work...

is good -->for the enemy team
that mean it isnt god for you team instead is soo bad that is good for the enemy team
is like a sarcasm, because its bugged and the shard on the floor dont appear if the player put the bomb in the point

when we got that change i actually tought it was pretty cool, my only shard type bomb was a ionized salt bomb i bought in the missions menu (so i didnt experimented with the previus bombs) and i hated it, charge time was so slow and it was hard to use in general, i lost interest in shard bombs
so yeah, when they changed it i tried it, and i was happy to see it charge faster, and i liked the type change cos it made the slime bonus have some sense
but then, i saw videos of the old rss, and i realized how diferent it was from mine, i realized it was actually a op bomb, and i regreted i made the mistake of buying the bad one that time
and now i realize, even if it didnt affected me directly i understand all that people, the rss got screwed, and a lot of players who loved that bomb got screwed too, of course, the uv giveaway just proves that, they know they made something bad to them, so they giving them a fruit basket and a sorry, cartman style
and reading this i really dont get it, those ideas sound so simpler than changing the bomb behavior i cant believe they didnt just lowered the power, maybe they felt changing the behavior wouldnt be so obviously making it less powerfull and they would evade getting a thousand rage messages, yet they getting them anyways xD
whatever, what makes me mad here is not just the bomb change, is the people who is actually happy about it just becouse they wont get bothered anymore by it in ld, thats selfish and a dumb way to think, like "now ill win cos my rival has cancer and wont compete" i think is so unfair and i hate it even though i never used the rss i feel insulted every time i see that
all this is making me get away from the game slowly, i feel whatever i do here might get totally changed tomorrow and all my hard work (and ce payed with hard real work too) is gonna be wasted, so yeah, whatever

Nick's argument wasn't even that it was OP, it was that it didn't act like a bomb, which is utterly ridiculous.

If being OP had nothing to do with it, why is the bomb hard-coded so only three shards can hit the same target?

I think it was removed partially for being "OP" although it really wasn't (it wasn't OP that is). That isn't what Nick told us though, he gave us the excuse of "not being bomb enough".

the problem accoding to nick was the range
ok, it had more range than a pistol but instead of make it have half range it was totally reworked to be a very close range AoD bomb (area of damage, like the dark retribution) but the way the damage is distributed only can affect something like the JK properly and even don´t deal enough damage
- nick sayd
- Reason for the changes:
The current shard-style bombs are functionally, not very bomb-like. They are the standouts in the system we’ve tried to build whereby: guns fire bullets, bombs create areas of damage, and swords do a mix of the two.Our intention with the shard line was to have them ‘spread out’ and hit multiple targets at once. So, we’re making this change because we want all bombs to feel like bombs- weapons that when used, create areas of damage on the playfield and feel like they pack a punch.
with this "guns fire bullets", i don´t find hard found the polaris, blitz, and biohazard reworked to shot bullets, instead of be weapons that deal dammage at long distance to single creatures
the "bombs create areas of damage" dont include control so all the mist bombs are in danger also or maybe they gonna receive knockback...
and the "swords do a mix of the two" means they or, don´t care making a balance between diferent types of weapons and keep the swords over pistols and bombs or, they gonna made all the swords have double or triple charge time, to be used more with the strikes instead of have the charge attack spammed like bombs. because right now the BTB charge deal to fiends over 1k damage in the same time it takes charge the new RSS and it do 300(?) damage (my bomb is not lvl 10 yet so i need more testing)
anyway i tested the 5* in the training room and it take two bombs to kill the Shufflebots, so i tested other bombs to compare the damage and is comparable with 0* lvl 10 proto killing them with 2 bombs alike

ATH is not the proper place to test, it's about the same as Tier -1, meaning 5* gear is scaled down horribly.
Try it somewhere in T3 to get accurate tests.
Though I have to admit, shard bombs have low damage, with 2 detonations to ("Try") and make up for it.

@Stingz as is not level 10 yet, I don´t know the final damage it achieves. whenever it will reach the lvl 10, i´m gonna put the damage it does here. but for now I'm leveling the piercing and the elemental so it gonna take longer that it should. be the way OOO makes the things
anyway the other 5* made one hit kill to the Shufflebot in the training room even 3* damage bombs made one hit kill there

you have made some interesting points there, but i wonder why OOO didnt move this thread into Arsenal, and moved another shard bomb review http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/61872 by SKy-Hawk to the Arsenal Forum

he made the review only for the bomb in pvp, i don't play much pvp so the bomb is changed in a way that affect all the game for my principal weapon
about the thread, I don´t know, I try to keep my rage out of here and try to made a good analysis even i made the thread at the next day to not add rage, but it looks like only a few people give me a responce, so....
or the thread is too boring including the title to the point that even the admins don´t enter to read
or i made a general talk about bombing instead of a review of the rss
or some silent admin liked the post and dont moved it :P
one of the main problems aside of the bomb is the weapon and the players who feel to attached to it, It required skill and knowledge about the creature movements to use it properly, that make the players who know how to use it fell it more suitable and fell atracted to it, this way making a complete change OOO ?!$$ of a lot of players who used this weapon as their main weapon and to conform these players they give us some uv tickets but thats the same as say "we screwed up, take this and dont say anything" and they give us the wrong type damage in purpose to delay the proper complains at the same time they add a horrible promo as a distraction to silence the opinions