Spiral Knights - Question about damage bonuses "Are damage bonuses a fixed number rather than percentage increase?"

Question about damage bonuses "Are damage bonuses a fixed number rather than percentage increase?"

7 replies [Last post]

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 16:01

Amnimonus

I've been wondering for a while how big are damage bonuses in term of percentage but after doing a bit of tests in the guild training halls that damage bonuses seem to be fixed by a rather constant number.

For sealed/brandish line swords every low bonus seems to add 20 damage on average with the exception of the levi and flourish which seem to get 12 instead of 20 (despite the difference between a 5* brandish and levi is 7 damage).
when it comes to special damage bonus (piercing/shadow/elemental) it seems to be a solid 61 damage for all swords and seems to be independent from all other damage bonuses (tested it with the wraith cloak damage bonus)

Overall brandishes seem to get the advantage in damage bonus despite only dealing 7 more damage than the levi and 50 less damage than heavy type weapons

As for gun it seem to vary more for every low damage bonus 5* antiguas and blitz seem to get 3 additional damage while vailance get 6 and every other gun seems to get 10
Thing also get a little weird with the special damage bonuses heavier guns get the same 61 damage bonus as swords but for alchemers and polaris it seems to drop the low damage bonus to 6 instead of 10. Blitz and antiguas get and addition 49 damage and also there damage bonus doulble from 3 to 6.

Here blitz needle and antiguas have the main advantage because thers special damage bonuses are much bigger in proportion to there base damage (80% damage increase per bullet compare to the 47% for most other guns). And on that note guns in general get a larger special damage bonus than swords giving them an advantage.

Over all this seems a unbalance between guns and sword and even between guns themselve but over all this lead me to the may question of my thread.

How are damage bonus determined over all? Is it a predetermined fixed amount for all weapons of or weapons of a similar type? Or are the algorithms for weapon damages more complex than that?

Note weapon used in this short study: acheron,GF,DA,Volt edge,BtB, Rocket hammer,Levi, Polaris, Nova driver, Blitz, Sentenza, Callahan, Valiance
Note: didn't have enough bombs to include them and may make this into a suggestion later

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 16:09

Krakob

We already figured it out! Each level of damage bonus gives us a 4% increase in damage, though this is before defence is applied, however. The increase in damage actually inflicted is often greater than 4% since defence is (most often) merely subtractive.

Bear in mind that the bonuses add together, rather than being applied after each other. For example, two units of damage bonus will give a damage multiplier of 1+(0.04*2) rather than 1.04*1.04.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 16:32

Bopp

data

To add to what Krakob wrote:

Read the wiki page "Abilities". Read the data sets linked from there, such as the Lancer Knightz data. These will give you a phenomenological understanding of how damage bonus affects the numbers that flash on your screen.

Read the wiki page "Defense", to get a more thorough (but still incomplete) view of how defense and damage are actually calculated. They are as Krakob says.

The good news is that you can stop collecting data, unless you want to help us puzzle out the damage calculation below the "critical threshold".

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 17:29

Amnimonus

Ty Forgot about that wiki page

@krakob I didn't put to consideration at what depth the tier 3 training hall is modeled after and didn't put in consideration the defense of the punching bags but well here an example

In the training hall against a neutral opponent the

DA does 242 damage without any bonus, deals 263 (+21) with a low bonus, 283(+20 or 41 total) with med, 302 (+19 or 60 total) with high and 361 (+119 total) with max

Another weapon of the same damage type

Voltedge deals 198 with 0 bonus, deals 219 (+21) with low , 246 (+27 or + 48 total) with med , 264 (+18 or 66 total) with high and 319 (+121 total) for max

DA (21damage bonus)/ 242 base damage = about 8.7% damage increase for low and grand total 119/242 49% damage bonus for max (not far from 52% damage if you add each low individually)

Voltedge (21)/198= about 10% increase in damage for low and 121/198= about 60% for max

What i was trying to point at was that each weapon seems to have a similar boost in damage despite dealing significantly different damages so either each weapon has it on damage rate increase or weapon don't have a rate and weapon each have a some what constant locked bonus for all weapons.

I'm wondering if there anything I might be missing (defense might factor into it but then again I was attack only punching bags and I assume they all have the defense) because if the damage bonus don't have a percentage rate of increase then that would explain some of the imbalance of damage between weapons.

Edit: for got to mention about the defense page on special damages this sort of explain the the constant 61 damage bonus except for blitz needle but that were thing get confusing

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 20:17

Poopsie

Hmm.... Actually...

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/75702 -> Zeddy did extensive chart of damage on tier 3 guild training hall

Let's start with vulnerable against damage.
DA does 304 damage on monster vulnerable against. 324 with low bonus and so on. DA has the split damage with equal bars.
Let's make that constant 61 number is 62 (just because it's easier to do calculation)
We know that the increase damage bonus per point is 4% so..
normal part + elemental part = damage
(1.00a - (b + 62)) + (1.00a - b) = 304, where a = DA raw damage for each damage type, b = monster defense (vulnerable-against)
(1.04a - (b + 62)) + (1.04a - b) = 324, and b + 62 = monster defense (neutral-against)
Solving this we know that a = 250 (ish), b = 67 (ish)

now with monster neutral-against, using (1.00a - (b + 62)) + (1.00a - (b + 62))
non damage bonus (1.00 * 250 - 129) + (1.00 * 250 - 129) = 242
low damage bonus (1.04 * 250 - 129) + (1.04 * 250 - 129) = 262
med damage bonus (1.08 * 250 - 129) + (1.08 * 250 - 129) = 282
high damage bonus (1.12 * 250 - 129) + (1.12 * 250 - 129) = 302
max damage bonus (1.24 * 250 - 129) + (1.24 * 250 - 129) = 362

So there, not that much diff from original damage, and I am too lazy to calculate voltedge.
However, for monster resist-against, they seems taking 0.16 damage of originally vulnerable-against monsters.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 20:13

Amnimonus

@poosie

I actually found that a little while ago and the thread about defense is actually based on that thread.

Over all zeddy's would have been useful if only I had found it earlier because it prove the point I was speculating about that for the most part damages bonus are linear and the linear increase is constant on most weapon (unless devs say other wise) and for the most part how that tremendously give blitz an overwhelming advantage compare to all other weapons (could also help for a future balancing thread in terms of damages).

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 20:23

Poopsie

The imbalances...

Silly thing about this update -> http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/53117
- All handguns have had their damage increased by 10% and their charge attack damage increased by 20%

Blitz Needle obviously doesn't need this update. Yet, Blitz Needle Charge gets 31% more damage boost (1.1 * 1.2 = 1.31)
We hit vanaduke at 208 max dmg pre-update, but now, we do 289.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 23:10

Sir-Pandabear

Actually, that patch note doesn't tell the whole truth.

Before the update, charge attacks for guns did 150% the damage of a regular shot. Post update, they did 170% of the (also buffed) regular attack, which wasn't, strictly speaking, buffed 10% at all. So the 20% actually refers to the difference between 150% and 170%.

I don't think I actually found a consistent number regular gun attacks were buffed by.

Also, this thread on wiki editors is probably where I do the most explaining about the whole damage bonus and defence thing.

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Question about damage bonuses "Are damage bonuses a fixed number rather than percentage increase?"