Spiral Knights - Pery's Rambling: Discussion About Difficulty in SK

Pery's Rambling: Discussion About Difficulty in SK

8 replies [Last post]

Sat, 03/28/2015 - 08:29

Pery-Alaois

Let's talk difficulty! :)
The difficulty system is flawed; elite mode just has artificial difficulty. This isn't me whining, ranting, or complaining; it's me... rambling. Elite mode seems hard, but at the end of the day, it's still easy, just with actual decent loot, and more frustration to less experienced players. It doesn't make it easier for monsters to hit players, it just makes them deal more damage. Now, with that said, this raising of stats is an important part of making a game more difficult, but by itself, it just fails.
Want a good example of difficulty used right? Here it is: the tier system.
The tier system makes each tier actually more difficult than the last. Not just by raising stats, but giving monsters better powers.
Tier 1: A wolver can dash.
Tier 2: The Alpha Wolver can teleport.
Tier 3: ALL wolvers can teleport.
It also gives monsters more attacks. Not just more damage, but with a different tactic in it.
Tier 1: Gun Puppies shoot single bullets slowly.
Tier 2: Gun Puppies shoot groups of three bullets at a faster rate.
Tier 3: Gun Puppies shoot a spread of 5 bullets.
Not only do monster deal more damage with their attacks in higher tiers, it's easier for monsters to hit players with their attacks. This is real difficulty.

"NO, this is spar-!"
-Pery
PS To the Devs: You guys don't need to make a whole update about this now, but at least consider what I wrote when ya'll make more cool content.

Sat, 03/28/2015 - 10:58

Bopp

right

When difficulties were added to the game (2013-07-30) there was a lot of discussion of this. For example, players suggested that elite wolvers should have the old AI (where they track their targets during attacks).

It would be nice if the difficulties were qualitatively different, not just quantitatively different. But this takes much more effort from the developers.

And a minor correction: Don't Tier-1 gun puppies actually have a very high rate of firing?

Sat, 03/28/2015 - 11:03

Skepticraven

↓

@Bopp

"Don't Tier-1 gun puppies actually have a very high rate of firing?"

Yes, but the overall bullets per minute increases per tier. Additionally, howlitzer heads can't aim very well in T1.

Mon, 03/30/2015 - 05:54

Malware-Exe

"It doesn't make it easier for monsters to hit players"

(further down the same post)

"it's easier for monsters to hit players with their attacks"
...you have confused me.

Mon, 03/30/2015 - 06:32

Hexzyle

@Faeyd

Because you took his text completely out of context.

Here it is, back in context:

"Elite mode seems hard, but [...] it doesn't make it easier for monsters to hit players"

"in higher tiers, it's easier for monsters to hit players with their attacks."

Mon, 03/30/2015 - 09:40

Fehzor

I've thought a lot about this, actually. My first thoughts were on the artificial difficulty, which is primarily discussed above- monsters on elite mode are the same monsters, but with a bit more health, attacking power and loot.

My later thoughts have been more about how it creates a sort of binary difficulty system in the way that most players seem to be using the difficulty system-

Normal mode = easy mode; for players that are new and uncertain; sometimes best for farming events

Advanced mode = very few players ever play this

Elite mode = farming mode; you know what you're doing and just want loot faster

The reason for this is in part because of the artificial difficulty but also in part because of the way rarities, crowns, materials and whatnot are handed out- you get more on harder difficulties.. which raises the question of whether "normal" mode is easier than hard mode or just grindier. Sure you can get through it easier, but completing content is NOT progressing in Spiral Knights- collecting gear is progressing because collecting gear is first necessary and second having fun. This is in itself fairly backwards- a harder difficulty system typically represents a harder time getting through, learning, you name it. An easier system almost certainly shouldn't somehow be more grind-based than a more difficult system.

I have in the past posted a solution to this problem, which I will share because it is relevant to the topic at hand-

Normal = about the same as it is now maybe a little "harder", but with only slightly less loot than current elite mode.

Advanced = current elite mode difficulty and then some, same loot as current elite + chance for rare+cool stuff.

Elite = shadow lair difficulty, slightly more loot than current elite, guaranteed rare+cool stuff every x levels.

Where rare+cool stuff are gear drops that are reskinned to look more awesome, like darkfang. The idea being that per time spent etc. normal mode would give the best ratio of time in to gain out, but advanced and elite would grant you the occasional untradeable darkfang shield or so that would make up for this ratio in the eyes of players willing to step up their game a bit. Advanced mode would become useable because elite mode would be ridiculously hard whereas advanced mode would be an all-around farming mode for experienced players.

Tue, 03/31/2015 - 17:34

Halandin

And on that new elite

And on that new elite difficulty, more rads are dropped, perhaps in all of tier 3. Tier 2 on elite would maybe be like tier 3 on advan or elite now, and more orbs. Of course, higher difficulty=more sparks used. :D

Tue, 03/31/2015 - 21:51

Hexzyle

Instead of simply modifying the crown drops, HP, and damage of enemies to higher numbers, I reckon the spawns themselves should change.
For instance, on a bout 3 of a Fiend Arena on normal, some of the Greavers that spawn would have a chance to be replaced by regular devilites. On Elite, you have chances of double spawns.
Things like Gremlin Knockers would be more frequently replaced by Gremlin Thwackers, Retrodes and Scuttlebots by Mecha Knights, and sometimes even Lumbers. Sometimes zombies might even be replaced by deadnaughts at a fairly low chance. Lichen would spawn in greater numbers.

Another problem is we simply don't have enough monsters in this game, so often the only way to makes things more difficult is just to spawn more things, instead of spawning more (legitimately) difficult things

Wed, 04/01/2015 - 18:47

Halandin

Yeah, more monster types/more

Yeah, more monster types/more monster differentiation would help. I think lichens do this best--the status variants all have different "powers" that match their statuses. Oilers can set players on fire and get elemental resistance when on fire, quicksilvers have the mad dashing about while healing themselves and damaging both players and other monsters, poison ones have the spin attacks shooting out spines... The colonies and giant colonies actually have new attacks that make them harder. I'd love to see the other status lichens get colony forms, not just the regular lichens (Toxilargo doesn't upgrade from toxigels like regular giant colonies), then there are the C42 only toxoils with 2 statuses. Lots of possibilities there.

And hey, why not add gremlin ninjas and morterfires into levels other than OCH? And status gremlins don't actually exist except for knockers and the laughably easy to kill flamethrowers.

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Pery's Rambling: Discussion About Difficulty in SK