Dash and Bash feedback [updated for round 2]
Do, 05/09/2013 - 15:12
Dash: I was a little worried about how this particular feature would effect balance, but the invulnerability is short enough, and the cooldown long enough, to make it practical only for what it was intended for: dodging a single, short-range attack. +1 to that. I was a little surprised that the cooldown icon is down at the bottom with the vials--it's big enough to still draw your attention, just didn't feel it quite made sense with so much of the character info being shifted to the top (I kind of wish the status icons got the same treatment, though--an icon of the same size, counting down, at the bottom, rather than their current placement with the new UI, which are much harder to see). I would also add: I kind of wish that you could dash in a direction independent of your facing. I think it would add a bit more utility if you could, for example, dash backwards but maintain your facing forwards--that way you could attack with a gun while you dash-retreat from a baddie, or dodge a heavy hit from something and then immediately give it a face full of sword. [EDIT: you CAN dodge in a direction other than the direction you are facing, it's just really hard to pull off depending on your control scheme.]
[EDIT: a guildie just said, "I'll probably never use dash, because I'm always facing what I'm fighting."]
Bash: it was a little difficult to judge damage while juggling remapping the keys (as I mentioned on the official testing thread), but it seemed reasonable--just a bit, not enough to make it practical to shield-bash a critter to death. Also, the stun from the bash had enough AoE to make it a nice addition for strategic play, particularly against small mobs. Also also, I had assumed that losing half your shield strength for a bash meant that you could bash twice in a row before needing to recharge, but in testing it seemed like you could only bash once, from full to half, before a recharge. I can see the logic of that, but question: what happens if your shield has already been damaged? Bash could be a very useful tool of last defense, like Dash (i.e., I'm going to willingly give up the last half of my shield power to Bash some enemies, leave myself open, but hopefully kill them while they are stunned), but it loses some of that utility in needing to start with a full shield. Last thing: the attack animation for Bash felt a little slow. I can understand wanting to make it a bit slower than Dash--it is a type of attack, after all--but it felt just a touch TOO slow.
Anyway, will go back for more testing.
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Version 2.0
Dash/Dodge: First, and this is a tiny thing, but I do think it makes a difference whether the finalized move is presented to the players as 'dash' or 'dodge'--it's still listed in the keybindings as 'dodge,' despite the official write-ups that refer to it as 'dash.' I think 'dodge' is more in keeping with what seems to be the intent, but 'dash' seems more reflective of how it actually works--more active/aggressive than simply dodging. It's only a semantic difference, I know, but semantics are important as they will, in part, shape how players think about the move's functionality in-game.
Otherwise, I agree with others that have stated before that the period of invincibility in the first version was too long, and I still think it is too long in the new version. Just a quick example: running the t3 slime daily prestige, with one dash/dodge I could run through the full spread of projectiles from 4 jelly turrets and get safely to the other side without a scratch--it totally eliminated the need for a shield, except perhaps as a stop-gap during cooldown, and of course you get significantly MORE out of dash/dodging because it can put you in position to attack a turret at close range. I would recommend shortening the period of invincibility further--i.e., maybe just the second or so that your character is airborne, just enough to dodge a single attack. Also, I'm not wild about the new effect to indicate when you are dash/dodging. I think the previous version's sparkle effect was clear enough, and as I think was noted on the official thread, the bright blue looks a little strange, especially when compared with the bash animation, which is much more in keeping with the look of the effects we currently have in-game.
Bash: After further testing, I think the KB on bash could be upped just a bit to make it more on-par with dash/dodge in terms of functionality. Also, I started to wonder why the shield doesn't continue to take damage for you as you bash. I bashed by some jellies that were just outside the AoE, and they spun up to hit me while I scooted across the room. Thinking in larger terms about the use of your shield for more than just straight defense, I think it would make more sense if you were still shielded as you bash, since you are actively using your shield, after all. Additionally, that would make the cooldown of having to let your shield recharge more meaningful, as it would a.) protect you as you bash, and b.) a poorly executed bash could mean breaking your shield, or at least leaving you with a longer than normal cooldown time.
Other changes: I like the graphics changes to inventory items, I think they help make the look of the new UI make more sense. And while I don't need the graphical representation of damage type/defense type on my gear, I can appreciate the idea of a quick, subtle reference for new players as to what does what--especially while figuring out how recipes and crafting work. Similarly, I will say that you really get a feeling for the weapons when the new graphics pops up as you change--the combuster just LOOKS burny, etc. Also, and this could be my imagination, but the time the weapon graphic stays 'popped up' felt like it had been decreased a bit, which I liked as well.
Really the only graphics change that didn't totally work for me was how the new mat icons look when they appear as a drop. Looking at them closely in your inventory the new art is clear and nice, but when they appear as a drop the graphics are a bit muddy--they are much smaller and harder to distinguish. Similar problem: they also don't seem quite in keeping with the graphical changes we got to vials, etc. with the new UI because of the black background.
S'all from me for now, looking forward to the new features.
Do, 05/09/2013 - 17:00
#2
The announcements state that dashing occurs in the direction you're moving rather than facing unless you're not moving, is this not the case? They way you talk about it it sounds as if it's not the case.
Do, 05/09/2013 - 17:06
#3
Dash doesn't effect blocks and minerals? Aww, that could have been the bombers-take-years-to-break-through-anything fix.
Do, 05/09/2013 - 17:29
#4
Its really good
The dash and bash mechanics are spot on, and great fun to use. However, i think that the dash ability needs a shorter cool down. As of right now the shield bash takes at the least 5 seconds to cool down, the dash mechanic takes 8 seconds. I would think that if you reversed the time intervals, made dash 5 seconds and bash 8 seconds to cool down then the abilities would be perfect for full release.
Other than that the player model design for the movements, and new ui for control schemes for the options menu is very well done.
Do, 05/09/2013 - 18:12
#5
@zeddy: I stand corrected,
@zeddy: I stand corrected, you DO dodge in the direction of movement, not facing, so it IS possible to dodge away from a target while maintaining facing. I missed this the first few go-rounds as a single button push will dodge in the direction you are facing, and playing on WASD it's rather awkward to pull off since you have to take your fingers away from the direction controls to hit the dodge button. I suppose what I had hoped for was something a bit more simple, like double-tapping to dash in a certain direction--anything to make it easier to smoothly integrate with attacks, shielding, etc. Regardless, edited OP to reflect this.
@klipik: Yes, it definitely does not effect blocks and minerals at the moment.
Do, 05/09/2013 - 18:39
#6
@Narfle
Here's a good control scheme;
Movement (WASD), attack (Left Mouse), Weapon switch (Mouse Wheel), Pills and Vials (1-4), Dash (Right Mouse), Bash (R or E), Shield (Space).
That's what i use and it works great.
Fr, 05/10/2013 - 07:08
#7
@glitched: It's much easier to use dodge with this control scheme, true, but much more awkward to shield--especially shielding while moving, which people need to do all the time in LD (though I guess the jury is still out as to whether or not DnB will be added there).
Assuming you are either playing solely on keyboard, or using the default mouse movement scheme, dodge is still a bit lacking. I mean, getting to the same level of utility on pure keyboard you would have to, what, use WASD for movement, arrows for facing? Otherwise movement and facing are connected, as with the default mouse movement controls, and then you run into the same problem with only being able to dodge toward the direction you are facing. I played exclusively with the old default keyboard-only control scheme for more than two years--arrows for movement + facing, Z and X for attack and shield, and space to change weapons--and I will say that juggling arrows, WASD (to move without changing facing), attack, shield, dodge, and bash would be very, very difficult. I would be more likely to just not use dodge at all, and if we do get some baddies that somehow necessitate the use of either dodge or bash in order to beat them, that would be a big problem.
I think what it boils down to is that the additions of dodge and bash add two more 'premium' actions to the mix with attack and shield, but playing WASD with a standard mouse you only have two 'premium' buttons. It is indicative of a small problem that players are needing to parse out a custom control scheme to make all four actions work in concert with one another--I mean, the whole idea of having suggested 'default' controls is that the average player will be able to pick up the game and make everything work without a lot of tweaking.
Anyway, I'm assuming that OOO are gathering info on not only how players are using the new features, but also the control schemes they are using, and I will be interested to see what the verdict is on the final, official default controls. Final thought, however: looking ahead at battle sprites, we're going to be getting another three actions to juggle, and I still think that, say, double clicking a direction to dodge, double clicking shield to bash, would be a more efficient solution than having to bind a key that will take one hand or the other away from the basics--movement, attack and shield.
Fr, 05/10/2013 - 07:41
#8
True
Everyone uses there own control scheme, example i find it wierd that most pc gamers use Ctrl as croutch and shift as sprint in most games. However, i find Space to be the easiest form of shielding just because the way my hand rests on a keyboard. I can hold shift and use my fingers for WASD movement.
I use WASD to move up, down, left, right respectfully and use my mouse to aim my character (which way hes facing) this allows me to move away or twords an enemy but always keeping my knight facing it. Granted to dodge backwards you need to tap in the oposite direction your knight is facing but i find it fairly easy to do. (Its more like strafing anyway)
Fr, 05/10/2013 - 10:06
#9
I would suggest playing the
I would suggest playing the highest level content possible before coming to a conclusion of dash and bash
Fr, 05/10/2013 - 11:25
#10
Who is coming to conclusions? We're just discussing our experience of using new features that are still in development (and mostly about how to find a control scheme that makes their use make sense), just like you. All of this could be totally different when it's finally implemented in-game, anyway.
Fr, 05/10/2013 - 16:11
#11
I would hope so
I would hope so
Fr, 05/10/2013 - 17:36
#12
my 2 cents
I have, made two SL and at least 4 vana using the new mechanics...
Shield Bash is useless most of the times and when are cornered, you don't have your shield anymore and evade doesn't work if there's 3 zombol hugging you so :S
I use it mostly to get over traps and evade in-coming hits, but I rarely *have* to use it in a fight... I use it cause I'm on the server test and have unlimited rez >.<
Fr, 05/10/2013 - 23:29
#13
In my conclusion with Dash
In my conclusion with Dash and what not, I think Dash is fine, but as for the Bash thing, it needs a lot of work. Its all too similar to the Dash skill movement just without the speed to propel you forward as fast, I was expecting your character to literately back hand the creature you are fighting against just to get them off of you, or to get you those extra 2 seconds that can save your life.
Dash +1 great movement, but i would suggest limiting the cool down to 5 seconds.
Bash 0 throwing your character forward into a mob of creatures, shows that this ability isn't that good yet, needs some work and a animation skill like showing the character swing his/her shield at the enemy. Like something funny, for example if i was to do it I would show my character taking the shield off quickly and smacking the enemy, then promptly put it back on while moving away.
Sa, 05/11/2013 - 17:25
#14
You know, I think I'd find it
You know, I think I'd find it cool to have a double-tap dash option instead of remapping a key button to do it.
As in, tap the keyboard any one of the WASD or arrow keys twice to dash. Like in Kirby or the Smash Bros. series.
But that's just me.
So, 05/12/2013 - 08:01
#16
@Flamee
Double tap apparently
@Flamee
Double tap apparently too hard for Angry Birds generation
Di, 05/14/2013 - 09:12
#17
OP updated for round 2 of testing.
Di, 05/14/2013 - 15:39
#18
I agree, no blue glow!
It looks stupid, i like the way dash/dodge looked before it was changed. (Lines mean its moving faster)
Edited OP slightly: for some reason I had it in my head that shield-bouncing took some of your shield's strength, but of course it doesn't. No need to balance energy use of Bash with bouncing.
Regarding Dash (Dodge, I guess I should use the proper term): after playing several floors, I found that in its current incarnation it was actually more useful for leaping in on baddies rather than away, which is kinda antithetical. I could, for example, avoid floor hazards/enemy attacks by dodging IN on an enemy, quickly closing distance to get in a baddie's face--which seems like it should more be the purview of using Bash, unless the feature was going to have a different name--"Charge" is what immediately comes to mind, but that's already taken. That doesn't negate its possible use in actually dodging, but again, having to dodge in the direction you are facing limits the utility a bit.
Regarding Bash: two additions, the first being that I wanted to mention that the animation started to glitch pretty badly when running in a party--shield wouldn't raise, no energy field, just suddenly sliding across the floor and stunning things at the end (didn't happen when I was running solo). Second, I kind of wish that Bash would cause 1 hit to non-enemy objects, like blocks and switches--didn't seem to effect anything other than enemies. Being able to cause 1 hit per Bash would add some great possible mechanics: you could, for example, bash through normal blocks/boxes to stun baddies on the other side, or slide across the floor to hit a switch at the end (might be some neat opportunities for puzzles/traps that involve Bashing over a floor trap to hit a switch).