Oh thank goodness, I can now agree almost entirely with this update.... I'm so relieved to hear that! Actually, I agree with pretty much 100% of this now... its seriously the change this game has been needing, most of it. Namely the crafting orb part, provided those drop at a reasonable rate or from a reasonable source, i.e. at regular intervals, rather than like equipment drops... Lotteries feel grand when you win them, but not so much when you're buying tickets that almost always fail.

I'm unsure on the revival system, and whether I'll like that, or whether I'll miss it, but it sounds like a definite positive, despite what many would have you believe... The heat reviving really brought out the sociopath in many, and made players advance beyond their skill curve.

I don't have access myself to the test server, but to be honest the level restriction sounds pretty bad. Doesn't this mean that, for say, middle ranged missions, better players can't help out newbies because they have crafted all their previous armour and gear into their say 4* or 5* armour?

This means that I will have to buy new gear and stuff if I wanna run Jelly as a 4*, etc, if I don't already have it.

No. The restriction means you have to reach a certain rank to be able to equip the next star level of gear. Once you've achieved that rank, you can wear the gear wherever you wish.

Let's be honest here, the new loot system's only reason for implementation is to block dead alt drags at vanaduke. This also includes the reasoning for the rev system it seems (Besides making underranks at vana feel their own pinch of death rather than crying for HP revives). It makes too much sense for it to be otherwise...

Power users do dailies of alt drags where they drag 1 to 3 dead alts that tab them while the alts collect money & heat. This allows the power user to collect 2 to 4x more cr than usual, and allows for infinite abuse. This patch is so the abusers of alt dragging are on the same level as others, which I entirely agree with and don't blame OOO for enforcing in the patch.

The idea of being forced to collect your own loot and the removal of hp sharing is to make alt dragging impossible. Alt dragging requires you to keep your alts dead at some points, and you can't control them while you play. This patch seems to make unmanned and dead players not earn squat rightfully so.

They will never expire, and they will sit there until everyone gets on the elevator and goes to the next depth.

Also, Thank you for the changlelog!

@Nick
A problem shared is a problem halved. Tell why do you want to separate loot and we will find another solution. How would we reach some achievments linked with revives?

It's fail. Imagine you got 5* equipment. And after patch you will available to wear not higher than 4*, but you have only your 5* and it's too expensive to get equipment that enough to finish missions that will give you access to 5*.

One of the effects of crushing alts is obviously lowering CE prices, since alts can bring in more crowns into the system than expected, thus causing inflation. Also, in all honesty, the seperate instancing of loot, now no longer with any time limit, is not that bad despite the possibility of needing to retrace a few steps. True, it MIGHT encourage people to solo to save themselves the frustration, but I mainly party with people for having extra people, more firepower, better synergy and more successful fights usually. And the company. FSC only has one open level while everything else is fairly linear.

In some ways, the instancing would actually encourage parties to keep to gether to a degree while retaining some area coordination. What I mean is that in places like decon zones, parties won't try to seperate as often, and can also pick an area in the map to spread out a bit but not scatter. One part of the party can retrace the steps of the other part that goes on ahead to clear out the rest ahead. By the time the latter is done fighting and the rest catch up, they'll still have saved time; maybe not as much as now, but still a good deal. In some ways, this might tighten party coordination in larger, open maps.

Also, bear in mind Elite difficulty, which I'm fairly certain people will be playing. All considering it, it's usually best to keep together, than apart, particularly in most decon zones; less on get's overwhelmed by Thwackers.

One thing I would suggest though. Add a radar option that'll show pockets of loot that haven't been picked up by you, at least one that displays this when you're out of visual range. By pockets, I mean the whole pack of loot that a single monster would drop. This way, players have some notification that there's loot they haven't picked up and they know where it is, rather than wasting time checking if they haven't picked everything up.

on a final note, with the new update, I think I'll need to hop back, and also get a better feeling for the new revive system.

It's not that easy. Considering that back then you to progress had to just have 2* and 4* equipment (those were days...) and not do some missions. Which now will strip you out of your gear, I mean, come on, that's just ridiculous - low-rank T3 now might as well don't bother and either quit completely or redo the character from scratch

BTW, Nick, while you at editing drops, could you disable enemy drops in Unknown Passage? It's rather sad to see that level that meant to be a gauntlet, fight for survival nets you tons of money and heat

Also, please, revert heart display, it's really confusing and annoying to see hearts that you picked up but not your teammates, so they stay there

Also, please, lower brightness of red lights. Or replace it with sound buzzer. And make threshold lower - it's 33%, not 10, or whatever it was supposed to be

Also, make that when you pick up something, everyone in party gets it. Instanced loot - bad Bad BAD and never should be here

And obligatory complaint about disabling health share revive - yeah, we making ourselfs weaker by splitting health - but that's a risk we can take - to get backup up and heal up

Also, gold health! A whole 61 HP. Through, I guess, by getting 5* HP boost perk you can get extra golden bar (Base 5 + Ancient Set 16 + 2x6 HP Trinket + Scarlet Shield 2 + HP Boost 5 )

Making crowns and heat not expire was a good idea if you're still going to "fix" what isn't broken. But please do not remove health revives.

Now, I know that many of my previous posts were inflammatory. But this does not invalidate my position. The arguments behind them, as far as I know, have not been refuted as of yet. Allow me to give you a look into the psychology of the average player through a few scenarios, explaining what would happen whether revives were there or not.

Scenario 1: One good player is in a Royal Jelly run with three guys that are sucking. The player has tried and tried to get them to try some different strategies than "run in and spam attack button", but they just mouth off at him.

With health revives the player can choose to revive them. However, he can also choose not to revive them. Not only will this help the good player survive, this action will send them a message, and if they kick him out of the group, they'll just end up dying, and the one player will be nice and happy with weaker monsters or possibly better group members. If the other guys start begging for revives, the player can still choose to ignore them, or tell them why he is ignoring them; the former is more practical if mobs are about.

Without health revives, the player can only revive the other guys by using mist. This won't stop said bad players from begging. Players that mouth off when someone suggests a different strategy are often selfish players as well. So really, the only thing that's going to change is what resource gets drained; without health revives, it's energy that gets drained instead. Of course, there's always the choice not to revive said selfish players, which should happen anyway.

What's the difference between the two? Instead of health getting drained, mist gets drained. For the most part, people are going to quit out of the game when their mist gets low. This will actually result in less people purchasing Crystal Energy with crowns. But this part isn't what I'm worried about. The first scenario I presented is very similar to the one Nick was likely thinking of when he mentioned party members "getting repeatedly one-shotted in combat". The next scenario is a little more likely.

Scenario 2: A player that's mainly a swordsman is in a Deconstruction Zone or the room in Ghosts In The Machine that's similar to a Deconstruction Zone, and the gunslinger, while he's good for the most part, had the ill fortune to get cornered in a room with about six or seven enemies right after he dashed away from a bullet. It happens to the best of us. The swordsman has a heavy sword and can help the gunslinger by knocking the enemies away, but will likely take some damage in the process due to turrets and such- and he's low on health, at about 3 pips.

With health revives, the swordsman would gladly knock the enemies away. If he goes down, the Gunslinger can still pick him up with all the enemies out of the way, and then the swordsman can get to holding off the mobs with knockback and shielding while the Gunslinger picks them off, first the turrets, then the close-range mobs. That's teamwork.

Without health revives, the swordsman's choice is harder. Should he die or should the gunslinger die? Neither of them wants to waste their mist, there's crafting to do later and the next stage might have a danger room! If the swordsman chooses not to save the gunslinger and instead just go off and get hearts, the gunslinger, of course, has to shell out mist or get no money. If the swordsman chooses to save the gunslinger, he's in the same mess the gunslinger would be in. In other words, the swordsman would be penalized for helping out his teammate.

Clearly there's a significant difference between the two situations. Removing health revives here would not promote team play, it would penalize it. And even if the gunslinger would be one-shotted after reviving the swordsman, it's better to be killable in one shot than it is to be killable in zero shots.

Sure, it makes it easier to have health revives here, but the difficulty that's added from health revives' removal is not actually difficulty. The monsters are no more difficult to avoid. They're not harder to kill either. Rather than adding difficulty through this route (which, in a previously mentioned video, was called "punishing" difficulty) difficulty should be added a different way. Create new monsters with unique attack patterns. Add more monsters to a room. Add more traps or change the room layout. Switch the types of monsters around, like maybe swapping out two Thwackers for two Menders, or two of the Mecha Knights for a few Retrodes, Lumbers, or Gun Puppies. Buff- or rather, un-nerf- the monsters. Give the Wolvers and Zombies their tracking back, people should know better than to walk right up to a crouching Wolver without thinking.

Better yet, improve enemy AI so you see things like Thwackers catching attacks on their shields to save their Menders, or Wolvers all blinking and biting in unison to surround a guy, or walls of Chromalisk spit to block access to a turret, or Devilites ducking behind Trojans and throwing stuff from their cover, or mobs like Scorchers and Demos "spy checking" with area attacks when someone goes invisible. Have the players think, communicate, and try out new tactics to get around the improved enemies.

But please don't remove health revives. Teamwork is only possible if there's a team alive to work.

And now, with every argument comes a refutation of the opposing argument. I'll do this as respectfully as possible this time, and I hope the developers will take my criticism without holding a grudge against the earlier, angrier criticism I levelled against them.

So, Nick's reason for removing "health sharing revives" is this: Our observations show that health sharing to revive downed party members ends up being detrimental to teams working to complete levels; diluting overall team health to the point of team members being repeatedly one-shotted in combat.

However, there are some things not considered in the above statement. One is that team health would actually be more diluted if revival was not possible, because of hearts and the way they work. Hearts, as most of us likely know, can be picked up individually by each member of the team. So if four members are injured, a large heart is not restoring 3 HP, it's restoring 12 HP.

If health revives are not removed, a teammate at full health and a dead teammate will gain more overall if the dead guy is revived; six points of health, as opposed to three, will be restored from one large heart. But if health revives are removed, the dead guy gets nothing and the guy at full health gets nothing. Health is lost in this case. If two teammates have two HP and they find a heart, they now both have 3 HP. Can you see where I'm going? More people alive to get health means more health for the party.

Another thing to consider is that reviving someone is entirely optional. If the bomber keeps getting mowed down by gun puppies, the other guys can choose to revive him later after some of the gun puppies are dead. If a party is making bad decisions as far as reviving goes, then yes, members will be frequently killed in one shot, but isn't that because they're making bad decisions? Shouldn't they be penalized for making bad decisions? Games are supposed to do that. I recently got penalized for making a bad decision in my Pokemon Diamond Nuzlocke run (for those who don't know, fainted Pokemon in Nuzlocke runs have to be released/permanently boxed). I switched out against something with Pursuit and my Pokemon paid the price. (Rhys the Budew... taken too soon.)

Finally, I'll restate a previous point: most of us would rather be killed in one shot than in zero shots. Which is better? A swordsman with two HP that will be killed in two shots, or a swordsman with one HP that will be killed in one shot that's being supported by a gunslinger or bomber with one hp that will be killed in one shot? Both still take two successful shots to kill off, but the latter option has more shield health between them, and more tactics available to them. (Going with some Supernova and Sudaruska knockback action? Go right ahead! Using a Glacius or Shivermist in tandem with a Blitz Needle? Go nuts! Vortex and Heavy Swords or Brandishes? Rock on! Shield screening while the gunner mows down a turret or someone moves a statue? Way to teamwork! One guy gets the turrets' attention and distracts them with their shield up while the other uses Maskeraith's invisibility to get behind them and beat them up with heavy swords? Spy and Scout, credit to team!) Two knights with less HP are still far from being detrimental to teams working to complete levels; it's actually better to have the two knights with less HP than the one knight with more HP!

With these points in mind, I believe it's quite clear that health reviving shouldn't be removed. If anyone has any counter argument, I'd like to hear it.

Also, I understand the developers read threads like this, but I know for sure that it would make us a lot happier if you actively discussed these things with us. We like it when the developers talk with us about development.

ITT: People trying to find reasons to keep hp sharing when some of the people defending it have the real motive of HP reviving their dragged alts.

Yeah, I don't mean to point fingers, but what I am saying is that I wouldn't be surprised if alt dragging WAS the reason for a lot of the heat/cr/hp rev changes. Alt dragging nullifies the need for an elevator pass for *many* power users.... as you can see that negatively affects OOO's bottom line.

Hello everyone,

First I would like to thank you, for your efforts, whether your ideas are right or wrong, I know how it is to be under pressure at work, preparing to make a drastic change to your whole project. So Good luck :)

I don't post often, but for this one I felt the urge to give my share of thoughts about it. I will try to make it as clean and clear as possible.

Difficulty :

Good idea, just be sure to make greater difficulty worth in terms of looth, balanced ofc (not too much not too insignificant compared to lower difficulties).

Red-screen low health warning :

This one is really annoying, don't know if I would ever be used to it, I would suggest to lower the red effect, also make it so it starts at say 10% health and most importantly -> option to toggle it off, and I think it's not a big deal.

Orbs of alchemy :

Seems interesting.

We can drop it, but don't make "too" rare to get it, I mean like gear in boxes...I don't know the price to get it, but make it so it is viable like the ancient system. Most importantly : Players know how to count with a calculator, if you calculate and see you are paying more than before, ask yourself what will be your reaction...

Charge-bar :

Nice, good idea, I like it. But give choice to players to disable it though, and switch to the ancient one.

New rev system :

Well this is one of the two controversial issues here... A free revive for each LVL seems nice, but only if you play good, then you can maybe succeed into not using it at all. But this would penalize players that aren't that good and needs to be carried out.

Now what I want to get to, as some already mentioned it : These players aren't always unwelcome, as you surely know, people in this game like sometimes to help friends or guild-mates. Now me included, we can't afford to pay for them their rev each second, third etc... time they die. And you and I know that happens often.

Then you would argue : "They have to pay for themselves if they don't, they can quit" (that is if he isn't a troll and the leader of the party, so you can kick him).

Well if you come to this conclusion, this idea can't possibly encourage group gameplay. I would better solo and people that do dies would likely pay at first, but then at one point they would rage quit the game. It is evidence. Also setting the difficulty on easy would not clear the issue : what If I want more loots, and I choose elite, and the other member cannot assume it ? --> It doesn't encourage us to do runs with any friends anymore.

I can understand that you could be motivated to remove heat exploit with the ancient system. The solution for rev-heat is easy if you want to : remove the heat sharing when we rev someone.

Suggestions :

What I would propose is to let the ancient rev system with health but remove Heat-rev. Heat amplifiers should get some utility and value, players would LVL normally. I find it fair. But really Rev with health isn't detrimental, it is optional, nobody is forced to rev nobody if he doesn't wants to.

Another suggestion is maybe to make sparks of life, drop often, say 2 sparks in FSC 24-28 (hard difficulty), each team member get one, that way we can gladly bring any friend even though he doesn't play too well, without fearing to face the "pay for me please" or "Sry but I go up" scenario.

=> The free rev per LVL + 2 Sparks. I think it is ok.

Finally, I don't find a strong positive point that would make you to implement this idea like this. It would create more problems than it would solve. If you want to encourage group play, you need to search something else. I gave two suggestions, don't know if you like them, but at least I think it would not discourage people to play in group.

Loot system :

Well everything was said I think : Crowns and Heats not disappearing doesn't solve the issue. The problem is : We have to stick together to get our loots, in FSC and some runs it would be really annoying. Add this to the new rev system you want to put the result would be = Promotion of SOLO run. For sure people would prefer SOLO than group in this conditions.

I don't find any explanation of what got you to think about implementing this idea too...Unless It got to do with the suppression of some "OP" glitch I did encounter one day, and that's the only way... just guessing maybe I'm wrong :)

Suggestion : FEAR NOT ! I have a very nice idea read well OOO : Maybe you could get our pets to get our loots for us like like in a certain hack'n slash game XD...OFC ==> Crowns, heats and mats should not disappears. If not, we would be obligated to send each time our pet to get stuff, instead of using its skills. That way we can wait to end all rooms, we click one button it get the loot quick and safe. Everyone is happy.

Anyway, that's not all what I wanted to say, but the most important part are here. Hope you do take into account what we suggest you, and everyone is glad by this new content, including you developers. Good luck.

Best regards,

If the problem is "dragging" inactive / dead alts behind one active player, then I'm still an advocate of associating level payout to activity on the level.
This deals with the "dead player" not revving issue too.

Here's what I'm thinking:

Keep current system.
Player must be active for %duration of game level. Anyone in party not active for that percentage, gets nothing for the level.

Example: Level takes 8 minutes to complete. Activity % set at 50%.
Each party member must log 4 minutes of activity in order to get any pay out.
If they don't meet the target - they get nothing - no CR, heat, tokens or items.

Anyone AFK, not actively participating, not revving - runs a risk of not getting any rewards for the level.
That's fair because they'll have contributed less to clearing the level then the "average" party member.

For a player multi-clienting - they can't make enough active inputs for any of their alts to get paid, and put their own payout at risk, as they'll be inactive while they try to get their alts some loot.
I suppose you could try to get around this with some type of keyboard macro that simulates game actions - but that sounds like a lot of work and effort.

I simply do not like the idea of penalizing the majority of players who play legitimately by bogging down their game play, making them chase down every single thing that drops because we can't find a better way to manage the cheaters.

I would be surprised that OOO doesn't know who these players are, given the info they collect behind the scenes off the data fields.
Why not just use the ban stick and put the word out this type of behavior is banning offense?

Something I've found: The "generous amount" of health for the emergency revive is 30 pips. Tested and confirmed with Ancient plate and heart pendants. Also, health bonuses on pets have now unlocked the ability to get gold pips of health (TWO at the max!). Gear setup: Ancient Plate, Two penta hearts, Health Bonus 5 or 6 (6 is unreleased), Scarlet shield, vitapod 21. Enjoy your golden pips of deliciousness at 61 health (or 62 when ultimates come along).

That the generous amount of health that the first revive gives you is a percentage of your total health, (if its not then it should be). A possible 80% at the most would be generous enough.

What about old revives? But let us to choose how much HP we will give.

@Shamanala...
solution: don't hp rev them if they're gonna die. let them rev themselves... is it that hard? its not frikin mandatory to hp rev them. if you CAN survive, then hp rev em

In my opinion the new drop system will help the players focus more on fighting the enemies then scrambling around in the middle of a fight trying to collect crowns and mats. Also the difficulty modes are great! If you were getting bored of doing the same old run over and over again, then the new difficulty modes would be the answer to your problem. It really adds more excitement to your gameplay experience and if you play with a group it will really have you relying on your fellow knights. Lastly I don't really see what's the problem with the equipment limits, all it means is that the newer players will have to work to get their gear like the rest of us did.

Idham, thank you for understanding.

devs, please tell the community WHAT you're trying to achieve so we can help you while keeping the things we enjoy

I have no problem with the new level system. Seeing as im all ready a vanguard. But for those people who are not and have 5 star gear i guess they'll have to *gasps* "play the game!" Seariously people those missions are not hard and can be done in one afternoon if you so wish.

Honestly I wouldn't blame OOO for the removal of HP revives. Too many whiny kids at vana who keep on dying begging for your HP in pugs. Three star nooblets need to learn that not every vanguard will want to donate all their HP away only to become one hits every damn run.

I do believe we are getting off topic here. Lets just agree to disagree and get back on track as to what this forum is originally supposed to be about.

@Hyper: Reviving is optional. You can ignore the guys begging for revives if it won't help the team as a whole.

Orbwanter, you must not be dealing with the 3 star folk who beg for drop offs at vana then proceed to whine for HP revs and tabbing. It simply happens too much in pug parties.