I think I've figured it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj1eR2VK4f0
Thanks Broxaim
Ever wondered why night lasts such a short time in Haven?
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 08:24
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 08:46
#2
My mind has been blown good sir...
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 09:59
#3
but wait
Why does it take two years to go around its sun once? And why is cradle the moon, and the big white cracking thing the planet?
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 10:13
#4
@Klipik-Forum
Did you read the video description?
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 10:08
#5
So, does this theory still
So, does this theory still work when you reverse the sizes? Also, what if this is something to do with Nick's #10 (players see every day that there is never night)?
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 10:18
#6
So, does this theory still work when you reverse the sizes?
It possibly could: if Cradle was the planet and the object in the background was the moon, then by logic of gravity, Cradle would have to be larger than it. However, I don't really see a 2 week Cradle Eclipse occurring with an object smaller than cradle itself.
Although you can't see it at the Title Screen, the celestial body in the background is actually behind Cradle, not beside it. There's no way to tell the actual size difference between the two because of this, and since moons are usually pretty darn far away from the planet they're orbiting, that object in the background looks pretty freaking massive. Anyway, Cradle had to be built somewhere, didn't it? It would have been very difficult to just start it from scratch in the middle of space.
Perhaps the reason why the planet in the background is cracked is because it underwent a "Caesarean Section" when Cradle was first born/launched. Getting something of that size and mass off the ground, even if only partially constructed, would have a sizable impact on the planet's crust.
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 10:17
#7
What if Cradle rotates on
What if Cradle rotates on it's axis fast enough to counter rotating on star's axis, hence there's no night. Then during lunar eclipse there's night for one-two weeks and Dark Harvest Festival? Because, we can't assume that Haven is the whole Cradle surface
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 10:18
#8
I read the description...
Now it makes less sense ¬.¬;
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 10:19
#9
Hmm, now that I think about
Hmm, now that I think about it some more, you are right. The forum background picture of the moon sorta looks like pictures of Earth from the Moon, so it would make sense that the "moon" is bigger.
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 10:23
#10
@Onekone
What if Cradle rotates on it's axis fast enough to counter rotating on star's axis, hence there's no night. Then during lunar eclipse there's night for one-two weeks and Dark Harvest Festival? Because, we can't assume that Haven is the whole Cradle surface
If you pay close attention to Cradle during the video, you'd notice that this is actually what happens: Cradle does rotate, but only very slowly and just enough so that one side of the planet stays in the sunlight except for the period of time in which it passes behind Caeserea. See the meticulously placed shadow on the other side of the planet, where it is perpetually dark?
Due to the elliptical orbit unbalancing the constant rotation of Cradle, the "horizon" of Cradle shifts in and out of night-time in equal amounts. This could explain why there's a night-day cycle in the Rescue Camp that isn't reflected in Haven.
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 10:33
#11
well
This theory is great, and I love the little sequence you've composed in game maker for us. I agree that cradle must be the smaller entity, however, it comes to my attention that cradle started as 'the core'. The unnatural energies that the core possesses could have slowly, over time, pulled matter towards itself to create the crust we know on the outside as cradle. Additionally, if we are able to travel to the core in a matter of hours, the size of cradle can't be too extraordinary. So as for all of the industrial construction being done on cradle, it seems likely that the gremlins were among the first intelligent life forms to be brought to cradle, perhaps by the energy of the core. The gremlins, being the industrial trade experts that they are, must have started a large scale mining operation, that we now know as the clockworks. and then a bunch of other stuff yadda yadda ive got nothin on why theres no night on cradle :|
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 10:57
#12
Perhaps this also explains
Perhaps this also explains the point of Cooling Chambers - they keep the always-day part of Cradle from getting too hot.
@Diamondshreddie
I believe the Gremlins built Cradle.
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 10:44
#13
@Mobott
Perhaps this also explains the point of Cooling Chambers - they keep the always-day part of Cradle from getting too hot.
Oh, excellent point. And similar logic for the Blast Chambers, Wasteworks and Power Complexes....nice... I'm going to have a blast writing up on all this stuff...
Here's the gamemaker file if you have windows and want to play around with it. (arrow keys and spacebar) It's made in GM8 Pro and it's not obfuscated.
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 11:04
#14
@Hexzyle I was going from
@Hexzyle I was going from assumption that Cradle is planet and that entity (satellite?) is rotating around it. Not vice versa. About size, thought that "Caesarea" is probably coming from assumption that on distance from Earth to Moon is very great and thus Moon is so relatively small, but what if "Caesarea" is closer and/or bigger than Moon?
EDIT: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=172788512 - is picture is more or less plausable image of Cradle being planet and/or bigger than entity, I guess
EDIT 2: Ridiculous idea - Cradle's surface slowly drifting, and Haven's drift fast enough to counter day-night cycle
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 11:12
#15
@Onekone
was going from assumption that Cradle is planet and that entity (satellite?) is rotating around it. Not vice versa.
Oh, well you said Lunar Eclipse which means the Moon is in the Planet's shadow, when you meant Solar Eclipse which means the Planet is in the Moon's shadow. Moonshadow, moonshadow.
It still seems very implausible that a planet's moon could cause a 2-week Solar Eclipse. Earth's moon is 3,400 kilometres wide and is 190,000km away from Earth and only causes 2 hours of darkness. To cause a far longer period would mean that Caesarea would have to be ridiculously close to Cradle, or be absolutely massive, a sister planet even. (where two planets orbit around eachother) Or the central star could be far smaller than Sol, which is saying something because Sol is already a pretty small star.
The moon's orbit is 13 times faster than Earths, (revolution-wise) while this proposed system results in Cradle having an orbit speed 2 to 3 times faster than Caesarea. (depending if we're going by the single year or bi-year system) If you swapped the planets without changing the diameter, orbit distance, or star size, that's still only a Solar Eclipse of 8-12 hours
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 11:01
#16
@OnekoneLook at this and
@Onekone
Look at this and then look at the top of the forum background - size is pretty close. Cradle is likely to be the satellite.
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 15:14
#17
Regarding the rotation of
Regarding the rotation of Cradle, it would be extremely unusual for a body to be rotationally locked with another body that isn't its parent, but I suppose it's possible in theory if Cradle originally orbited the sun and was captured by the moon, or if it just happened to rotate at the perfect rate (extremely unlikely), or if it were perhaps engineered to rotate at that rate (probably the most likely). In fact, if Cradle is not much more than a hollow metal skeleton, I'm not even sure how much of an effect tidal forces would have.
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 18:08
#18
My own theory is that the Axis of Cradle (What I call the golden thing that pierces Cradle) actually rotates the entire planet so that it is always facing the sun. The planet itself may rotate but the Axis always rotates it so that Haven is always facing the Sun; and then the moon decides to quickly pass in front of Haven after it tortuously slow orbit finally places it inbetween the Sun and Cradle.
Unfortunately the problem with this theory is that eventually the axis itself would rotate itself around Cradle so that itself is positioned in between Cradle and the Sun.
The problem can solved however by locking the Axis into a quantum state where it stays in a position relative to sun. However this solution would require satanic amounts SCIENCE! to theorise, let alone actually implement; And for what? What reason would someone have for locking a structure in time and space so that one side of a planet gets eternal summer?
Sun, 08/25/2013 - 21:19
#19
It's connected to Cradle at it's "poles", and displays the planet's rotational axis. It's possible that the brace is then rotated by internal motors, the inertia of which allows the rotation of Cradle to be artificially simulated.
-HexZyle
This could allow Cradle to be tidally locked manually.
Unfortunately the problem with this theory is that eventually the axis itself would rotate itself around Cradle so that itself is positioned in between Cradle and the Sun.
-Ghret
Not necessarily. Now I'm no genius on inertia and friction of an object in space, but is it possible that the brace be "jolted" into motion to initiate the spinning of cradle, and then stopped gradually so that Cradle continues to spin? You can do a similar thing with an office chair and a sudden jolt of movement, but I'm not sure if the lack of friction would make this impossible.
Even if that theory doesn't work, there are countless mechanisms inside cradle which we can only guess at, perhaps there are thrusters, or weighted objects that can be shifted around inside... Cradle... that... can.... oh. The entirety of the insides of Cradle is just one big massive series of weights that are constantly being shifted around. This could easily be used to generate enough momentum to rotate the surface of the planet so that it is tidal locked to the central star.
or if it were perhaps engineered to rotate at that rate (probably the most likely)
-Jimbo-Jambo
And for what? What reason would someone have for locking a structure in time and space so that one side of a planet gets eternal summer?
-Ghret
Hmm, what reason could one have for engineering an apparently diabolical device to constantly face the largest source of energy? I guess the same reason mad scientists always put their creations underneath the opening of a roof during a storm.
Mon, 08/26/2013 - 00:10
#20
Wait!
...wait, wait, wait!
So there's night in Cradle?
I'm amazed! Totally mind blown!
Mon, 08/26/2013 - 00:26
#21
0…0
I wonder what happens on the other, dark side of Cradle. I have a bad feeling about it. Why haven't we seen it?
Mon, 08/26/2013 - 01:24
#22
With OOO, logic is nothing
In the SK universe, don't try to apply Earth logic. I thought it is a well known fact the cradle is very artificial, being like a giant terrarium, so we may have a sun, but chances are the lights are light from bulbs, screw logic.
Also, the dark periods of cradle is dark harvest, so what if the strangers are spread.across the surface of cradle and the dark harvest and winterfest goes around there too?
Sorry if this is discussed in previous comments, too lazy to read all of them...
Mon, 08/26/2013 - 01:26
#23
These forums sure do have
These forums sure do have hardcore fans.
Mon, 08/26/2013 - 01:28
#24
not exactly grass
Not exactly hardCORE fans I would say.
Mon, 08/26/2013 - 03:21
#25
@Troll-Lolo
In the SK universe, don't try to apply Earth logic
Actually, logic is everything. (provided it doesn't get in the way of equipment balance) Everything can be explained with logic. And even if it can't, the rules can be bent to "aliens", "deities", or "high tech stuff", all of which exist in Spiral Knights.
so we may have a sun, but chances are the lights are light from bulbs, screw logic.
The system does have a central star. It's not easily visible from the title screen but it is there.
Mon, 08/26/2013 - 04:34
#26
Thank you for this thread.
Friction is required for what you describe doing with a chair, as angular momentum is a conserved quantity. I'm rather surprised to see that question asked by some one familiar with tidelocking. O.O The friction is transferring momentum between you and the planet you're on until your velocities match, because friction has a weird obsession with matching velocities. Throw a projectile along an axis that doesn't intersect your axis of rotation, and it pushes you into a counter-rotation while the total angular momentum of the system of all the bodies mentioned in this sentence remains constant.
In a vacuum, you can use rockets and/or selectively sucking up stuff from your surroundings to produce angular thrust. If your long-term average thrust is expected to be zero, a reaction wheel would also be handy. (A reaction wheel is useful for temporary changes but not good for constant correction in one direction because either you'd run out of capacity when your wheel's spinning as fast as it safely can, or you'd have another place to put that undesired momentum and not need the wheel in the first place.) The golden arm around Cradle is an inefficient shape for that, so Imma assume that's not its primary purpose. Maybe that's why Cradle is built near a larger body, it gives something to push against.
My guess is that's what the messy stuff is, side-effects of the gravy machine used to engage Caesarea's mass. If Cradle is as small as those clouds suggest, it probably has gravy machines. If Caesarea is much of a significant celestial body at all, then any angular thrust used to adjust Cradle's orientation should be peanuts next to what Caesarea's tidal friction with the sun can transfer.
Orbital lift from a planet takes tremendous energy, so it makes much more sense to get materials for a megastructure from an asteroid belt or similar rather than a single lump with a deep gravity well. A diffuse belt doesn't have that problem.
I didn't notice that Rescue Camp has a day/night cycle, and now I'm wishing we could go there without having to take up character names and make the servers hold onto more junk for frivolous reasons. >:( I now suspect that of being what the infamous "Nick's Number Ten" is about as well.
Mon, 08/26/2013 - 04:36
#27
@Geosmin
I'm rather surprised to see that question asked by some one familiar with tidelocking. O.O
I'm fond of Astronomy, not physics. It's a bit of a love-hate relationship there. I did actually realise it was a bit of a silly idea after I wrote it.
If your long-term average thrust is expected to be zero. (A reaction wheel is useful for temporary changes but not good for constant correction in one direction because either you'd run out of capacity when your wheel's spinning as fast as it safely can
You do have a good point here too.
If Cradle is as small as those clouds suggest, it probably has gravy machines
It is, just did some calculations and Cradle's radius turns out to be around 36 kilometres. Since something this small doesn't really have a tangible gravity, Cradle must contain some sort of device that generates synthetic gravity, if the core is not made of heavily compressed matter.
Mon, 08/26/2013 - 05:24
#28
I thought i theorized this a year ago
My theory is that Cradle IS a planet but a slow orbiting lopsided planet. Like Uranus.
I did this a while ago. for Dark-fest Festival.
http://i41.tinypic.com/wgyi9w.png
Haven is situated where for the most part of the year it slowly orbits on its axis at a extremely slow rate but when it hits the dark side, is only there for a short time due to its angle.
(actually i think someone poked holes in my theory and destroyed my comment... hey, where Luguiru?)
Mon, 08/26/2013 - 05:35
#29
@Canine-Vladmir
That could work too, to explain the day-night cycle and Winterfest. It would require the system to be drawn in a 3 dimensional space, something which I wasn't prepared to do. I stated that there are a lot of different methods that could explain the day night cycle if you include a third dimension, while the idea I brought up was one of the few ideas that could be animated in 2d space (since that's the extent of my skill :P)
It doesn't disprove my theory though that Cradle is only very small and therefore does not have a strong enough gravity to hold a natural satellite of a reasonable size in any sort of maintained orbit. Therefore the planet in the background must be the primary.
Mon, 08/26/2013 - 07:05
#30
^huh
Never thought about it that way. So is Cradle maybe a creation made by the primary planet? Maybe where King Tinka-something resides?
Mon, 08/26/2013 - 07:15
#31
@Canine-Vladmir
It seems that way. The entirety of Cradle wasn't built on the planet though, probably just the core and a few basic functions like the shaft, tray and skydome systems. The Gremlins were likely created to finish the job in space. They wear goggles because their eyeballs would pop in the vacuum of space (not to mention they'd go blind from all the flashy and explosive tools they like to use)
If Tinkinzar is not a Gremlin (because it's never stated that he is) then yeah, maybe he resides on the main planet and gives orders to the Crimson Order via radio.
Mon, 09/02/2013 - 10:57
#32
Awsum.
I love it, always wanted to see the physics and lore of this game :3. ~Z
Mon, 09/02/2013 - 21:35
#33
Neat!
Now pilot the damn ship so you can get us out of here!
Hm, actually, if gremlins are anything like human beings in terms of physiology (at least, I assume we share some similarities just by being warm-blooded, up-right walking, humanoid mammalian bipeds) Their bodies, like ours, can probably stand the vacuum of space just fine - the whole "your-body-a'splode" thing with entering space is a myth. Turns out, human bodies can adjust to the pressure and temperature changes just fine - what kills tends to be the ungodly amount of cosmic radiation that bombards unprotected flesh - hence why our astronauts wear lead-lined suits.
... and you know, that lack-of-air thing.
Could be that early gremlins just built constructs to do all the initial space-building for them, before Cradle had breathable atmosphere and gravity for them to settle on.
But those were just nitpicks. The lore in this game is so vague that for all we know the Space Apes from the joke ending of OFF did it.
I win the view game!