The wiki doesn't have it. Does anyone know the exact effect (percentage-wise) poison has on the target's defense? I'm considering working on the DVS, but I want a better idea of what it will do in PvE. Thanks.
poisons impact on defense
Wed, 09/04/2013 - 13:25
Wed, 09/04/2013 - 13:39
#2
I hate poison
Poison stops you or enemies healing and also lowers their damage. I think the players defense stays the same but the enemies defense gets dropped by 45% I believe.
Wed, 09/04/2013 - 14:09
#3
You're crazy.
Last time I did the math, poison reduced DEFENSE by a piddly 7-9%
Wed, 09/04/2013 - 14:12
#4
I do know that voltaic tempest shock ticks increase by 1 point after throwing a venom veiler :p
Wed, 09/04/2013 - 14:46
#5
It also gets affected by the
It also gets affected by the level of poison. I'm pretty sure (last time i tested it) the Makseraith's poison is just a tad more powerful then Venom Veiler's.
Wed, 09/04/2013 - 15:36
#6
I'll have to test, but there's no way even Strong poison drops defense by more than 15%
Wed, 09/04/2013 - 15:56
#7
Strength 0 poison (minor poison against an enemy with no resistance, negative or otherwise) is around 15%.
Strength 4 poison (strong) is around 17%-18%.
On depth 24, a wolver has around 65 piercing defence and 130 shadow/normal defence.
On depth 28, a wolver has around 82 piercing defence and around 164 shadow/normal defence.
I'm getting around to poison for more accurate tests soon enough.
Wed, 09/04/2013 - 16:02
#8
Against vana:
Unpoisened, max
Against vana:
Unpoisened, max dmg blitz: 289 dmg
poisoned, max dmg blitz: 313 dmg
313-289 = 24
24/289 is around 9%
Wed, 09/04/2013 - 16:24
#9
I did end up finding a
I did end up finding a user-made wiki page (Poison Guide) claiming it lowers attack and defense by 1/3, but I know that can't be right.
9% is pretty terrible. That only saves you one out of eleven hits (well, 11.111 hits). Still, if you add it to the target's damage penalty and the inability for them to heal, I suppose it's pretty balanced.
Wed, 09/04/2013 - 17:46
#10
@Voza-Il
Vanaduke does not have 289 piercing defence, he has 150.
24 / 150 = 16%.
Wed, 09/04/2013 - 18:01
#11
data from RJP
I just measured data in the Royal Jelly Palace (depths 14 and 15), advanced difficulty, damage bonus +6. The poison source was Venom Veiler (minor). The weapons were Combuster and Gran Faust. The targets were jellies, mini jellies, yellow mini jellies, a giant lichen colony, lumbers, gun puppies, and silkwings. For each target, I divided the poison damage by the ordinary damage.
The arithmetic mean was 1.11691, implying about an 11.7% increase in damage. The sample standard deviation was 0.0519751, implying a 95% confidence interval of roughly 1.3% to 22.1%. So the ratio is not well-constrained by this study. (The geometric mean was 1.11578. That seems a better way to measure the increase. But it turns out not to matter.)
Here's an interesting twist. On depth 14 with Combuster, the lumber increase was 184/172, while the gun puppy increase was 186/172. So the amount of increase depends not just on base damage and monster family, but also on some other factor. On depth 15, the numbers were 187/174 and 189/174. Similar results hold for Gran Faust against these two monsters.
Wed, 09/04/2013 - 19:58
#12
Tier III guild training hall
Chaos set, BTS, Divine Avenger charge attack (direct blade) vs construct bag
No poison: 778
strong poison: 813
Damage difference: 35
35/778=4.5% increased damage.
Moderate poison: 809 damage
Minor poison: 806
I rest my case.
Wed, 09/04/2013 - 20:16
#13
@Bopp
Poison does not directly increase your damage on a target, and that's why the increase is not consistent.
The Poison reduces defense, which depending on what defense you're hitting, is why the damage increase varies.
For example, a slime has a lot of piercing defense. If you hit a poisoned slime with a piercing weapon, your weapon will do a lot more damage since the piercing defense is reduced by a percentage. Additionally, depending on what depth you're playing on and what weapon you're using, how much your weapon exceeds the defense can also vary unexpectedly from a pure "damage number" standpoint.
Wed, 09/04/2013 - 20:27
#14
That's extremely misleading.
So what enemies does poison actually have a meaningful impact on?
Wed, 09/04/2013 - 20:45
#15
@Zeddy
289 is the amount of
@Zeddy
289 is the amount of damagee one needle from a blitz needle charge inflicts on vana when it is at dmg max. Comparing that damage to vana (normally, with no poison) with 313 dmg (blitz with max dmg against vana with poison vial inflicted) results in the 9% dmg increase.
Wed, 09/04/2013 - 21:02
#16
Defence is linear. The GTH construct bag has 61 elemental defence and 122 normal defence.
61 * 18.5% = 12 Elemental defence reduced.
122 * 18.5% = 23 Normal defence reduced.
12+23 = 35 total damage increased for any attack with DA.
@Voza-Il
That's nice and all, but the original poster asked for a defence debuff, not how much that debuff affects the damage of one particular weapon on one particular enemy.
@Bopp
I'm thinking the poison resistance is different between the puppy and lumber. Whether puppies are weak to poison or lumbers resistant to it, I wouldn't be able to tell you.
Thu, 09/05/2013 - 07:41
#17
yes, thanks
Hexzyle, thanks for clarifying that point. I'd read it many times, but apparently my brain hadn't fully absorbed it.
I wonder whether we could use poison as an "extra data source", to tease out exactly how damage works. (Zeddy and his group have a good theory above a certain critical threshhold, but last I checked it doesn't apply below the threshhold.)
Thu, 09/05/2013 - 08:28
#18
I don't know much about defense, but from what Zeddy has explained on multiple threads, it's something like
Weapon Damage - Defense of Monster = Total Damage
E.G
Say a Grand Faust does 300 Shadow, 300 Normal.
Some random undead/fiend monster has 250 Shadow defense and 200 normal defense.
(300 - 250) + (300 - 200) = 150 damage total.
When you hit that monster up with poison, their defense gets reduced by, say, 10%, to 225 Shadow, 180 normal.
Now your Gran Faust does:
(300 - 225) + (300 - 180) = 195 (30% increase in damage)
If the same monster only had 150 of each defense, the damage would have gone from 300 to 330.
Or say if you hit it with a Divine Avenger, doing 300 Elemental and 300 Normal, when said monster only has 80 Elemental defense and 200 Normal:
(300 - 80) + (300 - 200) = 320
(300 - 72) + (300 - 180) = 348
Or if you hit it with a Combuster, doing 250 Elemental, 250 Normal:
(250 - 80) + (250 - 200) = 220
(250 - 72) + (300 - 180) = 248
The damage VALUE INCREASE there would be the same, but the PERCENTAGE would not
And then what about programming a Proto Gun to work in the same environment? It would have to do 205 normal damage at that depth. See how difficult it is to balance gear correctly throughout all tiers? This is probably one of the reasons why violent heart attack seems to do no damage, and Shard Bombs seem a little "underwhelming" in Tier 3 compared to Tier 2.
It could even be why we can "damage" environmental objects such as minerals and destructable blocks, but no damage numbers show.
Thu, 09/05/2013 - 08:37
#19
@Hexzyle
Proto gun actually does a really low amount of damage to undefended targets. Something like 15, I don't remember. Defence stops being linear when it exceeds half of a weapon's attack power; that's the "treshold" Bopp was alluding to earlier.
After exceeding the treshold, funny things happen and I don't have an exact formula for it yet. It starts by being more effective than usual for a few points and then diminishes exponentially.
Additionally, something like zombies have obscene amounts of shadow defence. Much, much more points than any weapons could ever hope to inflict damage. For this reason, even reducing that defence with poison and Seraphinx' defence buff does pitifully little help.
Thu, 09/05/2013 - 09:03
#20
If defense scales down exponentially, what's the highest damage reduction to source damage ratio?
I can't really explain myself better than that except by saying that:
1/(n+1) + 1/(n+2) + 1/(n+3).... = 1 - (1/∞)
assuming n starts at 1, and the result is how much damage is blocked (1 being 100%)
If I remembered more of year 12 maths C, I'd make more sense.
Ah, here's a better wording: If 50% is the maximum possible percentage of an attack that can be blocked without a loss of defensive efficiency, what's the maximum possible percentage of an attack that can be blocked by a defense of indefinite value? And is that percentage a universal rule? (shared by both monsters and Knights)
Thu, 09/05/2013 - 09:05
#21
don't know, but do know math
I don't know the answer to your SK question, but I do know that that math is not what you wanted. The left-hand side is the harmonic series, which diverges (goes to infinity). The right-hand side is 1. And now I'll shut up for a bit.
Thu, 09/05/2013 - 09:10
#22
@Bopp
I was trying to create a visual algorithm for what I'm asking: at what point does the defensive percentage increase disappear into a indefinitely small value.
Thu, 09/05/2013 - 10:05
#23
I haven't seen it go below 10%, for what that's worth.
See if you can make any sense out of these numbers.
At depth 24, enemies have 65-ish weak defence, 131-ish normal defence and god knows how much resistant defence.
Thu, 09/05/2013 - 15:27
#24
So how does the defense debuff from Disintegration Ray compare to poison?
Thu, 09/05/2013 - 17:31
#25
HAH finally something I can answer
Batabii, disintegration ray is almost identical to strong poison, and it stacks with poison as well.
Thu, 09/05/2013 - 18:04
#26
I recall it being 25% last time I test. It's multiplicative with poison. Applying both reduces defence to 75% * 85% = 63.8%.
Thu, 09/05/2013 - 18:07
#27
Well that's a letdown. I could have sworn Disintegration ray does way more damage after the first hit.
Thu, 09/05/2013 - 18:32
#28
wo
your big words are confusing me
First, thank you for saying that you've checked the wiki. We get a lot of posters around here who haven't.
I don't have the numbers myself, but it's worth studying. It shouldn't be hard to record some damage numbers with and without poison, and compare them. We're doing similar studies of status effects in this thread:
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/88615
You can search for other threads on poison's effect using (for example) Google, using (for example) the search query "spiral knights forums poison effect". Here's one, that unfortunately is not at all quantitative or conclusive:
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/53224