Spiral Knights - Should weapon types really be play styles?

Should weapon types really be play styles?

22 replies [Last post]

Sun, 04/27/2014 - 18:12

Fehzor

I'm talking about the following terms:
Swordy
Gunner
Bomber
Hybrid

I hardly ever see anyone good using all swords seriously.. if anything, they bring swords and guns to the fight. When I plan my armor, I don't just go "Welp, I'm a hybrid, best bring chaos + bombs and guns and swords. Derp." I bring swordy/gunner/specialist armor too, and I have a plan to kill everything I meet.

Here are two of the sets I choose from:

"Assassin"
+Dread Venom Striker
+Valiance/another gun
+Maskeraith@Any Shadow Cloak/Drakon@Backfire Barrier
+Sword buffs, MSI appreciated

Strategy: Use valiance to stay alive while dealing small amounts of damage. Then, when there are enemies far off or menders present, or anything that should be dealt with ASAP, I use deadly shadow cloak or backfire barrier to sneak up on them or otherwise overwhelm them by running up. This almost always guarantees that whatever I'm fighting dies, and helps my team marginally more than just spamming brandishes would.

"Crowd Control Support"
+Sudaruska/Brandishes/Divine Avenger
+A vortex bomb/Shivermist/Voltaic Tempest
+One part chaos
+One part defense armor
+Drakon/Seraphynx
+Bomb or sword CTR perk

Strategy: Use your sword for small encounters. Whenever there are 5+ enemies, plant a bomb or two and attempt to smash them. If you noticed your team taking advantage of your bomb, let them and keep spamming it or switch to your sword and just fight normally.

But that isn't the point

There's nothing wrong with focusing on swords or guns as your "class", but it's kind of unrealistic and no matter which you choose, you'll have to find a strategy to use within that set of items, and branching out will let you build far more and far more interesting sets.

What if instead of saying "swordy" or "gunner", we asked what role people wanted to play, and broke it up into that instead? We could list 'classes' or roles based on what they actually did for the party, like so:

+Assassin = Kills priority targets; defaults to safe play otherwise
+Defensive Support = Focuses on keeping the team safe + helping the team
+Offensive Support = Focuses on softening mobs + helping the team
+Soldier = Focuses on DPS and killing everything in sight
+Drunken Master = Focuses on control over the environment and otherwise manipulating the situation.

Sun, 04/27/2014 - 18:48

Bopp

hard to differentiate

The general idea is good. Here is an example, or at least a related story.

As "everybody knows", sworders rush into combat and get beaten up, while gunners spread status and cooly pick off monsters from afar. But in Heart of Ice, my teammates frequently unleash Blitz Needle charges on everything. While they are charging and recovering, they are vulnerable to greavers, devilites, etc. In stand in front of them, interrupting monsters with Final Flourish first strokes, and sometimes shielding. I'm playing pure defense, waiting for the Blitzers to unleash the offense. This role reversal is made possible by the extreme all-or-nothing dynamics of Autogun charges. Are there other interesting dynamics like this in the game? I guess vortex bombs.

Perhaps what I'm saying is that character classes, as you envision them, make sense only in the context of a team. It's not even really about the individual player's "style". It's about what group he's in today, what group tomorrow, etc.

There seems to be some overlap between the categories. Presumably the Soldier does his DPS against "priority targets". "Keeping the team safe" is almost always "controlling the environment".

Sun, 04/27/2014 - 19:20

Fehzor

There are some overlapping of terms, but think of the last wave of an arena, with construct and menders.

An assassin would ignore everything and go straight for the menders, preferably using shadow cloak or backfire barrier.

A defensive support would spam stagger storm+venom veilor, or plague needle + sudaruska charges to take care of the menders temporarily+slow everything.

An offensive support would spam ash of agni + voltaic tempest + dark retribution, or volcanic pepperbox, and would try to single out menders with status effects such that their team's soldiers can get off shots at it.

A soldier would strafe and sword+shoot things at will, taking shots at menders (or bombing the menders, as shard bombs may work for this?) when she can.

A drunken master would have several weapons, and would use them to manipulate the mobs depending on what others did, filling whatever role was required of them. For instance, if they see that you're going for the menders, they'd draw aggro away from things and then shoot a gun such that the mecha knights all stopped, given them time to charge a bomb and deal area damage. If you drew aggro, they would go for the healers and try to solve that situation.

However, everyone can and should change roles on the fly to some degree so as to benefit their team. If I'm using stagger storm and I need to play offensively, I can either switch weapons and charge up + kill everything with my brandish as a soldier would, or I could deal crowd control with the middle burst as an offensive support. Understanding this and being able to make yourself flexible is what will make you good at the game. This seems to already be the case.

Sun, 04/27/2014 - 19:17

Seiran

labels

It's as close to descriptive "races" as people can get - which really only accounts for their physical aspects.
If I go around wearing a gunslinger set, it's easier to refer to me as a "gunner". If I'm wearing Chaos, then it's easier to refer to me by what I use (hybrid).

At the end of it all, they're just labels, and labels are mainly useful for describing things when you need to identify them.

Your labels are for identifying by/describing roles, while most of the time, "swordy/gunner/hybrid" are for identifying by gear.

Sun, 04/27/2014 - 19:28

Fehzor

That's definitely true, but we still advise people on how to become a "gunslinger".

Sun, 04/27/2014 - 19:42

Draycos

"Swordsman", "Gunslinger", "Bomber", and "Hybrid" are all very vague.

They don't really depict any exact playstyle; they're just labels for what weapon types you focus on early in the game.

Those labels pretty much fade away by the time you're 5* and have multiple sets to choose from; then you just pick the right tools for the job.

Sun, 04/27/2014 - 19:44

Seiran

haha, true. It's probably because the popular armor sets cater their bonuses to weapon types, which pushes people to want to take advantage of those bonuses and go all-out with one weapon. Old Chaos (universal dmg med) and Fallen (universal speed med) were the sets that encouraged hybrid stats, but they weren't all that popular (Chaos being the least popular - I made it to be all different and cool XD). New Chaos (universal dmg/ctr VH) promotes more experimentation with weapons and roles though.

---

Funny enough, I'm kind of known as a gunslinger now, but in all honesty, I originally picked up guns so I can have proficiency in a sidearm to my then-heavy-sword-and-vortex-only loadouts - but it turned out to be a huge change of pace that conflicted with the rest of my loadout and took over.

I really think that if anything adds flavor to roles, it's bombs.
Bombless loadouts (ex: sword-only, gun-only) are for pure damaging roles ("DPS teams" being the most common type of team), but add a bomb and you have specific things that you can do for team support:

- Offensive crowd control with Vortex
- Defensive crowd speed with Stagger Storm
- Defending ranged players with Nitronome/BAB
- Offense/Defense 'buff aura' with Venom Veiler
- Defensive freeze from Shivermist
- Immobilizing crowd damage from Voltaic Tempest

In general, those roles don't really have time to develop, but in the (oft-jeered) "artificial difficulty" of having swarms of monsters (grinchlin assault and shadow lairs in mind), the team work and area effect from bombs and varied loadouts really shine.

Sun, 04/27/2014 - 20:00

Draycos

Probably because AoE is best against huge hordes of enemies- and because buffs and debuffs don't matter as much against fewer targets compared to pure damage. They don't develop because they just can't compete.

Unless it's Poison, I guess. That heal-block is awesome.

Mon, 04/28/2014 - 06:51

Holy-Nightmare

You forgot...

You forgot the "red mage" (jack of all trades master of none, one man army, etc)

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Mage

In short does everything but not as well as a specialist, can work alone or in a large group equally well. Never the one that kills the most but never dying the most.

Mon, 04/28/2014 - 14:30

Fehzor

Red Mage is really the same as Drunken Master.

Their purpose is to be a perfect mix of whatever their team is lacking most.

Tue, 04/29/2014 - 08:55

#10

Krakob

That's a really vague definition of a play style. There's no reason one can't master several styles in SK and there's no reason one might be bad at one because one uses several styles at once. For example, Combuster is one of the best swordsman weapons around and it can definitely go from Haven to the core alone. Using it with say, Stagger Storm, won't make it any less powerful or harder to master.

Tue, 04/29/2014 - 12:58

#11

Shadowstarkirby

It doesn't really work

You can't just choose play styles down to the true nitty gritty like this cause there's a lot of factors that will change how you'll play. You might be playing the first set like an Assassin, killing priority targets by sneaking through the shadows and making sure that mender over there is crushed, but if that doesn't work out, there isn't any particular reason you can't use another play style in the same situation, like, "Soldier", and kill the mender and everything else, a party member might drop so you'll have to adjust to something else to fill their role as a "Soldier", and even the weapons your using can be used in more ways than one, like Blitz used for offense and defense.

"Swordie, "Gunner", "Bomber", and "Hybrid" are about as close to categorization as it's going to get. Maybe there can be a offensive and defensive (which is support for bombers) prefixes to our current labels if anything.

Tue, 04/29/2014 - 09:51

#12

Thinslayer

My two cents.

Don't discount any of these playstyles so easily.

Labels like "swordsman," "gunslinger," "bomber," and "hybrid" are popular for a good reason - they DO, in fact, represent entire playstyles. What do hybrids do? I'm a hybrid myself; I use my sword for most of my DPS and for rushing important enemies, and I use my gun on the approach and retreat (AP and Valiance are great for these roles, respectively).

Swordsmen don't do anything with their weapons on the approach or retreat because they haven't the range for that. Instead, they must always be on their toes, engaging the enemy. In a pinch, if their health is low, they may resort to charge-spamming.

Gunslingers are usually the snipers, preferring to keep their distance, but I'm still a swordsman at heart, so I often get up close and personal with my guns, dodging and weaving in between monsters to keep them from moving too much.

Bombers are typically the support type, either supporting with group damage, knockback, or status effects. That never really changes no matter what bomb you're carrying, whether it's a vortex, haze, or blast bomb.

Bombers will still be bombers even if they carry a sword with them. Swordsmen will be swordsmen even if they carry guns with them (like I do!). The same goes for gunslingers. To use Fehzor's titles:
*Hybrids are usually Assassins.
*Bombers are usually crowd-controllers.

What Fehzor is doing is simply applying different names to the above four playstyles.

Tue, 04/29/2014 - 12:52

#13

Fehzor

But what do you DO as a hybrid? I can focus on DPS or I can focus on supporting the team, or I can focus on assassinating an enemy... all as a hybrid.

Gunner doesn't have to imply sniping people. It can imply point blank shooting things with autoguns, or even just basic combat.

Tue, 04/29/2014 - 13:00

#14

Shadowstarkirby

I don't think I understand?

If all this is is just applying different names, then why? No one is going to know that "Assassin" means killing priority targets while ignoring other enemies (following Fehzor's idea, you'd play Assassin for a little bit, kill a Mender, and then go back to being a Soldier the rest of the way until another Mender or something really dangerous appears). If I follow what you said Thinslayer, that "Assassins" are mostly "Hybrids", then a lot of BKC/Chaos and Gunslinger/Wolver players have been doing their job wrong and have been playing "Soldier" instead...

The reason why the current labels, which are just fine, "Swordie", "Gunslinger", and "Bomber", exist is because there are weapons and armors with bonuses towards those weapons that allow such a play style to exist. "Hybrid" is just mixing the two (or even three if you're frisky) styles together and being able to use the styles proficiently. There just really isn't a more specialized class than those four unless you want to break it down to offensive and defensive/support.

Tue, 04/29/2014 - 14:00

#15

Bluencool

Yawn.

Knights are able to deal so much damage that they rarely need to take on specific roles. They just go for the weapons they are comfortable with, develop a playstyle and kill. It is possible to be as efficient or stronger by sharing roles, but no one wants to elaborate to be a crowd controller or a sniper. They are bombers, they are gunners, they deal damage, and that's all to it.

1- All situations reward the right combination of roles.
2- Almost all situations reward damage dealers as well.
3- Very few situations actually require the right combination of the roles.

Why bother elaborating when your insane killing speed solves almost all your problems?

Note: I wrote and deleted a wall of text right here.

Tue, 04/29/2014 - 14:14

#16

Bopp

in defense of the thread

People are kind of jumping on Fehzor right now, so let me say some words of support.

Certainly "sworder, gunner, bomber, hybrid" is an unambiguous, easy-to-use, precise classification. Fehzor's classification will never be so clear-cut. But that doesn't mean that he's asking a bad question, or giving a useless answer. When talking to novice players, and designing strange new loadouts for ourselves, maybe it would be helpful to consider the roles that we play, not just the weapons that we use.

Pretty much everybody I've seen (except Bluencool in post #15) acknowledges two roles in Spiral Knights: offense (deal damage as fast as possible) and support (spread status, crowd control, knock back, etc.). Fehzor is just trying to see whether other roles can be identified.

It's also clear to me that battle sprites were supposed to emphasize such roles: drakon is offense, seraphynx is support, and maskeraith is a vague attempt at introducing stealth into the game. So I believe that the game designers are thinking along the same lines as Fehzor (whether or not they have succeeded).

Tue, 04/29/2014 - 23:25

#17

Xephyris

Woah there

I never even thought about this that much. But swordie, gunner, bomber, is normally just what people call it when you use those types of weapons, it doesn't necessarily mean that each person has specific roles among people. The main reason why these titles sprung up is because of the specialty armours. It's always better to stick to one type of weapon if the armour you're wearing gives you bonuses for that weapon.

Having all these 'classes' like assassin, soldier etc. sound sort of redundant and over-complicated. I'm sure if done right and with enough people who know what they're doing it could make a party just a tad more efficient. So for those people who read this thread and what to do that, great. The rest of us will continue running around like uncivilised barbarians.

Wed, 04/30/2014 - 00:51

#18

Drischa

This game is completely unrestrictive on gear - you can have a player wearing skolver with a brandish holding a huge volcanic plate shield with no negative impact on the player from the player using a huge shield with their character that is obviously meant to use faster weapons.

while this is a good thing, as it allows for the experimentation of different gear without creating an entire new knight, it also completely throws most gear out the window, becuase people can use something that is outright better.

I know that it's not going to change, but that's my thoughts.

Poor guardian gear gather dust in Izola's store. If only it reduced damage taken to almost nothing and the offensive armours all died in a couple of hits or so. It might be viable then!

Wed, 04/30/2014 - 07:41

#19

Krakob

@Bopple Sprites

I believe the sprites were more based on the LD classes, which reflect said roles even better.
Defence = Seraphynx = Guardian. Has a shield, greater ability to heal. Guardians on the field with their shield, Seraphynx with Heart Attack. Also applies area denial with faster bombs for Guardians and the beam for the Seraphynx.
Offense = Drakon = Striker. This is probably the worst comparison but it still works a bit to some extent. The Flame Barrier puts emphasis on getting into close quarters and dealing heavy damage through correct movement. Likewise, a Striker is usually one to primarily use swords to deal damage in close quarters and even more so if they are able to consitently hit by applying the correct motion to follow their opponent.
Stealth = Maskeraith = Recon. Quills are much like a death mark. An enemy with quills or a death mark will take higher damage, although in different ways. The cloak is obviously quite the same as Maskeraith's invisibility and lastly, the Hexing Haze essentially turns you into a bomb, kind of reflecting Recon's extreme bomb CTR.

Wed, 04/30/2014 - 09:16

#20

Bopp

agreed

I agree. Let me put it this way: Three Rings designed roles into Lockdown. Then they realized that roles were a good idea. Then they tried to retrofit them onto the PvE game as well, with mixed success.

Wed, 04/30/2014 - 12:42

#21

Fehzor

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that what I defined as roles are THE set of roles, or that we shouldn't ever say "gunner" or "bomber" again.

But I AM arguing that players don't play "gunner" or "bomber" as much as they play "support" or "sniper", or whatever you want to call them, and that we should discuss + reconsider what we tell people based on this. As an example:

Gunner General Questions

Dymulus's concept of being "a gunner" is defined clearly in the OP.

"My Ideal load-out would be focused around raw DPS:
Piercing: Blitz Needle (This seems to be hands down the best piercing damage gun in the game.)
Elemental: Argent Peacemaker or Storm Driver
Shadow: Setenza or Umbra Driver"

She wants to be a damage dealer, and just focus on being able to deal damage quickly. This, and not the use of handguns, is Dymulus's role in her party. Asking only about handguns limits Dymulus greatly however- if her party includes one other gunner and a swordsman, she would be largely redundant when normal encounters appeared, and would be relatively lacking compared to her potential when tougher encounters came along. Think of Firestorm Citadel, and pretend that no one brought anything but alchemers. Slag pops up? DEAD IN SECONDS! Trojan pops up? Blitz would be better no matter how you want to spin it.

Instead, if we recommended that she craft items that were conducive to many play styles, she would be much better off. For instance, Bopp wrote:

"First, most levels don't really require all three damage types. For example, if you're in a gremlin level, then you'll see a lot of gremlins and constructs, and maybe occasionally a silkwing, but rarely other fiends and beasts. So you don't really need piercing. So use three weapon slots if you like, but use just two if you want to save money."

Which is exactly correct until you encounter a massive number of mecha knights at the end of an arena, and get stuck without some means of killing the mender. Not an impossible scenario, as you can still blitz the menders to death, but still a challenging one. But what about bringing venom veilor? You can still gun AND use venom veilor, can't you? Just pull out venom veilor when you need it and kill the constructs w/out having to deal with the menders. Using other weapons is fun anyway.

But why leave it at that? Most levels have exactly one type that benefits them most. If you were to add a status haze bomb AND the one type that benefits, you could play a sort of defensive support role type thing. For instance, use your gun whenever there are small encounters, or whenever you need to kill something quickly at the start of a wave. Then, to help take down the big bad, you can slow the other mobs around it that respawn. By doing this, you make an opening for the swordy (who, as predicted is just a "soldier") to strike. Or, if they really just want guns, then they'd want something like hail driver, so as to sneak in shots and freeze the big bad.

Yes, Dymulus can focus primarily on guns if they want to. That's fine. No, they shouldn't limit themselves by doing so, as that could easily lead to failure.

Fri, 05/02/2014 - 05:42

#22

Bopp

lost me

You lost me a little bit in this post. If I'm a damage gunner a gremlin/construct arena, then I'm carrying Nova/Storm and Umbra. When gremlin menders appear, I Umbra-charge them.

Your point stands that people get narrowly focused on one weapon type, sometimes to the detriment of their performance. Xephyris has identified the reason: The armor situation (before the Chaos buff, anyway) encouraged specialization by weapon type. And stuff like the Gunslinger Guide, Bombing Guide, and my sword guide make the idea seem "normal".

Maybe there should be a guild (or group of friends) operating under this rule: In any party, no two knights may carry the same weapon (e.g. Combuster). A stronger version is: No two knights may carry the same weapon style (e.g. Brandish upgrade). This kind of arbitrary rule can encourage people to equip in novel ways.

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Should weapon types really be play styles?