Spiral Knights - Wolver's Dens

Wolver's Dens

16 replies [Last post]

Tue, 01/04/2011 - 22:32

Polantaris

Legacy Username

Either Green needs to be able to give something besides Wolver's Dens, or Wolver's Dens need to have more variety.

We have that new Gate that started today, and while it doesn't even reach Tier 2, I thought I'd give it a try for fun. It can give Areans, but I happened to hit none of them. I hit every single Wolver's Den in the gate. There's two, maybe three variations on this map, and even those are pretty damn similar. After 5 minutes I wanted to shoot myself. Wolver's Dens are horrible. They are exactly the same map design every single time, and never spawn any different enemy...I mean I know it's a Wolver's Den, but still...give us something different once in a while, the entire map doesn't need to be Wolvers.

I mean, I know not a lot of areas have a lot of variation yet, however for some reason Wolver's Dens stick out the most. Wolvers aren't even a very entertaining monster, and unlike other monster types, they don't have any variation really either. Each Tier has the same type of mini-boss Wolver and regular monster Wolver, and it doesn't change in that Tier, so in a Gate like the new one, it's exactly the same thing over and over and over until you go insane.

Wed, 01/05/2011 - 01:04

Evolution

Legacy Username

I'd say you should be happy

I'd say you should be happy it doesn't go all the way to the Core. Wolver's Dens with those stone wolvers are even more annoying. Wolvers teleporting around every second, there's just no fun in having to kill those over and over again.. They're a challenging enemy, yes, but they don't make for a fun enemy if you throw so many at us.

I have the same problem with Ironwoods and its family members. They're easy to kill, just take ages to die. No challenge in there, similar to wolvers. It's a pure grind to kill those in my opinion. However, I think most of this comes from the lack of monster types. I've faced them way too much already without healthy change, and that's due to this little set of monsters we only have at the moment. I would love to see a lot more types of monsters and level types added. And I do mean a lot.

Wed, 01/05/2011 - 02:06

Polantaris

Legacy Username

I've fought them before, if

I've fought them before, if it went down to the core and was all Wolver's Dens...yeah I wouldn't have touched the gate at all. I just wanted to see if they actually have a different map other than those two or three.

Although the Ironclads are bad alone, in a group like they appear in the Arena they can be deadly at times, as well as in tight areas like they are sometimes. They aren't always horribly boring like Wolvers are. The Ninja Wolver, or whatever it's called, is only bad because it teleports all the dang time.

The problem I think is that the group of monsters we have aren't evenly cycled throughout regular maps. Yeah we might get 10 runs of Wolver's Dens, but even if they were random I think it would still be horrible, because the only thing that spawns is Wolvers. If just the main monster was Wolvers on the other hand...I think it might be better off. For example, throw in a couple of Slimes once in a while, and maybe once in a while an Ironclad or Tongue Lizard also.

But yeah, the two things that need major revamping soon are the types of enemies, and the areas. I'm starting to get bored of the areas, after playing only a week or so. I think I wouldn't care too much about the enemies if the areas they were in weren't the same cycled map or cycled random map with a possibility of 10 or so different rooms that we've seen over and over.

I can't imagine it would be hard to add new rooms the random dungeons can create, and I think only a very specific amount of maps should be set. Wolver's Den shouldn't be one of them. The Citadels/Cities should be set, like the Dark City, but generic areas you get all over the place shouldn't, and should be random at all times. When the area requires Floor X to appear, it should be set, like Firestom Citadel always being near the end of the gate, however the generic ones like Jelly Farm, Wolver's Den, and others, should be random.

Wed, 01/05/2011 - 03:34

Sarcusa

Not to mention, Wolver's Den

Not to mention, Wolver's Den gives half the crowns a stage normally gives <_< Gate creation definitely needs tweaking, maybe putting in a lot of restrictions to prevent horrible gates. And from what I'm seeing, we might not get a fun gate for a while (that reaches the core that is) as there aren't many minerals in the new red gate... Actually, there's been a real lack of players as of late so reaching the core is getting quite a bit harder (probably not an issue in on release but right now it is)

Anyways like you said, we should have some locks so that only specific levels appear at specific depths while also restricting repeating levels (So yes, no more 100 arenas in a row but it's for the best v_v). Ack and treasure vaults are just the worst also.

Wed, 01/05/2011 - 05:32

Kaybol

Legacy Username

@Evolution

Evolution: there's a strategy for every monster. Wolvers really aren't that challenging once you've found their weak spot, doesn't really matter how many there are (although any type of monster is overwhelming once your screen is full of them). Especially Ash Wolvers (lol ninja wolvers) are very exploitable.

And I can kill an Ironwood in 1 charged strike + 1-2 extra hits from my Dread Striker, when I take 'em one by one like that it doesn't take ages.

Wed, 01/05/2011 - 06:21

Evolution

Legacy Username

Well yeah, a Dread Venom

Well yeah, a Dread Venom Striker is a 5* weapon though, a class that doesn't quite have an appropriate tier from Haven to Core? (unless if the Core itself is going to be that place to be for it) But regardless of that, an Ironwood (or any from that same family) takes roughly more than two or three times as long for a kill compared to a normal monster. Due to its slowness in both movement and attacking though, it's no threat at all even with its extra health and defense. Whenever I have to kill one, the only thing I experience is annoyance for having to hit that attack button so often without having to interact at all with the game regarding in coming threats from it. The only reason I get hurt by these honestly, is because I'm too bored to move aside an inch if a second is making its swing at me. That can hardly be the point of the game right?

Wed, 01/05/2011 - 06:51

Pauling

Overzealous puppies

The real problem with Wolver's dens comes in tier 3, when you face ash wolvers.

Wolvers will teleport to meet you as soon as they get anywhere in range. As you travel up the spiral path, you face all the wolvers on your part of the path PLUS all the wolvers on the next coil of the path. If you survive that zergrush, then eventually you reach a point where there's a long distance to go before you reach the elevator, but all the enemies slated for that section are already dead. You end up spending a boring 30 seconds just watching your character walk.

Wed, 01/05/2011 - 17:07

ENDCRAB

Legacy Username

I was under the impression

I was under the impression that green gave areas like emerald islands, and when mixed with purple, concrete jungle. Wolver's dens are from mixing red and green.

Wed, 01/05/2011 - 17:40

Polantaris

Legacy Username

I don't know which gems are

I don't know which gems are specifically used to make Wolver's Dens, however I knew that the gate was Red and Green, and I knew Red made Arenas, so I assumed it was Green that made Wolver's.

Wolver's appear ALL OVER. I'm pretty sure at least 2-3 gates have an excess of Wolver's Dens in a row, over and over. It's irritating when you just happen to hit every single one of them, because there's no variance what so ever. I could take the monster if the map wasn't the same exact thing over and over.

Honestly, new monsters are fine and dandy, but the Developers need to add a ton more variance to the map possibilities. The monster spawns wouldn't be so bothersome and getting so old if we had a possibility of 15,000 different combinations of rooms, instead of 10-15.

And while they're at it, someone else mentioned the lack of players recently preventing Gates from Reaching the Core. I think, because this is an Invitation Only Event, the requirements to create floors should be drastically lowered. If the Player Base stays the same it is now, I'll finally get access to Tier 3 and never find a Tier 3 Gate again.
It doesn't help that people are focusing too much on getting "Perfect X" gates, instead of working on just making the damn Gate. I agree that we should have some form to making the gates, but trying to get a "Perfect Arena Grind Gate" is literally impossible while the game remains in the Preview Event(s). We may get one, but it will only go down 17 Floors if we're lucky. It won't make it to the bottom, which is where you guys want it to get. We need to focus on being able to create gates at all, because before long we're going to have a set of Tier 1/2 max gates, and when that happens we will lose players because people don't want to grind on Tier 2 areas with 5 star equipment.

Sat, 01/08/2011 - 16:26

ENDCRAB

Legacy Username

We've had max arena gates hit

We've had max arena gates hit the core before, except christmas time had vanaduke at the end, (I started then so I don't know if red always makes vanaduke at the lowest level or not) we just lost a lot of the regulars when the good arena gates got dropped off the map and the guy manipulating the energy market quit, so prices rose, leading to more people dropping the game. And for things like the wolver's den arena gate emerald queen was (seriously if you have to try breaking a red gate, guys, don't use green) If you wait log enough, the gate below you will change. If you write down the levels that appear before you go on a run, and you have either patience or good timing, you can hit all the levels you want to.

As for the population problem, I'll see if I can't get twenty or thirty new players with my invites later tonight.

Sat, 01/08/2011 - 16:52

#10

Cromendi

@ENDCRAB There was never

@ENDCRAB

There was never really "guy manipulating the energy market", the price was low because the rush of new players.

In fact this current market is actually stable because now the newbie's need for crowns are stabilizing.

Back before the rush of the new blood, 10k for 100ec was a pretty good deal.

There is also a gate map in you options, no need to write down stuff.

One last thing.... in case you haven't heard, nick manually set all gate to have firestorm citadel during the xmas season.

Sat, 01/08/2011 - 17:50

#11

ENDCRAB

Legacy Username

There actually was a guy

There actually was a guy playing the market in No Fun Allowed, I won't reveal his name without asking him, and I can't now because I haven't seen him on in a good while, but he spent more time messing with the market than playing the game. Thank you for the gate map tip, I haven't waited for gates often except in emerald queen so I hadn't thought to check for one. I had heard about firestorm being set for all gates, but as it is a red colored level, I thought it might always appear in the lower depths of tier 3 red gates.

Sat, 01/08/2011 - 17:59

#12

Cromendi

Ah, guy must had some serious

Ah, guy must had some serious pocket change then.

Still, after a while he won't have any control over it even if he can pour in a good amount of funding anyway.

Sun, 01/09/2011 - 20:37

#13

Darkgales

Legacy Username

well honestly i dont care if

well honestly i dont care if it reaches the core or not a gate with a tier 1 full of arenas is nice enough

Fri, 01/21/2011 - 00:39

#14

Seth

Legacy Username

Wolvers Dens compared to

Wolvers Dens compared to Firestorm Citadel (at parts) are good examples of boring and fun maps, respectively. I mean, Wolvers Den you literally just run around fighting the exact same enemy type for the entire dungeon. This is not challanging, this is not fun, it's boring and the map doesn't even give very good crown.

Firestorm Citadel, on the other hand, has you fighting a decent mixture and density of enemies with hazards and the like to mix it up. I mean, the shooting ranges where you just shot skellies as they walked over a spiked floor weren't particularly exciting, but some of the other spots were very scary. You had Trojans which actually present a huge threat when flaming skeletons are covering their backs, said skeletons making up the footsoldiers of the army, Flamethrower Puppies presenting a extreme ranged damage potential, all at once. On top of that there were spikes and flames everywhere, and in a couple instances there were totems you had to move amidst it all. Even Ash Tails were used to an effective extent in one room, where they're actually threatening due to the ability to quickly approach and attack with the huge threat of fire skellies/trojans/puppies in extremely close proximity.

I mean honestly, what it comes down to is that maps like Clockworks and Wolvers Dens are boring. This isn't just because you fight just one type of enemy the WHOLE WAY, but also because the density is very, very low. To compare to, say, Diablo 2 (I know it may be an overused example, but the game is successful and fun for a reason.) the enemies not only get progressively stronger and gain more abilities (which Three Rings has actually done a pretty good job of doing) over time, but you fight MUCH larger groups, more often than not consisting of various different enemies with different abilities.

To put it simply, by tier 3 you should already know more or less what every single enemy does. When you fight a huge mob of the same enemy, you just end up doing that one thing to beat them for an extended period of time. There is no effort or difficulty in it, unless the mob is just so huge that you're overwhelmed, which tends to be an equipment issue more than a skill issue. If you're fighting a huge clump of slimes and you have a 5* salt and/or Freeze bomb then you'll be able to just do more or less the same thing constantly and win, whereas if you're fighting a mix between Slimes and Fire Puppies with spike floors, then it's a lot more difficult because you can't freeze the Puppies, but while you're killing them the Slimes will be able to approach, and it'll be hard to escape due to the floors. This is also where party play becomes useful, because while the enemies have more HP you can multitask between someone keeping the Slimes at bay utilizing Freeze bombs while the other tries to take the puppies out before one of them gets toasted. Gremlins are cool, but they need to be used in larger groups and/or in closer quarters/with spiked corners so it's not so easy to just circle strafe them to death.

So really, this is just my really long way of saying: If you want people to have fun killing stuff, then have them kill more kinds of stuff more often. Tier 3 IS the endgame, players at that point shouldn't need easy maps where you kill little groups of 3 of the same mob at a time. Regardless of what new toy those 3 mobs might have, that's the kind of spawns that should be in tier 1(where people are learning the game) only.

Fri, 01/21/2011 - 03:24

#15

Kaybol

Legacy Username

matter of taste

I think it's all just a matter of taste. Personally I enjoy Wolvers Dens a lot. Fighting lots of the same enemy doesn't necessarily mean it's not challenging (there's plenty of people who think wolvers are a difficult enemy to fight, myself not included). Pity that the payout doesn't compare to other levels. And sure, it's not the most fun level of all, but it beats clockworks any day.

And sorry, Firestorm Citadel most of the time is just tedious and annoying to me. The endless running back and forth with waterdrops, dodging spikes in rooms overcrowded with zombies, dodging cartwheels while being set on fire. I'd pick an arena over Firestorm Citadel any day.

Fri, 01/21/2011 - 19:09

#16

Seth

Legacy Username

Well, Arena happens to be my

Well, Arena happens to be my second favorite map, but everything gets tedious if you do it repeatedly. Arena is a good example of a map where you just want to kill lots of stuff, a Diablo-type experience, I just wish we'd get more/varied/difficult arenas instead of 2 very slight variations every tier.

Firestorm Citadel is more of the 'full' experience that this game has been working toward. It combines good fighting fighting (and you have to admit the fights in Firestorm are much more exciting than the ones in Arena. There's no two ways about it.) with good platforming (I liked dodging firewheels while carrying water, though others may not. It does get a little slow at times, though, like if you choose to go up the right side staircase instead of the left.) it felt a lot more like a LoZ Four Swords type experience that I hear is used to describe this game a lot.

Personally, I'm hoping for both of the above. Some people just want to get down and dirty and kill stuff, others want a mix. At the very least, though, Arena and Danger Rooms are both nice but a tweak should be considered so they have some other unit/room combinations. (A trojan with just two skeletons/fairies in the first room is beyond silly, for example.)

Anyway, just noticed something in the patch notes: - "Many of the custom levels have undergone a few tweaks to balance difficulty and include a few new components like energy doors."
Well, hopefully balance difficulty means they're harder.. And more energy rooms means more Danger Rooms. We'll just have to see.

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