If you've tested all the guns, list the top 3 guns you think are the best.
- Does Iron Slug stun?
If you've tested all the guns, list the top 3 guns you think are the best.
- Does Iron Slug stun?
Tested? no
Stun? no
Wait to post this thread later? Yes
...no comment on whether we should/should not talk about this.
Winter grave has been revealed as an ice type magnus line. I'm going to assume that it is EXACTLY like the other magnuses, and that there has been no change to its normal attack or charge attack in any way, but that as Nick said there might be one. I feel like the KGB is breathing on the back of my neck. I really hate this feeling, and it makes me regret posting here every time I feel it.
NONE of this takes into consideration information from the testing server.
Whats going to happen
Compared to the other magnus lines, a shadow themed one would enable the classic "Make both and switch for extra damage :D" argument, which is almost impossible to overcome and makes normal weapons have a very hard time getting off the ground or find use at all for that matter. Imagine if triglav were shadow themed. Would you really want to craft sudaruska?
The freeze status would make it work well for picking off specific enemies. Freeze them, follow up with sword. The only issue is that if its at the same status ratio as other items such as callahan, then it would be relatively worthless for this role too, and would be outclassed by hail driver for the most part.
The best possible implementation that won't happen, because it never does
The best move on OOO's part would be to have it deal half the damage as iron slug, but always freeze enemies. If it isn't possible to make the freeze chance ~100%, then it should just flat out drop a tiny mist bomb that deals freeze. This would make it an immensely powerful utility weapon, as opposed to a second rate offensive item that still manages to outclass the iron slug.
A mechanics change would work well with this as well, as it would still provide diversity for the weapon. That said, OOO won't do this because they're somehow impotent when it comes to making new creative weapons using the existing weapon mechanics. Instead of providing us with something interesting, they're far more likely to just break the game further. Just as they have proven in the past.
^They are trying to be crowd pleasers, and trying to please everyone usually tends to please no one. But its like 10 or so devs (i think ) answering to the beck and call of thousands of players. I completely get how they are having a hard time.
But the only tthing to do is wait and see eh?
That doesn't change the fact that they haven't learned from their past mistakes on these things. It shouldn't take 10 people to figure out the normal damage issue.
@Bopp I think Fehzor is talking about how normal damage weapons are less used compared to the specialized weapons of the same family, like Polaris vs Supernova.
Normal damage is more of a problem for swords than for guns and bombs since most commonly used swords have split damage and deal significantly more damage than normal swords even against neutral enemies. Guns don't have split damage so the using a normal weapon gives comparable damage when we aren't aiming for super effective damage. Also, unlike normal swords, normal guns often have useful crowd control effects and sometimes it is preferred to reduce weapon slot usage by having a single universal normal gun for such purposes.
I can see Iron Slug's niche as a universal gun to knockdown enemies and interrupt turrets, in some ways a team friendly Supernova. However, I would prefer if Iron Slug have a higher damage over its specialized counterparts rather than having a stun effect since Callahan already fills the role as the stun magnus gun.
If I were to be a shard bomber, then I would want to deal the most damage possible. To accomplish this, I would choose specialized damage, and switch between it whenever necessary. Under no circumstance would I choose the normal shard bomb, because it will never do the most damage to any particular enemy, and that is what I need most as this is by far the most common and for the most part only situation that applies to me.
If I moved on from there, and crafted a sword I might consider a leviathan blade, but more than likely I'd want to try being a first class swordsman rather than a second rate one, and would craft a brandish. The only time I would actually need to craft a normal sword is if I'm starting out, and that would be largely temporary.
If I can craft iron slug or callahan, I'm more likely to craft callahan purely because it would give me an advantage on occasion over crafting the iron slug, which I know will be mediocre all of the time.
The issue, is that you cannot just slap the numbers around on normal weapons and call it a day. If you make normal better for 4/6 of the families, then it will make specialized damage useless, and that would be terrible. If you make it better for 2/6 of the families, then it isn't worth crafting at all.
Most normal items are not worth crafting. Sudaruska is good, but for serious use it falls short to specialized damage. Cutters are high damage normal items that are only viable late into the game, and require serious effort. Leviathan blade is always worse than whichever brandish works. Valiance is good for normal damage on hybrid loadouts, but is outclassed by other guns for just purely dealing damage with handguns. You get the gist.
The solution is seen best in Nitronome. There are no substitutes for nitronome. Dark briar barrage works as one, but falls short against slimes and other mobs of that sort and lacks knockback, making nitronome still hold its spot as a prominent item. Nitronome has an undeniable role in the game that no other item can measure up to- spammy knockback and basic area damage that protects whoever is under it, and kills the rest of the party. But the big thing is that it still has a role at all, despite not being specialized damage.
If OOO made iron slug the high damage option, then it would be able to knock down turrets and anything, and that would balance it out with the others, who could do less damage but be more status oriented. This would be especially plausible since the items in question have ice and stun respectively, fairly useful statuses that would offer great utility if dealt often.
Imagine:
Callahan = unchanged stats, gets 100% chance of stun per shot
Ice Magnus = same as callahan, 100% freeze
Iron Slug = no status, deals 1.5X current damage, extra knockdown
This kind of creative design is basically what we need to save normal damage. It doesn't have to be a big deal, just changes in existing mechanics. Giving the cutters a third hit, making sudaruska/triglav always deal their statuses, making valiance stagger enemies more often, these kinds of things could balance out the lack of damage that we see so often in normal weapons.
Maybe the devs have a better solution, but I really don't think they do. Which is really on them.
100% stun?
RIP shield bash even moreso.
Cheese dooooooodles.
If I were to be a shard bomber...
Yes, then you would never select normal weapons. But the way that you have framed the question biases your answer. Many players don't want to be "shard bombers", or even "bombers" or "sworders". They want diversity in weapon types --- for example, one sword and one gun. Normal weapons suit that mindset pretty well. That is the role of normal weapons.
This mindset doesn't show up much on these forums, because these forums are populated by people who are unusually interested in Spiral Knights --- optimizing their gear, collecting every last item, trying novel loadouts, etc.
The issue is muddied further by blatant imbalances such as Acheron. If CIV were the outrageously powerful sword (for example, if the charge did much more damage), then we'd be having a different conversation.
I agree that the developers could easily increase the diversity of desirable weapons, by playing with mechanics already in place, other than damage: status, knockback, range, attack speed, movement while attacking, charge time, interruption, etc. I agree that Nitronome fills a great "fast knockback" niche. Although its damage is identical to "normal DBB", it plays extremely differently from how DBB plays.
Here's my prediction: ASI will be popular for Callahan, CTR for Iron Slug, and either/both for Winter Grave.
I'll save my judgements until after the update is dropped.
If I were to want a sword and gun, then the best sword combination for me would be to craft a nightblade for the jelly king, and then a combuster for other places. For my gun, the best combination would probably be the alchemers or argent peacemaker/sentenza. I could craft valiance, but I would be stronger if I didn't, because it only deals normal damage.
Some players, largely the uninformed ones, will indeed go for normal weapons. But anyone wanting to actually have the best possible set of crafts would want to go for specialized damage regardless of how many weapon types they're holding. Even if I started with normal weapons, if I chose to branch out later they would immediately get outclassed by specialized damage, and would begin to gather dust. Normal weapons occasionally find places in the game where they fit, but are most often simply outclassed and never used in favor of specialized options.
This is problematic for the game, and should have been looked into long ago.
I stand by my remarks above, but here are some more nuanced comments:
Normal weapons were more useful before arsenal stations, because you had to choose your weapons for an entire stratum at once. I admit that I still equipped non-normal weapons, but that's because I used only swords. Arsenal stations certainly tipped the scales in favor of specialized equipment.
I think that compounds are an attempt to mix up the types of monsters encountered in a single level, to bring some value back to normal weapons. So maybe the developers are aware of the issue.
Compounds also seem to give bombers more of a purpose (not saying they aren't great but in regular parties the monsters they target to kill often get brandish/pulsar blasted out of range), because when hordes of monsters are pouring in on all sides you don't really want a gunner or a swordknight, you really want a bomber to knockback/kill everything around you.
I agree that bombs are natural for compounds. Nitronome is very effective. The big swords (DA, GF, Suda, Trig) are also effective, because they can sweep so many little monsters at once. Regular attacks from Brandishes are much less effective. But Brandish users just lay waste to everything anyway, by charging.
i would use the norm shards more often if they had more knockdown :t
+1 to fehzor.
All three guns will be fairly well balanced.
Iron slug will be used purely for charge attacks on mixed mobs (arenas, danger rooms etc)
Callahan will still be great for stun-locking beasts, fiends and gremlins, and will have a great charge for groups of slags.
Winter Grave will wreck packs of slimes and will replace Callahan for sniping gremlins.
In the end, it will all be a matter of preference. Though, Iron Slug will be the most versatile, being Normal damage.
Nothing stopping me from getting my hands on all three, though.
Despite the fact the gunner update hasn't even been released yet, and is subject to change...
Last I checked, normally people figure that "subject to change" typically precedes any advice and anything posted is a prediction based on current conditions within test server without giving too much away so the OP can be lazy and not seek it out.
I believe this would apply as a spoiler thread. You may not want to post this.
Comparing the Winter Grave with the Callahan and Slug is already pretty dangerous. (Even though by now everyone could have guessed).