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Using a Callahan because Polaris and Drivers are too mainstream.

9 replies [Last post]
Tue, 06/10/2014 - 11:58
Kyborg-Kiske's picture
Kyborg-Kiske

I've heard that the Callahan can be pretty deadly in PvP if used correctly, but its rarely-seen existence in Lockdown seems to say otherwise.

But it's not a bad gun by any means.

Based on the gun's behavior, I think it's more of an offensive tool like Valiance and the Driver lines. The bullets themselves come out fairly quick and have a slightly large hitbox (I think it covers the tile it's on and about... half the adjacent tile in each direction?), so it's not exactly "easy" to escape the bullets.

It also has a good chance of causing Stun, which in some cases can be more useful than the Storm Driver's Shock, especially against players who are practically MARRIED to their Gran Faust. Even if you're shocked, you can still fight for a few seconds before you start spazzing again; getting stunned makes it impossible to fight, considering you're slower than a Lumber and it takes you two seconds to swing your sword. Also consider that there aren't that many sets that protect against Stun. and the Callahan is one of the more useful weapons that inflict it, the other being the Stagger Storm.

It's also one of the few guns that deal Piercing damage, and though I've heard tales of people bringing a Blitz Needle to Lockdown every now and then, I've yet to see its success firsthand. Though it'll lose against Skolvers, people might be more inclined to create builds that counter against the Gran Faust and other weapons commonly found in the Lockdown metagame, encouraging the need to bring Piercing weapons like the Barbarous Thorn Blade.

Ah, but does it deserve a slot that could be used to switchfire Storm and Hail Drivers all day?

Tue, 06/10/2014 - 12:48
#1
Retequizzle's picture
Retequizzle

in many capacities you actually understate the usefulness of what a callahan can really do, but in the same vein, it goes without saying that there are few players who can fully utilize a callahan in a playstyle that can keep up with everything else, so it's important to keep what it CAN do versus what YOU can do with it in perspective. in most cases i believe it's 5 shots from a callahan to drop your average striker. playing it with a hybrid mentality or even just using nothing but swords and keeping callahan tucked away for players who try to create some distance, the only "wrong" way i can think of using it is to consistently belt out both shots and leave yourself vulnerable for that long.

it also doesn't really have an armor that it is unplayable against, unlike valiance and some drivers in certain scenarios - but at that point, we're going into specifics that really aren't applicable. if you can consistently land the shots when they count, the range from the callahan more than makes up for the lack of playability behind it in most aspects, and can make for a quick "skillshot" for lack of a better term.

in the event they ever make a return to the game for more than a few days at a time, tmdals is one of the few people i've seen ask about magnus lines, and then take a callahan and readily outplay me with it. so if there's anyone who can speak with more authority on it in practice rather than in theory, it'd be him.

Tue, 06/10/2014 - 13:56
#2
Seiran's picture
Seiran

@Behavior:
It has 1 tile more distance than drivers, so I guess you can use it vs people who use those. Its charge also has 1 tile more distance than Polaris' max distance, which is also more than enough to snipe completely off-screen from below, so if you say it's an "offensive" gun by virtue of its getting first hit vs those, I guess that's true. But as far as first hit goes, it's also outranged by valiance and has less mobility.

I don't think its normal shot is any wider, sorry. When it makes contact, it spawns a (surprisingly small) explosion hitbox at least half a tile behind it, and that gives it the illusion of its extra range. It's small enough that if you hit certain blocks in clockworks, you might even see a 'precise' explosion that hits an inner block without breaking the outer blocks around it. It's stupid. Speaking of 'stupid', a Callahan has less width and longer animation for normal attacks than a Rigadoon :\

Its charge shot is 3 tiles wide, making it similar to Blaster/Silversix charges and Pulsar large bullets.

@Piercing:
I was (and mostly am) against using Callahan because Skolver was the most popular set before, making Callahan's "power" so much weaker (and making its tradeoff for mobility even worse). With the rise of Acheron and BKC, however, we're running into less piercing and more shadow gear, so I guess it has its use vs those now. It never hurts to have a deathmarked target to give the finger to 'high defense' targets.

@Blitz:
Blitz is for fun. It eats people who don't have invincibility frames (anyone holding charge attack, anyone who's shocked). But it's really not a viable 'action' gun.

@Slots:
Just so you know, there's a better switching technique to let you reuse the same weapon, so the slot issue is generally left for the ones who lack the ability to do it. It's much nicer when you have complete control over which damage type and which status you're trying for. Ex: Imagine having the ability to only use hail driver to your heart's desire til you get a freeze, then switching to GF to charge - that's the kind of stuff you can do.

That said, stun+shock together are a fun combo.

Tue, 06/10/2014 - 14:36
#3
Kyborg-Kiske's picture
Kyborg-Kiske
"I was (and mostly am)

"I was (and mostly am) against using Callahan because Skolver was the most popular set before, making Callahan's "power" so much weaker (and making its tradeoff for mobility even worse). With the rise of Acheron and BKC, however, we're running into less piercing and more shadow gear, so I guess it has its use vs those now. It never hurts to have a deathmarked target to give the finger to 'high defense' targets."

I've noticed that a lot, too. Last year it was Skolver clones all day, now I'm seeing a lot more Shadow builds and hybrids. I've been using the Callahan as a sidearm for quite a while, mostly for the Stun effect and the range... and then a third of my kills for the whole game are from gunning people down with the Callahan.

Tue, 06/10/2014 - 19:50
#4
Retequizzle's picture
Retequizzle

what a lot of people fail to realize with skolver resistance and really any armor with resistance to a particular damage type, is that ultimately that defense ends up being tertiary at best without investment into UV buildup under the hood as well; in most cases, it's roughly just over the base 100 defense threshold that zeddy and krakob established quite some time ago, and will usually result in the same amount of hits being required to get the job done. what does change is the percentage left over after each hit, but in many cases that's not enough to make too much of a difference unless you're already dealing with a weapon that will deal damage in the single digit percents (antigua-lines, a single hit from a blitz shot, etc.)

to give you context, a valiance is still a largely effective weapon, despite 95% of almost any armor used in LD - if not more, since i'm possibly overestimating the representation that divine sets have - all maintain a moderate level of normal resistance compared to going without it. however, valiance is still what many consider to be a staple gun for LD loadouts to consider, largely because the damage output even from a non-boosted valiance is impressive for what it is. the same concept applies to the callahan - the damage output is remarkable considering it's a two shot handcannon, but the penalties are a bit more pronounced with the downsides of using it ineffectively. keeping it within the scope of the discussion, the same pierce resistance that's being cited as a potential reason to not consider it was the same pierce resistance that FF dealt with a year and a half ago, and yet it's still a mainstay for most strikers even after the fact. so the argument's a moot one at best, and a bad one from a more realistic standpoint.

tl;dr - if the only drawback you can provide to using callahan is that skolvers will be able to take .5-1 pip less than non-skolvers, then you should probably consider doing more research on the subject. if this were the metagame of a year ago, where a callahan shot would be landing on a (potential) dual pierce max skolver (read: you losing the game of russian roulette) and dealing approximately 7% damage on a dual penta striker, then i would concede the issue. but it's not a year ago, and that's not the metagame.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 05:50
#5
Seiran's picture
Seiran
Valiance vs Callahan

I was (and mostly am) against using Callahan because Skolver was the most popular set before,

derp

idk why I put so much emphasis on that when I wrote the post, but in-game, the actual thing I usually complain about related to Callahan is its lack of mobility: can't turn while shooting to adjust for movement (this could be a personal problem, since I'm more of a twitch shot), can't walk while shooting. The fact that a sword (see: flourish line) can actually attack and cancel faster than a magnus gun is worrying to me, especially for non-striker classes. It's way easier to get hit after you shoot :\

Valiance's use for me has never been for its damage (deathmark aside), but for its utility as an average do-it-all gun:
- Range of AP/Polaris
- Possibility to do V-shots covering enemy paths with 2 bullets at a time
- Knockback for close-range fade shots
- Fast bullet speed

It's my gun of choice when dealing with upper-tier players for those reasons, but not for damage.

It's like my argument for ASI gear over damage: if you have speed and consistency, you can outdo stronger+slower players.

Mon, 06/16/2014 - 15:43
#6
Retequizzle's picture
Retequizzle

oh right i forgot i post on forums every once in a blue moon

also was incredibly confused about why you were speaking against callahan considering at one point you and i were one of the few people who could single switch those things and get things done hahaha

(disclaimer: i am so out of practice with such a method that i can no longer claim to do it)

that being said, the above post highlights why valiance is so viable for any loadout regardless of class choice. for the most part, callahan can do all of that but it's much harder to do V-shots without incredibly fast fingers, and it's impossible to do fadeaway shots. realistically, you can run with nothing but magnus line weapons and, if played correctly, can actually be more of a threat than anyone else in your lobby just by learning the good, ol' fashioned hard way.

however, mistakes with magnus weapons are fatal more often than not, and shot placement is vital - in some cases you need to shoot before anyone's even on screen and that requires a lot of luck and/or estimation, depending on what you want to call it/what people dying to it call it.

tl;dr - master the shot placement and situational awareness for callahan, and it's one of the best guns in the game

Mon, 06/16/2014 - 17:30
#7
Seiran's picture
Seiran

Yeah... it seems I fell under the Spiral Knights balance trap:

Valiance being good isn't really an argument for Callahan being bad.

however, mistakes with magnus weapons are fatal more often than not, and shot placement is vital

Reading back at my reasoning, it's really the same argument for using a 'slow' character in a fighting game (which I have done - my seconds/play-around were slower characters lol): If your prediction and timing are on-point, it yields a better reward per-hit, but because of its speed, you'll be pressured+punished more by people who can move really quickly. So you just have to play a little more self-aware/carefully.

On the upside, it really does have a little more range than alchemers on normal shot, and definitely outranges Polaris on charge, on top of its slightly higher damage. Recon's deathmark does shine with both guns.

Wed, 06/18/2014 - 08:24
#8
Rhons's picture
Rhons
Different Perspective

From what I've read about this discussion about the Callahan, this is what I made out of it (and forgive me if I missed the main point):

I.) Efficiency of Callahan Compared to Other Guns
II.) Damage and Accuracy

As a T3 Recon player, I found some arguments to corroborate and belittle the Callahan (Mega Magnus) in both of the listed categories.

For I.), the long range and near-instant hit is vital for the Recon to support others (mainly Strikers) in dogfights, provided if one knows how to weapon switch to keep a flow of Callahan (Mega Magnus) shots to annoy/stun the enemy. Its range really helps in keeping the Recon out of battle, which is what usually most players think of Recons - Not-so-battle-oriented. When the Recon is alone, the Callahan (Mega Magnus) pairs up well with a Flourish-type weapon if the player knows how to fight with a Flourish. If the Recon strikes first, it's a good change he/she will land two or three hits on the unsuspecting player, with or without AT. After those hits, the Recon could move away while the injured player would then spaz about the area, trying to find the Recon - There, a Callahan (Mega Magnus) would pick them off if a combo was done or if the player runs out of boost (if Striker). If the Striker attacks first and finds the Recon, the Mega Magnus could be excellent in extending range if a chase were to happen (Striker trailing the Recon) that was conveniently straight. The Magnus may not save the Recon's life, but it would certainly guarantee a hit or two back on the assailant. For a Guardian enemy, the Magnus would be strong enough to pierce the shield with ease, provided the shooter is at range and knows how to single switch.

One important thing to note is the Charge - One would be completely stupid (such as me, sometimes) to charge a Magnus randomly in a massive dogfight (unless positioned below screen). However, when a lone/group of enemy/ies is positioned on a cap, that's where the Charge shines brightly. It would indefinitely have more range than a Valiance's (just by a bit, though) or a Driver's charge. Additionally, the enemy/ies is/are usually still and easy to shoot, as the Charge does take time to execute.

However, the Magnus suffers from common strategies such as being encircled by a Striker and from being on the offensive line/first line of offense. There, either the Recon would switch to a sword or another gun.

For II.), the Magnus works better with or without AT, depending on reflexes and time (players are often just a few steps ahead of their positions on your screen). Slow enemies are easy to hit if they just have flown - The range and accuracy would hit him at least one before they're out of range.

For damage, the Magnus does deal a noticeably less value onto Skolvers, but the main defense in Lockdown would be centered on Normal Defense. To add in, I've noticed there are usually more Chaos, Vog, and Snarbolarx armors being used. If all four were equally used, it means the Magnus would deal full damage 3/4 of the occasions the Recon (or now any class, as Recons would only be an argument for the first paragraph) would encounter an enemy. Plus, the Charge is still a murderer, regardless of the armor-type - I found kills on Skolvers to be as common as kills on anyone else by using the Charge. Let's not also forget you could hit more players by the Charge due to its hitbox, and I can recall some good moments where I have landed a Double Kill (and the recipients being in awe of a beautiful shot).

Have I just merely ranted about the Callahan (Mega Magnus) blindly as I tried to relate it towards Recons? I did thought as most of you are Strikers on the arena floor. I've type a lot, though, so I've leaving this post up for criticism and hate (most likely). Hopefully, though, you may see the point I'm trying to make (at least for Recons).

Wed, 06/18/2014 - 08:59
#9
Autofire's picture
Autofire
You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

I'm a recon and a guy who likes Rhons' post. I agree entirely. As a player who (relatively) sucks at LD brawling, the Callahan is a gun I won't leave home without.

The Iron Slug should be good, too, post-gunner update.

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