Spiral Knights - Monkey see, monkey do.....

Monkey see, monkey do.....

45 replies [Last post]

Fri, 06/13/2014 - 14:21

Holy-Nightmare

I have come to the conclusion that we have so many strikers in LD due to the fact that anyone watching the game sees strikers getting the most kills.

Watching strikers is easy, the things most quickly learned are what armors and weapons to pick. (Valiance, Polaris, FF, BTB, GF, Brandishes, BKC, Wolver line, Chaos cloak) They also learn that going for combos is dangerous (short of WMRH, Polaris, GF, DA)

Watching guardians is depressing, short of tanking 2-3 hits for a teammate they are quickly flinchlocked and overwhelmed by the horde of enemy strikers. Aside from team support during a camping session they have few devoted users.

Watching recons is near impossible. Short of the Chaos cloak charge spammer most recons never stay visible when confronted with an enemy. As soon as recon cloaks you camera shift to another player (usually a striker or a dying guardian). Without the opportunity to see how a good recon moves to counter striker or guardian they learn nothing other than the fact that haze bombing recons get Polaris spammed, sword/gun recons get found out by FF/BTB, Argent peacemaker/sentenza fire and then get GF comboed.

Fri, 06/13/2014 - 16:34

Reto-Da-Liz

I like watching myself play guardian.
I look sexy.

Fri, 06/13/2014 - 18:35

Good-Spirit

Striker were way overpowered comparatively even before the spectator mode was an option if that's what you're getting at.

The other two classes have to think a bit more as to where they're going to go from point to point rather then just flinging themselves around and doing the most damage. Striker has the easiest learning curve. Go hit things.

As recon you'd want to pick a point to uncap to split up the enemy, distract with the deathmark, use your cloaked body to block off an entry way and punish those that come through. Be smart.

As a guardian, teammates are your friends. Flock towards the crowd. If you're going to pioneer to a far away point, better have a haze bomb ready to keep people at bay long enough for your teammates to arrive, and it's a very difficult struggle doing that with the amount of hybrids there are... not to mention haze walk.

Just like anything else, they take work to be good at. The striker swordie (or hybrid) usually takes the least amount of work to produce the greatest numerical results on the end board. The other two classes you really have to invest time in to get good at. I believe the biggest folly when you're trying another class out is that one gets caught up in the Striker mentality - go hit things. I'm guilty of it myself :).

Good examples (players good at their craft)

Tenkii (recon)
Rohn (recon) - i think i spelled that right?
Sprunket (recon)
Sooch (recon)
Vicpasta (recon)

Reto-Da-Liz (guard)
Very-Cherry (guard)
Starbucks (guard)
Dutch-Mclovin (guard)
CrustyCrab (guard)

Fri, 06/13/2014 - 19:26

Clown-Nine

Blueflood is also a pretty

Blueflood is also a pretty good recon iirc ;)

Sat, 06/14/2014 - 09:19

Meep-The-Bank

Meep.

''Monkey see, monkey do.....'' Yes.
I see many new players go into Lockdown and follow a somewhat 'pathetic' meta where they simply get a heavy sword such as DA or GF and simply combo in order to get kills. I would teach them that killing and damage isn't what Lockdown is all about but don't got time for that.

Sat, 06/14/2014 - 09:35

Holy-Nightmare

@ Blueflood

My point isn't that the other two classes aren't good, its that new players have few good examples to follow.

There are a few good guardians or recons. Without good role models they immediately head towards what they see everyone else using. (and since they never "see" recons they must learn everything by experience)

I guarantee you that if you go watch a LD match right now you will see teams composed mainly of strikers. If there are guardians their team strikers will leave them in the dust. If there are recons they will be constantly fading in and out of view, "you are watching (No one)".

The current LD mentality of "Look at my high damage" means that teamwork (short of striker gangbang) is nearly nonexistent. You don't see a pair of strikers sticking with a guardian while the team recon drops hazes under the shield, you see teams of strikers fighting other teams of strikers.

Sat, 06/14/2014 - 12:23

Seiran

recon lurve

It really is monkey-see-monkey-do. In the earlier days when I first discovered Recon's mostly-defunct instakill attack, I had people changing to recon to try to get me back, haha. It was really cute.

-----
I tried to make this exact point in some thread I'd rather not bump. I had absolutely no role models in Lockdown and was hellbent on making recon strike fear and hate into enemies. Through a lot of losses and experimentation, I went from sword-based hybrid to gomber/pure-gunner recon as my idea of most effective use of the class.

And it's really too bad that not a lot of people have really experimented with recon, because dumb complaints like this and about autotarget are largely... irrelevant for recon.

-----
As far as damage goes, I see that more as an indication of:
- How many enemies you run into
- How well you can survive and kill them WHEN you run into them.

Strikers GENERALLY outdamage recons/guardians by pure virtue of the first one, since they spend less time running around and hit enemies before their recon/guardian teammates can.

Sat, 06/14/2014 - 13:02

Good-Spirit

Excellent point there Seiran. Keep your same name now plz!

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:52

Pery-Alaois

Guardians are way too

Guardians are way too neglected. The only reason most players use the striker class is so they can get more damage. Maybe they should have an arena made just for fighting. Players would flock over there.

The guardian defends the players that are defending the capture point, but they don't have good buffs. Strikers have the fancy DAMAGE bonuses and ATTACK speed increases, past medium. Recons have the charge time reductions and attack speed increases past medium, as well. But the guardians only have low charge time reduction and attack speed increase. Guardians and recons have bomb buffs and strikers, bomb debuffs, but most players don't use bombs.

What guardians need are increased universal defenses, so they can feel more tank, and get killed with less hits. The classes are unbalanced because all of the classes take the same amount of damage.
They also need shield bashes to stun and cripple opponents.

-Pery

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:38

Theirillusion

I like trains...

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:41

#10

Bleyken-Forums

Aids

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 12:27

#11

Im-Not-Pony

Eutanasia

Fri, 07/04/2014 - 10:57

#12

Klipik-Forum

I played guardian for about a year, and came to the conclusion that either a) I am fundamentally unable of being an effective guardian or b) the class is less effective than striker. I'm more inclined towards b).

Fri, 07/04/2014 - 11:37

#13

Bleyken

Fri, 07/04/2014 - 11:48

#14

Krakob

Definitely a. The best guardians kick 99% of all strikers' butts. Speaking of Reto and Dutch, ofc.

Fri, 07/04/2014 - 15:32

#15

Theirillusion

a), guardians CAN be good.

Fri, 07/04/2014 - 15:41

#16

Klipik-Forum

Oh I forgot to mention, guarding without bombs.

Fri, 07/04/2014 - 16:13

#17

Krakob

Still doable. The thing is, with bombs being the primary sword counter, you're a fool to not bring one as a Guardian since your class not only permits it (unlike Strikers w/o top tier 50k E p2w UVs) but even enhances it slightly. Both Dutch and Reto can do just fine without bombs but they can also use them and do even better as bombs give a sick control advantage.

Fri, 07/04/2014 - 17:19

#18

Reto-Da-Liz

Krakky you make me blush.
Playing guardian (with swords) is very doable.
I only carry a bomb in GvG or in tough RLD games.

Fri, 07/04/2014 - 21:09

#19

Retequizzle

playing as a guardian with a striker mentality is what gets a lot of guardians killed. what a lot of people fail to realize is that guardians have the ability to control the pace of a fight better than any other class in a variety of situations, especially in fights where no one is coordinated in what they plan to do; with that said, one of the worst things you can do is swarm a guardian who has a full shield, yet that's one of the first things most strikers will choose to do.

a good guardian will do what they can to goad that to happen as well, which is why you see guardians like very-cherry (now very-strawberry, which breaks my heart because cherries are better) and crustycrab essentially dominate when they're on a point. that, combined with the fact that they're more than familiar with shield cancels to where they can essentially parry a striker to death, just adds more bite to everything overall. another thing that lends versatility to a guardian is the fact that the class mod provides so little drawback. you get a shield, which everyone's familiar with from playing pve (i hope), and the mod itself grants +2 status resistance across the board, which helps immensely with how many people will try to use polaris/storm driver to get rid of invincibility frames. in fact, the only penalty that i know if is you lose the mobility that striker gives, and you lose just one level of asi on guns. clearly, that's not an issue considering dutch is the most potent gunner i've seen, regardless of server.

simply put, guardian's a very underrated class considering its staying power when playing objective. but the mentality that LD lends to players is that big numbers mean you'll win regardless of whether you cap or not, which is only true if you have someone who disregards that mentality and plays to cap, not kill. there's a lot of subtle nuances to recon as well, but i'm not as well-versed in that, so seiran kind of already hit that well enough.

Sat, 07/05/2014 - 03:29

#20

Krakob

Some thoughts on wreconing.

Recon is more about being smart than being quick. You have a moderately low movement speed combined with no way of defending yourself like strikers (dodging) and guardians (blocking) have. Therefore, you can't really lead the battle with offence. You can, however, be a matador and lead your enemy striker like a bull. The key to being a good recon isn't sending out many attacks, it's about making the attacks you do execute count. This is easy to do if the enemy lets themselves be punished, but you can also do stuff like attack someone before you've even marked them, as a Recon can sneak up on anyone from any angle, usually. That's an advantage Strikers don't have. Strikers can only ambush people if they're south of their opponent.

Another thing that benefits Recon greatly is the lengthy cloak. While Strikers can traverse the entire map faster, Recons can do so without being seen and that's tremendously useful. Guardians don't have the ability to go cross map without being engaged, which makes the class further emphasise on defence instead of offence, I'd say.

Lastly, two things.
1. Recon isn't a sword class. Swords are by all means viable to use as Recon since the debuff is very small but if you want to shine, you should definitely bring both a gun and a bomb.
2. Striker is not a co-op class. Recon and guardian are. Guardians can heal and enhance their teammates. Recons can mark their opponents with the death mark, and marks are the most useful when you have a striker making use of it while you're also setting it up, as placing a death mark takes a few seconds. Lastly, both guardians and recons can use bombs properly. Strikers need super UVs for that. Area denial is the key to keeping a point for a very long while, and giving your teammates cover during the battle.

Recon requires a different style, just like Guardian. If you don't understand your class, you can't use it effectively and by the gods if you're gonna be a guardian or recon please learn how to help your teammates and help your teammates help you.

Sat, 07/05/2014 - 06:26

#21

Oroseira

Now that I think about it, I suck at Striker.

Maybe I should be a guardian or recon. Considering bombs and guns are some of my..."better" points, I should focus on getting more guns and bombs, rather than swords, and learning how to use Recon efficiently.

Considering the fact you can easily assassinate any threats to capping incredibly easily if the point is shoddily protected, that means Recons could be deadlier than strikers. Unfortunately, UVs exist, and that pretty much means VT isn't as effective as it should be.

Sun, 07/06/2014 - 17:28

#22

Seiran

More recon stuff

Recon isn't a sword class. Swords are by all means viable to use as Recon since the debuff is very small but if you want to shine, you should definitely bring both a gun and a bomb.

Quoting again for emphasis.

I do think that swords are a great situational sidearm for recon. Most swords have split normal damage (further hurt by most armors having split normal defense), so in a sense, they benefit a lot more from deathmark than guns that already hit through a specific defense type. I also do recommend that people try playing sword-based recon for practice though. It does wonders for your footwork.

Striker is not a co-op class. Recon and guardian are.

More to add here for the recon side - tips and ways to help out (or rather, use) your visible teammates:
- You don't have to take over a fight in order to help your teammates - sneaking in a single heavy sword hit or landing a few hits with guns before disengaging can be equivalent to nullifying your opponent's health trinkets.

- Mindset: use the visible: People aim for what they can see, so you can use your teammates as bait for your own attacks.
ex: if your teammate is a guardian shielding on a point, you know that most swords are 1.5 tiles distance at most. So if you aim 2-3 tiles away from the guardian, you can position yourself can be completely safe from an opponent slash and set yourself up to hit your opponent when they try to hit your teammate. In most cases, you will either pre-empt and cancel your opponent's attack or become your teammate's counter attack.

- Status. Recon's given ASI bonus but not damage, so I infer that part of the intent is to be able to shoot more to sneak statuses on your enemy. If you're with your teammates, stick with shock. If you're alone or outnumbered, prefer freeze.

Tue, 07/15/2014 - 08:13

#23

Oroseira

I'm not sure what your post is targeted at

But hey, that's a good idea. Unfortunately, Skolver and Snarbolax exist, making Shivermist rather hard to use well. All I need to be an efficient beginner recon would be some good trinkets for that class, Skolver and a Voltaic Tempest. If I was going to go recon, I'd sneak up on enemies from behind and assassinate them (if possible) if the cap isn't very well protected, and then start dropping bombs. If I see Polaris? (bonus points if anyone knows where that came from)

Regardless, the actual question I wanted to ask is this:
What trinkets, guns and swords would be good for recon?

Tue, 07/15/2014 - 09:02

#24

Seiran

For trinkets, I'd base it off of whichever weapon type you consider your primary weapon, but generally, I go with ASI trinkets, since they make it so you spend less time out in the open and get you moving again, but if you're more of a self-sacrificial or campy player, go with damage to make your hits count.

Though, another reasoning I follow/use is this: if you're playing with status, go with ASI; if you're not playing with status, go with damage. More attempts, more chances.

If you're recon, your defense doesn't matter as much (if you're tricky, you don't get hit; if you're compromised, you're dead), so your offensive bonuses (armor included) will matter more for your efficiency.

Primary swords:
- DA/GF : heavy damage, nice for sweeping or contributing high damage to large groups on points (nice with dmg bonus)
- Brandish isn't bad for quick slips and charges (nice with ASI or damage)
- Toothpicks are especially mobile (nice with ASI). Status toothpicks are really nice. I prefer Rigadoon because stun makes it so you can catch up to your targets.

Secondary swords:
- Rigadoon/Flamberge : status on normal hits
- FOV: Status on normal hits, charge fun.

Primary guns:
- Nova/Umbra driver: heavy damage, for guns.
- Valiance : Fast, mobile, and has nice range (great for catching a striker trying to run away, also hurts hard with deathmark).

Secondary guns:
- Storm driver : shock helps your teammates
- Hail driver : Get out of out-numbered situations, can 'freeze' someone as you die, meaning they're incapacitated while you respawn.
- Biohazard/Polaris: slow bullets can act as a distraction, use your imagination.
- Callahan: Charges are especially fun with recon bonus, and stun is great for surprise hits.

Also, assassination tip: don't always assume that "behind" them is the best place to attack from. It's a top-down game, so where the character is facing doesn't necessarily mean where the player's eyes are looking.

Tue, 07/15/2014 - 09:03

#25

Oroseira

Well then.

What would be a good angle to ambush them at?

Tue, 07/15/2014 - 10:55

#26

Holy-Nightmare

derp

Tue, 07/15/2014 - 09:14

#27

Holy-Nightmare

@ Moonstone

If you were striker where would you be looking for strikers (the most common enemy) to come?

A: Their base
B: The common path
C: Not the back paths you use to run back to base and heal

Don't be where you are expected to be.

Tue, 07/15/2014 - 09:29

#28

Seiran

What would be a good angle to ambush them at?
Depends on their expectations:

Bottom makes sense for off-screen ambushes, but it happens so often that people are ready to look down when they get hit, so one level above that would be to start attacking from the top. Of course, people remember where they've been attacked from and will start getting more wary, so you'll just have to keep varying it after your first few tries (depending on whether or not it looks like they learn their lesson).

Honestly, Holy-Nightmare kind of touched on it, but the best ambushes are more about where the enemies are/what they're doing when they get hit.

People are more on-edge when they're on the points (you'll often see people shooting downwards while capping on the points), but when they're almost there, or somewhere in between, you can really frustrate them.

For example, a lot of strikers will use up their boost straight out of base. Pick striker and try it out, and the distance where you start to run out of boost is a perfect place to cloak and camp.

If you're near a turn and have a heavy sword, try 'bouncing' them into a wall with your first hit - it can totally screw up their movement plans.

If you're near a point, you can just try to bounce them away from the point, then visibly show yourself moving away from it and see if they chase "you" away from it.

Tue, 07/15/2014 - 12:53

#29

Holy-Nightmare

Art of War

Read some of these to learn some good tactics. http://www.quoteswise.com/sun-tzu-quotes.html

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 02:01

#30

Krissychu

I, Krissychu, enjoy being a

I, Krissychu, enjoy being a guardian. Providing support during GvG and capping like a mad-woman is my specialty. Strikers might ambush me and from time to time I'll get shot to death, but guardian is still one heck of a class to play :3

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 11:18

#31

Fangel

Guardian and Recon are great with teamwork

Recons are great fighters when there is a chaotic firefight. 3 strikers from each team are zipping around everywhere? Cloak into the middle and aid your teammates with a deathmark, then fall back and try to pick off those trying to escape, or escort a teammate to a safe location.
Even with just one other teammate, a recon can become a deadly force. Players will fight what they can see, and when there are two enemies, they won't care about where the invisible enemy is if there is a visible enemy flying at them, at least until it is too late. This tactic is negated almost entirely when both players are recons, as when there are two invisible enemies floating around, the enemy will zip around all panicky and probably find at least one of you. Pairing a recon with a striker or guardian works wonders.

Guardians work the best in team fights. The bigger the fight the better it is to have a bunch of strikers, but the smaller the fight it is actually better to be protecting a recon. As I stated before, the enemy will focus on what they can see, and you look like a big sitting duck to the enemy, so they will naturally attack you. Which is great, because you have quite a bit of health to be hit with, and your recon will be aiding you while taking less hits while you counter-attack. Especially if your enemy is using guns, recons will take up your gun weakness.
Also as a guardian, it isn't a bad idea to mesh offense with defense. Have at least one offensive piece of gear, and if you can have a defensive matched with defense value on top of that. This works especially with bits that can neutralize your status weaknesses. Even though offense is severely overpowered in Spiral Knights, a guardian isn't necessarily about dealing the most damage as fast as possible. It's about being alive and helping teammates.
From experience, I play a better guardian wearing a mix of valkyrie and snarbolax than I do in full offensive gear (Which includes a BKC, mind you) because I am prioritizing my own life over making the enemy team fall. Dealing less damage actually makes you think twice about landing your hits, and forces you to play defensively, which in turn bides well with the playstyle. A striker needs to hit hard, a recon needs to hit fast, and a guardian needs to get hit and counter. It's actually important to get hit as a guardian, but you need to be able to choose when those hits actually benefit you.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 21:36

#32

Terrifying-Pancake

Recon? Guardian? Pshhh, 2hrd.

Recon? Guardian? Pshhh, 2hrd. Striker4lyfe

But seriously, keep pushing the recon and guard classes, it would be really neat to see more of those. Lots of noobs go recon and cap a lot ive noticed, which is quite neat.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 22:16

#33

Meep-The-Bank

Meep.

Lots of noobs go recon and cap a lot ive noticed, which is quite neat

Yes. To be honest, I would say that it's because of people showing these 'noobs' how to play the game / guide them through the game. Hopefully one day, if we could actually tutor new people all about Lockdown and it's many factors that can change the game around, then the Lockdown community would be going one step in the right direction. Less people combo spamming as they learn it can make them vulnerable, less people go striker as they survive only 2-4 hits on average or learning that to win they need to concentrate more on cap > damage as caps can change the result of a game. I've had a couple of experiences where I was able to carry myself and my team with a tremendous comeback by simply capping all points and defending.

Mon, 07/21/2014 - 13:04

#34

Seiran

they're cute

A few days ago, I had this default gear recon teammate shooting pulsar out of base. I told him his bullets weren't doing anything because
1) enemies were off screen below him and could see what he was doing
2) his bullets are slow and he wasn't lead shooting at all

I told him to follow me, and we double-recon'd past the spawn campers in a lesser-used passage and made it to the opposite team's zone undetected.

It was really cute lol. Just to drive the point, I told him "this is what recon can do", since we managed to get out of a spawn-camp situation and get both our team and their team away from our base. At some point, we had their strikers leave our base and try to attack us, but
1) aside from capping, I also know how to fight to defend my caps
2) backup came from our side

...so we eventually won the point near their base. He actually cloaked and hid in the corner (stayed alive until the end of the fight!) so I hope he was able to see some of that overall action.

In the end, we lost the match (partly because this all happened so late in the game and also because our team was outmatched since they could take out our strikers and outnumber the cappers), but I hope that at least contributed to development overall.

Mon, 07/21/2014 - 12:40

#35

Meep-The-Bank

Meep.

@Seiran Such a good story OwO
If only things like this happened on a regular basis.

Mon, 07/21/2014 - 14:45

#36

Sprunket

Recons for noobs!

Thanks for the shout out Blue, even though I don't think I desrve to be listed.

I was known for playing BN, I'm also pretty good at it and its why I am in the Machinists guild, but 7 months ago I decided to venture into the realm of LD. I went from being a big fish in a small pool to a VERY small fish in a VERY big pool lol.

I was totally (and probably still am) a complete noob who honestly had no idea what he was supposed to be doing. But luckily there were a few that gave me the odd tip now and again and for that I am gratefull. I dabbled as a Guardian and Striker and got ok at them but its the Recon class I like the most. . . .its all about tactics and misdirection so whats not to like!

I think its harder to learn Recon because its the only class you can't really spectate. That being said, in the spirit of helping out. . . Here's 3 things I learned about Recon:-

Know the class: A Recon's main weakness is its speed and menouverabiity so having a gun that interupts attacks and annoys guards from a distance while letting you keep moving is key.

Know when to strike: Take your time when approaching a cap and watch what people are doing. Let the strikers rush around and wave thier swords. Ours is the wet work from the shadows :-) For example a striker has stopped moving on a cap. He/she may be capping that point . . . or they may have a painful blister from running around like a headless chicken. . .always assume the latter and go help put him/her out of thier misery. If they are still running about waving a sword, wait for the right time, and do it then.

Know your tactics: Don't just rely on the fact you can't be seen. Pulse your cloak to give them a glimse of the "noob", misdirect them with your footsteps, stand still and strike when they pass. A fun one that works now and again is dropping cloak and dashing at them with a combo XD. Most importantly though for a Recon, is to learn common patterns that players do, learn to read and counter movements. Once you can do that your halfway there.

In conclusion, Recon has a hard learning curve, hell I'm still trying to get the hang of it, but trust me when you get even semi decent, a shadowy world of pain, terror and torment will open before your eyes . . . . . theirs not yours >:-)

~Sprunket

Mon, 07/21/2014 - 15:18

#37

Seiran

yay for recon!

When I started everyone told me to stay away from swords and focus on bombs and guns as a recon but I had the idea of Heavy Recon Hybrid in my head and I was going to see if it works. I think it does . . . but the jury is still out.
...
Know the class: A Recon's main weakness is its speed and menouverabiity so having a gun that interupts attacks and annoys guards from a distance while letting you keep moving is key.

Hehe. I actually also started out as a heavy recon hybrid (actually, before LD, I was purely heavy swords. #2 suda fan, only losing to Tsubasa-no-me). My PVE loadout at the time was Fallen Set + damage trinkets (sword or gun), and I wasn't sure which one was a better way to go for Recon. Before I was even aware of the fact that people alternated guns, I believed that a status gun was the best pair for a recon swordsman, but I didn't really have any experience with guns (heck, what's the point of having a sidearm if you can't aim it >_<) so I did a bit of experimenting, self-taught a better switch technique than alternating guns, and now I'm the best *sunglasses*

Skipped a few steps, but yes, I came to the same conclusion too: Recon's weakness is speed and maneuverability so having range (and more importantly, status), can completely change your footwork and assassination effectiveness. I did alternate a lot between sword-based and gun-based playstyles, but after following rewards (following the styles that did better overall), I found that gun-based recon was often more effective for me than even the hybrid-based recon that I was playing, so I did the full switch over.

I do still want to eventually go back to it (it hurts me a little bit when people recognize me as a gunner and not a recon lol). While statusing and erasing an opponent with no chance to fight back in 1 second is great and all, it's just so satisfying to be able to wipe 3+ people off a point with minimal effort if they stand next to each other.

I will say though, having glimpsed down the different paths:
- Gun-based recon is defensive - focus on learning enemy approaches and patterns to prevent direct damage and cause statuses. You focus on aim and prediction to prevent melee from touching you.
- Sword-based recon is offensive - focus on learning enemy reactions and patterns to catch them when (and from where) they don't expect it, over and over again. You focus on prediction and footwork to prevent melee from touching you.. by virtue of killing them before they figure out where you are.

So in that sense, I'm actually quite jealous of your footwork :)
Hope your sword-based recon goes well for ya.

Mon, 07/21/2014 - 17:43

#38

Holy-Nightmare

Recon is totally balanced in

Recon is totally balanced in the fact that an untrinketed recon can just walk up to and untrinketed (unwary) striker and pretty much KO them with a DA combo, thanks to trinkets and lack of HP scaling the trinketed striker can tank more hits that it was designed to, and run back to base to heal. Recons and guardians can't zip back and their HP boost allows them to take just a few points more damage than the striker counterpart.

Back before trinkets few strikers would dare to go toe to toe with a Guardian (without backup at least), now there are so many HP tank strikers that any guardian on the field will get flinchlocked as they try to counter attack, and with all these damage/asi boosting armors their shield breaks extremely easy.

New Strikers will often get their butts handed to them even after watching LD for a long time, since they don't have any trinkets they immediately become targets for everyone else and often drop/ragequit LD because they think everyone is out to get them (and with the typical damage farming mentality that is actually what happens) and they never return to LD.

Tue, 07/22/2014 - 02:30

#39

Oroseira

Well.

"New Strikers will often get their butts handed to them even after watching LD for a long time, since they don't have any trinkets they immediately become targets for everyone else and often drop/ragequit LD because they think everyone is out to get them (and with the typical damage farming mentality that is actually what happens) and they never return to LD."

This is completely true.

But how in the bloody world are you supposed to counter recons like Mounthagane?

Tue, 07/22/2014 - 04:46

#40

Krakob

New Strikers will often get their butts handed to them even after watching LD for a long time, since they don't have any trinkets
So it is. Striker probably has the highest requirement in terms of entry level. It's something you simply can't do without the right gear and a bit of skill. Guardians and Recons are easier to play as a beginner because you don't get killed in two hits by everyone else and you can focus on supporting your teammates.

On the other hand, I'd say Striker is the easiest class to master. It's simply that overpowered once you have good gear. Being an equally good Guardian or Recon takes A LOT of skill and understanding. More than it takes to be a Striker, if you ask me. If anything, it's probably because you're disadvantaged against Strikers, not because it is actually harder to play the other two classes.

Tue, 07/22/2014 - 08:12

#41

Seiran

Holy-Nightmare:
Back before trinkets few strikers would dare to go toe to toe with a Guardian (without backup at least), now there are so many HP tank strikers that any guardian on the field will get flinchlocked as they try to counter attack, and with all these damage/asi boosting armors their shield breaks extremely easy.

Two things:
- The extra HP doesn't do anything for strikers except let them take an ambush hit or counter attack. Their attack speed is still the same as without them.
- If guardian's weakness is that it can't attack fast or hard enough to counter attack, shouldn't it then use trinkets that let it attack faster/harder?

One of the notorious guardians in the past, Badworm, didn't just hide in shield - his defense aside from that was his fast toothpick and footwork baiting. I remember as a new hybrid recon trying to fight him and what I came up with was to slow him down via stun bomb lol. IIRC he had some ASI on his swords, but definitely not max overall. It's not just about being a turtle, it's being a spiky turtle.

Even with ultra sword ASI (VH from trinkets + low from guardian), I cannot do it as well as he did because I don't have the timing for melee attacks down anymore.

Moonstone-Shades:
But how in the bloody world are you supposed to counter recons like Mounthagane?

I'm unfamiliar with Mounthagane, but the age-old strategy of spamming Antigua line to find recons doesn't hurt. Also bomber footwork with Nitronome can dissuade melee recons.

Krakob:
On the other hand, I'd say Striker is the easiest class to master. It's simply that overpowered once you have good gear. Being an equally good Guardian or Recon takes A LOT of skill and understanding.

I actually don't think Striker is inherently better, but it does have advantages in Lockdown because the game is online and because of the way that server latency is handled.

Part of the reason why I put so little importance on AT is because more important than facing the right direction is timing your attacks. If people have say, a quarter of a second of latency on TOP of their own reaction time, it puts the offensive player at an advantage and the defensive player at a disadvantage (for example: you can "chain" two shield-cancelled attacks together with perfect timing and not worry about a counter attack right away all the time). So in the game of playing with reaction and lag, Guardian has it the worst since it is (by nature) the most defensive class - people see you approach, and you have to predict-time your counters. Recon at least has the option of cloak to do sneak attacks and force people into its guessing game.

The fun part about using recon/guard is that by their nature of being slow classes, AT doesn't matter. If you can't time or predict right, you'll get hit anyway, so you do your best to prevent them from hitting you first.

Tue, 07/22/2014 - 10:34

#42

Krakob

I actually don't think Striker is inherently better, but it does have advantages in Lockdown because the game is online and because of the way that server latency is handled.

I'd say that's a bit of a contradiction. We're not talking hypothetically. Practically, the connection latency does exist, and it's something you have to take into account when playing the game.

I do agree with the rest of your post. Recon and Guardian requires timing in addition to being able to observe where your opponent is going to try to go, as well as having good footwork to make the very small differences between getting hit and not getting hit. As a Striker those things exist too but your super fast boost and inherently higher sword attack speed will make those things a lot easier.

Tue, 07/22/2014 - 17:14

#43

Oroseira

Clarification.

"I'm unfamiliar with Mounthagane, but the age-old strategy of spamming Antigua line to find recons doesn't hurt. Also bomber footwork with Nitronome can dissuade melee recons."
I mean those who are literally impossible to predict.

Wed, 07/23/2014 - 12:14

#44

Seiran

I mean those who are literally impossible to predict.

Well, that's the gap of player skill then ;P
Just need to get better at your own prediction (or even turn it around and try to do something to get them to follow you, with you baiting them instead).
---

Like I said, you can:
- try to spray some Antigua line (or other gun) in some direction to try to ping their location.
- Use nitronome and footwork to protect yourself from any possible advances (it can be very difficult for a MSI-decreased cloaked recon to chase a bomber inside nitronome

But then I remembered:
- Mist bombs hurt recon cloak, even if you're immune. So ANY mist bomb can be used to cover an area and hurt his cloak. Just be careful not to step too close to the edges of your mist.
- Fire status can be very pesky for recon since it also damages shield, so Magma Driver might be a thing here too. But honestly, if you manage to land -any- status on a recon, it can screw up their sneaking game a lot.

You can also kind of watch for footsteps, but experienced recons can use footsteps to trick you back.

Wed, 07/30/2014 - 15:51

#45

Fangel

Alternatively play recon

The best way to counter a good recon is to know how a good recon thinks. No matter how much people tell you how a recon thinks, you will not think like one until you play as one for a while. At times when playing recon is not beneficial to my team, and the other team has a skilled recon on it, I'll often seek them out unintentionally because I know how a recon will think.

Recons play mindgames, and until you learn how to play their game you will have a harder time versus them.

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