When ever somebody accuse somebody of using AT, they will give the "AT screw my aim up" excuse...I mean How can AT screw you up ? If you have 1 bar, well yea, sure, AT will totally screw you up...But with 4 bars ? You're joking, right ?
LDers these days...
Sun, 06/22/2014 - 05:31
Sun, 06/22/2014 - 06:12
#2
Salt tastes gr8
I don't see why anybody would need to "accuse" somebody of this.
Sun, 06/22/2014 - 08:08
#3
How can Auto Target mess you up? I'm glad you asked.
Sun, 06/22/2014 - 12:43
#4
AT doesn't mess anything up other than multi targets. In other words, they want to make it seem like all their aiming is better than perfect cheat "aim". But that only goes for rare cases. And AT noobs can use toggle if they face multiple targets.
Sun, 06/22/2014 - 12:53
#5
!?
Try using AT with guns to hit someone who's strafing, especially with Magnus line (one of the only guns that FORCE you to stop moving / WILL "lock on" with AT.
HAVE FUN MISSING
Sun, 06/22/2014 - 13:33
#6
I don't mean gunning of course. -.-
Wed, 06/25/2014 - 03:29
#7
What's wrong with AT?
As far as I know, the only thing wrong with AT is that it gives people a convenient excuse for their own death.
You say AT gives people an advantage. Why don't YOU use it then? Because then you can't blame your death on something besides yourself? Because you can't accept that you've died to someone better than you? Because your fragile ego will fall and shatter into pieces?
Accuse me of being an AT scrub/noob/whatever you want, I don't care. Get over yourselves, if you need to blame your death on something like AT, chances are, you're probably not very good or you're just so full of yourself that you just can't accept your own death.
Seriously, lockdown'ers these days.
End of rant.
Wed, 06/25/2014 - 03:50
#8
If I blame my death on the killers use of AT it's because I'd make it if that wasn't the case.
If you use AT you can't be better than someone that aims, all your good aiming will result in the same way as your terrible aiming.
Get some air, Pithless.
Wed, 06/25/2014 - 03:54
#9
^
That ego. "I'd make it if that wasn't the case." Of course you would have.
Wed, 06/25/2014 - 04:39
#10
Clearly you don't me or how rarely I blame AT for my deaths.
Edit: yes of course i meant "Clearly you don't know me..."
Wed, 06/25/2014 - 04:27
#11
I don't even know what that
I don't even know what that means
"Clearly you don't me or how rarely I blame AT for my deaths"
I'll just interpret it as "clearly you don't know me or how rarely I blame AT for my deaths"
That first part is pretty true, I really don't care who you are if you're a player like that, putting people down, calling people noobs. Second part, You're implying you still blame AT for deaths, even if it's not that often; proving my point that people use AT as a convenient excuse for their death.
Wed, 06/25/2014 - 04:33
#12
@Pithless
AT nub
Wed, 06/25/2014 - 06:37
#13
I only AT with my bombs...
I only AT with my bombs...
Wed, 06/25/2014 - 10:43
#14
Can I go on a rant too? I'll start off simple...
"If you use AT you can't be better than someone that aims, all your good aiming will result in the same way as your terrible aiming."
Last I checked, Lockdown was a mini-game that was meant for fun. Why do you have to be so damn competitive, is it honestly fun to be so competitive, and some people going so far as to burn real life money into the game just to do it? Get over yourselves guys, you're ruining the experience for other people because you want to be tryhards who tell them what they can and can't do.
There are people out there who use AT for the sole fact that it pisses others off, not because it makes them "better". The Lockdown community is so harsh and negative it hurts to even read what some people have to say here, at the very least there are people here who try to lighten the mood (and I thank you for that).
UV's I can understand, even trinkets I can understand. But AT? Seriously? I don't want to just be an echo of Pithless here, but, "Why don't YOU use it then? [...] Because your fragile ego will fall and shatter into pieces?"
Are you guys really so far into the mindset of P2W that you can't accept an advantage that's available to all players instead of just the richer ones? Are you really so full of yourselves that you can't even give the newbies a small chance?
It's a shame that you guys are honestly like this; the rest of Spiral Knights actually has a fairly decent community excluding all the "I want [x] back!" complaints. What's worse, a pretty solid amount of you will hate on other things and yet turn around and use them yourself (first example I can think of is Polaris). The hypocrisy in the sub-forum is almost as bad as the negativity here, but I think that should be saved for another day...
-----
And Hellscream, I know this question is stupid to ask but...
"I mean How can AT screw you up ?"
Have you never used a Brandish charge? Or maybe guns of any sort?
Wed, 06/25/2014 - 10:46
#15
To be fair, auto target is one of the the most fair aspect of Lockdown, since everyone has access to it. Not everyone has access to "ZOMG SHOCK MAX FREEZE MAX STUN MAX" stuff, or an incredible 4 bar connection, or blah blah this or blah blah that or Pinocchio's fake ribcage.
Wed, 06/25/2014 - 11:45
#16
Sandwich, that logic has been tried before. Unfortunately it never sinks in.
Apparently telling them to use AT is ruining their fun, but telling other people to stop using AT is perfectly reasonable and not ruining anybody's fun.
Wed, 06/25/2014 - 14:46
#17
Semantics / why people hate AT
Ignoring the fact that the game is team-based and the real goal is to allow your team to control the map points for as long as possible, I'll try to explain this point.
@Why people complain about AT:
> To be fair, auto target is one of the the most fair aspect of Lockdown, since everyone has access to it.
> Sandwich, that logic has been tried before. Unfortunately it never sinks in.
It really comes down to this concept:
Skill-based competition
"Skill" is the combination of:
- Physical ability (technical ability: aiming, animation-cancelling, movement)
- Mental ability (prediction, counter-reading, decision-making, calmness, understanding mechanics)
The idea is that a person who plays better (..."more skilled") will win.
People will argue that Trinkets and UVs take away from this idea of skill-based competition.
- (Health) Trinkets don't matter too much here because they just mean that someone will last longer. Entertain the straw-man idea for a moment: Imagine you're constantly outplaying someone at table tennis, and you give your opponent a 4 point handicap (ex: you need to score 4 points more to win), will your opponent have much of an edge on you? No.
- UVs and offensive trinkets are a bit of a game-changer because they affect your skill-based options: Someone with more ASI has better movement and followup options than someone with less ASI. Someone with status resistance can avoid debilitating statuses (closing offensive options and strategies). But in the end, those are tradeoffs that you yourself can counterpick against, much like how different characters in fighting games have different stats and weaknesses. Arguably, if you have nice UV's (ex: VH ASI UVs), you can then focus your gear to boost your defensive options for stat optimization.
Both trinkets and UVs augment your potential (health trinkets as a minor boost, and offensive trinkets/UVs as the 'game changers'), but in the end, you, the human player, are still responsible for your own win/loss in an organized fight:
There have been multiple examples of people who have gambled fortunes on getting a great UV on an "OP weapon" just to realize they'll still lose just the same because...
1) The weapon wasn't "OP".
2) They realized that skill was, in fact, more of a factor in winning than gear.
With AT, you directly attack the ideal of "skill-based" combat by lessening the work needed to perform one of the physical aspects of skill in this game (directional aim) with what is essentially "aim assist".
It doesn't matter that everyone can use it.
It's not about fair or unfair.
It's an issue of ideals and, at times, ego (ex: OH NO HE HIT ME 3 TIMES IN A ROW, IT CAN'T BE MY FAULT, AT USER!!!!), and that's why people argue so religiously about it.
-----
Edit: Not that I particularly subscribe to a big anti-AT stance, but y'know, just to help understand both sides of the argument, even if it's just one version of it.
Wed, 06/25/2014 - 14:57
#18
AT can screw you up a lot of ways.
Wed, 06/25/2014 - 19:44
#19
@ Players who doesn't know the topic ._.
This is about players not being honest for using AT !? Not Screaming at players for killing them...Jeez
Wed, 06/25/2014 - 20:19
#20
@Hellscream
I think the
@Hellscream
I think the players who want to hide their AT tend to be the same players who like accusing others of AT. For them, it is somehow shameful to be using AT. It's all a big ego/reputation fest.
=====================================================================================
I totally agree with Seiran's summary.
However, let us consider the likelihood that the typical AT complainer is driven by "ideals" rather than "ego":
We first assume they are driven by the idea that Lockdown should be skill-based. We expect them to advocate for a more skill-based Lockdown in aspects other than AT.
Let's see...
Swinging your sword faster, having more health, having more stable internet connection, having better status resist, etc. all contribute to making Lockdown less skill-based. The actual mechanics of Lockdown, itself, make skill-based combat hard to come by.
If you were to survey everybody that complains about AT, you will find they are hypocritical and/or apathetic about many of these elements. This makes you wonder, how probable is it that their complaints are driven by "ideals"? How can these people be so passionate about an ideal yet so careless about it in their own gameplay?
Now let's assume they are driven by ego. We expect them to complain about AT when their ego is hurt.
Let see...
Many people complain about AT immediately after being killed. People rarely (if ever) complain about noobs (real noobs that pose no threat) for using AT. People rarely (if ever) complain about teammates that use AT. People often accompany AT "accusations" with a personal insult.
When you bring up UVs/trinkets to people against AT, they cite their "hard work" that paid for the crowns/energy to get their better equipment. They believe their effort outside of PvP justifies artificially augmenting their skill within PvP.
Wed, 06/25/2014 - 22:57
#21
:|
This is about players not being honest for using AT !? Not Screaming at players for killing them...Jeez
Your topic was already answered multiple times in this thread.
Guns, charges, heavy weapons (hammer included) - they all suffer when AT is involved.
---------
Swinging your sword faster, having more health, having more stable internet connection, having better status resist, etc. all contribute to making Lockdown less skill-based.
That silly. Except for the internet thing, that's the #1 factor that screws with Lockdown (and well, most internet games) and being 'skill-based'.
If UV and Trinkets didn't exist, we'd have armor sets. Vog set + Striker gives you max ASI (the game-changing stat) for swords, and Justifier/Nameless + Recon gives you max gun ASI. Skolver-Striker gives you max damage swords, and Shadowsun gives you VH Damage with guns.
In fighting games, some characters are faster than others, and some are stronger than others (per hit). Some have ranged, others don't. Some might have combinations of them, and might just be better than other characters. It's the same way with armor sets. With trinket and UV combinations.
In the end, when two players are playing against each other, they're in control of their own movements and execution. AT and unstable internet gets in the way of this.
Thu, 06/26/2014 - 00:57
#22
Seiran
If UV and Trinkets didn't exist, we'd have armor sets. Vog set + Striker gives you max ASI (the game-changing stat) for swords, and Justifier/Nameless + Recon gives you max gun ASI. Skolver-Striker gives you max damage swords, and Shadowsun gives you VH Damage with guns.
^ Name one armor combination that lets you get ASI max, DMG max, CTR max for swords AND guns. SK equipment isn't well balanced as it is, if you throw in UVs, it becomes ridiculous.
Yes, Spiral Knights, like many other games have some gear that are just better than others. However, when you augment them with UVs and trinkets, you widen that gap dramatically. ASI aggravates connection issues, and health trinkets are OP since defense hardly matters in LD. As someone who wants the game to be based on skill, why would you choose the "overpowered" gear when other people are not using it?
The equivalent is using level 100 pokemon against level 80 pokemon in a pokemon battle. It's not so much that everyone has access to level 100 pokemon as it is you chose to use level 100s when you know your opponents are mostly level 80s.
Can level 80s beat level 100s? Sure, but it requires more strategy (ie. skill). On the other hand, it requires less strategy for level 100s to beat level 80s.
^Isn't that the basic argument against AT? That it requires less skill to beat someone with the help of AT? Well, the same thing applies to UVs, trinkets, etc.
Anyways, the main point is there is very little evidence to suggest "ideals" is the motivating factor. There is a lot of evidence suggesting "ego" is the motivating factor.
Thu, 06/26/2014 - 01:25
#23
LD'ers these days...
Complaining about a function they all have because their fragile ego can't handle losing.
Complaining about someone effectively aiming in a 2D format.
Complaining because they feel LD should be the next major pvp game at mlg tourneys.
Old ld'ers these days....
Laughing at all the tears.
Thu, 06/26/2014 - 03:24
#24
The non ATers are bot the ones who can't handle loosing.
Clearly the AT noobs couldn't handle loosing, so they started using aimbot.
Thu, 06/26/2014 - 04:04
#25
Aimbot isn't auto target.
Aimbot will pretty much hit without connecting the object. Auto target will correct your swing a few degrees, which ain't much when using Sealed swords or Toothpicks which have almost a 180 degree radius.
I'm pretty sure everyone can handle losing a LD game, it's just the dying part that people can't handle.
You want a skill based game but you guys use trinkets, UV's and 4 bar connections I don't see how AT could possibly make it worse. LD's broken as it is already, the community is toxic and filled with negativity, people put others down because they used a function implemented into the game "AT noobs."
Remove chatting from lockdown and people will bitch about not being able to bitch
Remove UV's from lockdown and OOO starts losing money
Remove AT and the people with 1 bar connection will feed like boss to jellies, let alone other players.
Remove trinkets and we live for about 10 seconds then take 20 seconds to respawn
Remove LD and yay, everyone quits.
Or
Leave it like it is. And Sometimes you die, AT or not. Grow up and just DEAL WITH IT.
Thu, 06/26/2014 - 04:25
#26
@Pithless
You're going to deal with a pola
Thu, 06/26/2014 - 04:33
#27
Or they can remove AT and 1 bar people can GROW UP AND DEAL WITH IT.
Same thing.
Thu, 06/26/2014 - 04:50
#28
"Or they can remove AT and 1 bar people can GROW UP AND DEAL WITH IT."
Or they could keep AT and you guys who are taking this way too seriously can GROW UP AND DEAL WITH IT.
Just because you guys want to make Lockdown a competitive place doesn't mean others have to abide by some dumb rules that you think should just be accepted by every Lockdown player ever. Some people actually want to have fun.
Thu, 06/26/2014 - 05:03
#29
Or they could make a better implementation of AT that make it help high latency players as much as it does now while also making it less effective for low ping players who don't have to rely on it.
Just because you guys want to make Lockdown a divided community doesn't mean others agree on some dumb changes that you think should be accepted by every Lockdown player ever. Some people can actually come up with creative solutions that make both parts happy.
Thu, 06/26/2014 - 05:34
#30
Dibsville, I was showing how incredibly silly and ridiculous Pithless comments are.
Best way for everyone would be to have AT vary with your ping. Or lobbies.
Thu, 06/26/2014 - 05:35
#31
Then I apologize for my earlier comment...
@Krakob & Theirillusion
That would be lovely, too bad that's not one of Three Rings concerns right now... right?
Thu, 06/26/2014 - 05:52
#32
Yes. The LD community is amazing at overestimating its size. We should all simply just care less, I'd say. People have argued about AT for quite a while and it has made absolutely no difference.
Thu, 06/26/2014 - 06:07
#33
"People have argued about AT for quite a while and it has made absolutely no difference."
I'd say it's pissed plenty of people off over the time it's been discussed.
That's something.
Thu, 06/26/2014 - 06:49
#34
UVs and stuff
^Isn't that the basic argument against AT? That it requires less skill to beat someone with the help of AT? Well, the same thing applies to UVs, trinkets, etc.
Eh, maybe.
In my eyes, ASI is the only UV/stat that really affects skill potential because it affects how early you can move and how vulnerable you are. Your options actually change with ASI.
DMG/HP don't matter as much to me (in terms of 1v1):
They're definitely useful in the world of team battles though - the HP lets you survive ambushes and the DMG lets your hits count for more when you're hitting multiple enemies or helping teammates, but in 1v1, all they affect is how long encounters last, but they don't really change the options of your moveset.
ex: I can play the same with no damage trinkets as I can with damage trinkets - I'd just take less time to kill the targets that I would already kill.
If you're underskilled but add health trinkets, you'll still be a punching bag.
If I have less ASI, I need to be more careful about throwing out moves.
CTR? I can't really say much about it since charging is generally a first-hit thing and a bad idea mid-battle so I'll ignore that.
Anyways, the main point is there is very little evidence to suggest "ideals" is the motivating factor. There is a lot of evidence suggesting "ego" is the motivating factor.
Oh, I don't argue that. In-game it's definitely ego, haha. When you see people trying to argue to ban AT on forums, that's ideals.
Thu, 06/26/2014 - 19:10
#35
I only just read this post and Hell, I can't believe you are still using the excuse I made up way back then. I have tested it myself, red-bar connection does not screw up your aim. It still works fine, it's just your inability to reach someone.
-Let's use a FF/BTB swing for example:
If you see people swing and I hit with the tip of the sword, I can't do that. I dash in front of the guy and swing and I hit him. See? Not even Auto-target.
-Let's use a GF/DA swing for example:
To hit someone moving at you, swing when they're about 4 tiles away and you will hit them.
~Trust the Lagger
-Noc
Thu, 06/26/2014 - 21:58
#36
@Nocturne-Grande
Oi Mate, different countries has different latency experience...
#Youdon'tknowSEA
Fri, 06/27/2014 - 01:19
#37
@Hellscreams
You don't know what the lag is like on the deadpoint of the server reaches.
#SouthWestAustralia
Fri, 06/27/2014 - 04:10
#38
@Nocturne-Grande
Yes I do !? It's like the opposite of the asia server...
#Amiright?
I play a lot of lockdown using the keyboard controls (UpDownLeftRight keys) and most of the time, my aiming is good w/o AT. I would say that people who do use AT with either keyboard or mouse controls can somewhat 'screw their aim' if there is more than one player in a small area, maybe making them hit the wrong enemy that they didn't want to hit?