I don't understand business plans like this. Today I had the choice of either playing or making a recipe. I made a recipe and logged out. THIS GAME IS FUN!
I thought Three Ring's priority right now was a better energy system?
Thu, 01/06/2011 - 08:06
Thu, 01/06/2011 - 08:51
#2
"Priority" doesn't mean
"Priority" doesn't mean they're going to halt everything else while they sit around trying to fix the single issue.
Spiral Knights is healthy as part of a balanced meal.
Other economic models include full subscription (WoW, you either pay or no game at all), freemium (Runescape, you can play a small % of the game, or pay for access to the rest of the game), cash shops (Maple Story? you can play, but paying will get you a lot better stuff).
It's pretty much all the same when it comes down to it. It's just that the "free part" is arranged differently. I like Spiral Knights since it allows you into almost every nook and cranny of the game right now at the cost of time, rather than just money (money saves you time).
Thu, 01/06/2011 - 19:02
#3
Clarification, the maplestory
Clarification, the maplestory cash shop does not offer better gear, only items of convenience such as continent teleportation rocks, excluding the ability to access same-stat recolors of weapons available through gachapon, which are usually sold for in-game currency anyway.
Thu, 01/06/2011 - 20:29
#4
^ they use some items to scam
^ they use some items to scam blind fools of their money. It's a common scam used in many games with a cash shop.
Fri, 01/07/2011 - 11:34
#5
IMHO
the whole energy system is still not straight. One of the biggest drawback of the game is that playtime is very limited by the amount of energy you have, and if you run out of mist energy you'll have to buy the crystals. In most other free games there's the free content, which a free player can do all day long, and there's a premium content, which the players have to pay for. Since SK is suppose to be a free game with premium content, then the everything-needs-energy theme of the game is just bad..
love the game, but just saying..
Fri, 01/07/2011 - 14:49
#6
Spiral Knights does not have any "premium" content.
Spiral Knights does not have any "premium" cash-only content. I don't know what you're referring to, Blackhawke. Yes, there are goods and services that require more than 100 energy to utilize, but with shrewd use of the Energy Exchange, any patient player can experience everything in our game without ever paying us a dime.
There are currently no plans to introduce cash-only items or content, and if the Energy Exchange system works properly, we'll never have to introduce them.
Fri, 01/07/2011 - 20:56
#7
But you know, I think they
But you know, I think they should change something just for the sake of the beta. Makes starting out a little annoying but I admit it's a successful model (There is so much energy being bought and sold on the market) and once you get to a certain point, the penalties are a lot less harsh even though you don't spend a dime.
Fri, 01/07/2011 - 20:57
#8
Double post
A double post, now how did that happen...
Sat, 01/08/2011 - 09:05
#9
Not really though! once every
Not really though! once every 2 hours or so, just take a glance at the marketplace. You'll notice how LITTLE it changes.
Three Rings made a hardcore game for a casual audience. Things don't work that way!
Sun, 01/09/2011 - 19:59
#10
Ben Hurr
My question is why are there even people swooping in to defend this company when people complain about the energy system? It's not like they're on your side or something, they want your money.
Anyway energy is a bit broken at the moment though, it basically boils down to play ten dungeon floors or craft two items a day, otherwise pay up until you can make enough crowns to buy the stuff off the market.
Adjusting the daily limit would easily fix this.
Sun, 01/09/2011 - 20:28
#11
"My question is why are there
"My question is why are there even people swooping in to defend this company when people complain about the energy system? It's not like they're on your side or something, they want your money."
No, but there are certain realities that some people fail to observe (like companies need money to survive, while those people just act like everything should be freely unlimited), and if a discussion is going to be meaningful it needs to weight both benefits and penalties of the various proposals. Nobody wants 3Rings to remove the energy system and replace it with something worse, and then simply implode as a company.
Just complaining is not constructive criticism.
Sun, 01/09/2011 - 22:36
#12
My View
Have Energy Used For This:
1. Weapon Making
2. Weapon Buying (In the sense buy a weapon from a shop have super nice weapons be worth x amount of energy as well....as crowns)
3. Buying Recipes - Having certain recipes have a small energy fee.
4. In the future make something that cost energy which can give you 2x's or 4x's heat per each depth you do.
5. 2x's to 4x's - Amount of crowns gained per depth
Now I know 3 Rings still wants to make having energy somewhat important so more people by so how about this system:
50.00 Dollars per 1 year can get you the following:
1,500 Energy Per Month
5,000 Crowns
On-Top Of this - You can still buy energy as players can currently.
To-Add:
Add Energy Only dungeons (Maps) where to play these maps the drops are "better" a bit harder, but each depth cost 20 Energy (Why 20 Energy? Because it inflates the value of energy, and if done right players would want to try these maps out due to the fact *Sunsilver can only be found here etc.*.
I dont think its a good idea having energy used for going down those maps only because it makes this game fun for about 30 minutes then your done for the day. With some of those ideas I just posted, and well a bit more added on I have plenty of ideas like many others, but with that said I do not want to post a 20,000 word essay for you guys to read. I think the ideas I posted on this topic could easily change the energy system for the best. It allows players to have fun, and energy buyers to not lose value in the game.
Sun, 01/09/2011 - 23:58
#13
There's something else to
There's something else to consider when it comes to micropayments. Having totally free content doesn't work that well as people will grind them out to make crowns so that they can buy energy off of the market, so they can do the special energy only rooms. The result? More crowns in the system meaning inflation, meaning we're back to square one.
Mon, 01/10/2011 - 15:18
#14
@JPINFV
Yes, that makes sense what your saying, but they could easily lower the amount of crowns in the free areas. Tier 2 is said to average 1k Crowns a floor make it 200 to 500 sounds like crap not going to lie, but this would make gaining crowns to buy energy much harder.
Mon, 01/10/2011 - 20:34
#15
I have but one issue to
I have but one issue to raise.
CE could be bought at one point when I started playing, relatively easy. When Ruby King gate was around, we had arenas to grind and earn lots of crown and heat. Using the somewhat 10k crowns, we'd have used up 60 energy and could buy back another 100 using about4-5k crowns.
Now, Ruby King has gone for the meantime and there hasn't been a decent place to earn money. Sinc then, people can;t make more crowns and CE and as a result (in my guild most specifically) 60% of our members have either quit or are extremely inactive.
Now, while this 'arena drought' has been happening, I feel the gameplay has become slow and kind of boring. I log on, play a couple runs of a gate. I earn some nice mats and some cool weapon/armor drops, but then I cant do much else. I don't want to run some dungeons as you I am getting around 2 pixels of heat per equips at a time.
I have no prblem with the energy system as such, but I feel the prices for buying CE are too high.
Let's think about it this way, and please consider these points carefully:
I have bought a bundle of energy 3 times of my card. I'm not really ashamed to admit it, I enjoy a game, I'll pay to play.
But thwen you look at a big developer like Billzard, who are out to make money, they charge around £10 a month if I wanted to play WoW.
I have bought 3 bundles of energy, and it's been 2 weeks, costing me a total of £30.
There's an argument that Billzard and WoW have a lot more users and can afford to reduce the subcription fee more. Three Rings are a small developer and need to earn a little more.
But WoW has so much mroe content than that. The funny thing is, I don't like WoW. I played a trial, and got bored as I wasn;t willing to grind to level 80 to start having fun.
But my point is, you don't need to charge so much for something that is so easily squandered in just palying.
Mathematics help here:
- Play a few gates through from T2 to T3. That's around 60-80 energy per run.
- Say i run it 4 times. That's a minimum of 240 energy
- I make some armor. I'm 4star equipped, so I'm getting into the high price recipes now. around 300-400 energy to craft.
- I make about 2 equips a week. that's a minimum of 600.
So, 240 energy a day for gates, times a possible 7 days worth is 1680, plus the crafting fees in a week is around 600, bringing a total of:
2280.
I'm left with around 1000 energy. Next week I'll be out and have to pay again. so ina space of 4 weeks I've spent £30 and in a game that's still not fully released, needs blatantly obvious improvements like seeing who is online in your guild etc.
My complaint is either reduce the cost of buying CE, or increase the ratio of CE per £/$, or give us a permanent option to grind for corwns.
A gate maybe that is full arena, for bragging rights and crowns. Reduce the heat in it, I don't care. Just as long as we can still PLAY the game after a few days.
I won't be spending as much as I have done. I have resopnsibilities in life, and wasting £30 on an online game doesn't help.
By all logic I could go enjoy an MMO witha sub fee for 3 months roughly and ignore this game. It has greta potential but things are being pulled off brashly and without grace.
That's my opinion.
Mon, 01/10/2011 - 22:12
#16
Micropayment games have
Micropayment games have always cost more. It's a simple fact.
You're essentially arguing that you've spent so much more money than a game that has already been released, been out for years, and has had years of testing and experiments to see exactly what people are willing to pay. Sure, it only costs about 10-15 USD a month to play, but did you also see the special mounts that people paid over something like 30 USD for? And you know what it does? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It mimics your best mount. And you know how many people actually bought that? Millions. Millions of people paid 30 USD each to buy a mount that does nothing but look nice. That's a company that's out for money.
On the other hand, you have Three Rings, who is trying to envelope a microtransaction system into the game itself, instead of having you pay for flare. They've already said the Energy system is bad, and they already said they intend to improve it. Sure, you've spent the money now, but when they improve the Energy system, I can almost guarantee a player-wipe then or sometime in the near future. That happens, you get your CE back, ALL OF IT, and now you have a superior system. Sure, you spent money back then, and maybe a little too much, but now you have so much Energy in comparison with the new system that you never need to buy Energy again. Or, if you do, not for a long time unless you sell 90% of it on the Market.
The problem is is that the game is IN DEVELOPMENT. You KNEW this. You 100% knew this when you signed up to play, and CHOOSE to pay for CE. If you don't like the Energy system, and don't want to compensate for the current system by buying CE, you can simply stop playing until it's fixed. No one has a knife on your neck demanding that you play Spiral Knights day in and day out.
If all Three Rings was after was your money, they'd insist that everything is "fine" even if it's a known fact that nothing is fine. You have to give them time. Unlike WoW, and the generic Cash Shop system, the Energy system being used in this game is a new concept. It really hasn't been tested by ANYONE as to what is the best combination of Paid and Unpaid Energy to please players. You have to give it time. If you cannot give it time, then just stop playing, because your impatience is not magically going to fix anything. Your constant complaining about the system is not going to change anything. They need to figure it out, they need to work it out, that's why the game is in development.
@Njthug, Half of those suggestions are exactly what they are trying to avoid. Making players with CE gain unfair advantages is not what the developers want. Someone on this thread said that (Though I don't know if they are actually part of the Three Rings team or not). Your suggestions for difference usages of Energy is worse. That will give people with their Mother's Credit Card or just way too much money a large and unfair advantage over players who cannot afford CE every other day. They can buy all those special recipes. They can always afford 4x Crowns and Heat. And then when they have the 4x Crowns and Heat, do you know what they do? They buy out the CE Market until it's at a point of super inflation, where 100 CE costs 100,000 Crowns because everyone who has money has a ton. It creates an imbalance that doesn't need to exist. They simply need to work the system out, and as I said above, you have to let them.
Mon, 01/10/2011 - 22:41
#17
For the Record
In case people don't know the Devs posting in the forums are:
- Nick
- Blackhat
- Andrzej
- Mjohnson
- Wtfwtf_ok
- Jcollie
- Poseidon
- Cory
The original thread where they were listed has been long buried, so I guess a re-post in a popular thread is good for some of the newer people around here.
Still my favorite Energy suggestion was to make the Energy cost of the Elevators relevant to their Tiers (and thus their reward rates). This way there isn't so much of a hump to get over before you can become a self-sufficient player. In my opinion this seems to be of the larger factor in the attrition rate of new players.
Mon, 01/10/2011 - 22:48
#18
@d0gr0ck, I think I've made a
@d0gr0ck, I think I've made a similar suggestion on the "No energy =/= exploring" thread a week or so ago. It's definitely something that needs some looking into. Since at higher tiers you have the ability to get more crowns to buy CE faster from players, it makes it logical that it would cost more Energy to get to those levels. It would also help new players conserve their energy when they're not spending an entire day's ME on one set of floors.
Hopefully the developers are taking our suggestions into consideration. Only time will tell.
Tue, 01/11/2011 - 00:19
#19
Sigh.
@ Riley
I'll try this
Sigh.
@ Riley
I'll try this again. Assuming that OOO doesn't magic up CE (the only reason why I'd even venture that they would is because the game is in closed beta. It's widely known that they do not magic up doubloons over on Y!PP), increasing the supply of crowns is absolutely not the answer. The only way to make it easier to buy CE is by increasing the supply of CE, which means cheaper prices for CE (not necessarily wrong. Marginal cost=marginal benefit and all that jazz), or getting more players to buy CE and sell it on the market. Any other suggestions, like grinding out arenas, shows a fundamental lack of understanding of economics.
Now, the issue with micropayments is a little complicated (repeating myself here) by being closed beta, which means less people (both buying and using) as well as a probable reluctance of some to pay money to play a game in development. The fact that the market hasn't found its equilibrium point (which looks like it is getting close now that the buy/sell margin is closing) just shows that there's volitility in the market as well as the game being somewhat new (I honestly don't know how long closed beta has been). Christmas time, which means vacation for students and time off from work) means more demand, which will also drive up prices. Anyone who has any slight familiarity with micropayment markets (how many people here play a dub ocean on Y!PP?) should not be surprised by watching the price go up, or that there can be some wild fluctuations.
@Njthug
Decreasing payout would, as the supply starts to run dry, start to run down CE prices. However, it doesn't really help that much. Sure, it costs a lot less for CEs, but it's harder to come by. Additionally, what OOO absolutely doesn't want to do is make it too hard to start out. What you don't want is to undervalue T1 and T2 to help prevent inflation, while essentially giving everyone who hopped on and have managed to get to T3 a gravy train due to higher payouts at T3. If anything, relative to difficulty, T1 should pay the most. To clarify, T3 should always pay more than T2, which should always pay more than T1. However payment needs to be balanced towards difficulty too. For example, grave yards are probably not balanced. It's relatively easy to engage the skeletons one by one, times a ton of skeletons means a huge payout for 10 units of energy. Sure, T2 graveyard is going to pay less than T3 levels, but geared towards difficulty, grave yards are relatively easy and pay too much. It's this payout to difficulty comparison that needs to be higher for new players so that they can engage in the game more so that they can be hooked in.
Tue, 01/11/2011 - 00:23
#20
Quick clarification.
I am in
Quick clarification.
I am in no way affilitated with OOO outside of being a consumer. I've played off and on on the doubloon (micropayment) oceans (servers) over at Puzzle Pirates for almost 6 years (since their first micropayment ocean, Viridian opened up). Do I have access to all of the inside data regarding the micropayment market that OOO has? Definitely not, but seeing two separate oceans open from almost the start (Viridian and Malachite), and having played on a third (Sage), it's not too hard to guess what the market is going to do. Additionally, once Spiral Knights goes to production, expect to see people seriously speculating on the energy market. It happens all the time on Y!PP.
Tue, 01/11/2011 - 06:37
#21
A sentence.
When comparing the CE market to the Doubloon market - or Spiral Knights to Puzzle Pirates - don't forget that in Puzzle Pirates you can 'grind' for PoE by taking part in activities that don't require badges to pay for your Doubloons whereas in Spiral Knights pretty much everything requires Energy, making it much more of a Grind indeed unless you purchase CE with real world money early on.
Tue, 01/11/2011 - 06:33
#22
pretty much everything
pretty much everything requires energy... whether it's mist or crystal is mostly a player's choice. Crystal energy bypasses "waiting" (waiting for mist energy to regen, limited "depth" per day, number of crafting per day, etc).
Tue, 01/11/2011 - 10:01
#23
I agree with syzygy
Hopefully spiral knights will have more or less a similar economy to ypp and the dubs system, where a player doesnt have to spend dubs to do a voyage, and sk doesnt need energy to do gates. Theres already a huge amount of energy spent on crafting, which is an essential part of the game, so having the additional 10/lvl energy requirement is just too much. By removing the energy reqs on gates, the ME isnt needed anymore, so the currencies are just cr and CE. also, if theres absolute needs to have other ways to spend CE, then theres the option to require players to pay not only the cr cost but also a set amount of CE. Comments/critism?
Tue, 01/11/2011 - 12:24
#24
@Syzygy
True, you can make
@Syzygy
True, you can make PoE without using Dubs, however you also get free Mist Energy. Of course the other huge issue is that Spiral Knights is being designed around the micropayment model while Y!PP was designed around a subscription model that had micropayment bolted on after development. Of course, there's other nuances as well with how in game currency (crowns/PoE) is handled depending on group size and composition. Assuming that you can solo a level, going from solo to 2 people means a 50% cut regardless of who you're playing with, while in Y!PP pillage earnings plummet with a greenie (new player) on board, which makes it harder for new players to earn PoE until they can buy a bravery badge. To make it even harder, it's become harder and harder to find good notice board pillages, which makes the grind, albeit "free" harder.
Tue, 01/11/2011 - 20:41
#25
To throw in my data points:
To throw in my data points:
I spent $20 for about 45 hours (over 2ish months) of gameplay at (what would now be) Tier 1 and 2 levels. I was smart about crafting on days I didn't have time to play, I bought some CE with crowns, and I sold some CE for crowns. I wasn't stingy about revives, but I certainly wasn't running the full depth of a gate every day. I would say it's a reasonable cost for that much play time, though certainly not as cheap as other games out there. (Though I am glad I'm getting double and some CE out of my money).
Now that I'm trying to get into Tier 3, I'm seeing higher crafting costs, but once I have my gear made, it should level off again. And then... Profit?
One thing I would like to see is something that levels out the amount of free play given out for players who can play every day and those who can only play every week or so. An example would be gathering excessive ME at diminishing rate on days where you don't log in, so you have a bit more to spend on days when you can log in. The "gotta log in every day or else my ME will be wasted!" drive is harsh.
Tue, 01/11/2011 - 23:13
#26
@skaf, The biggest issue with
@skaf, The biggest issue with the Energy system right now is the pure cost for 4 and 5 star items. 4 star items cost 200 Energy, and 5 star items cost 300 Energy. You can't gather ME to spend for that, and if you're using your crowns for Recipes, you can't make buy the CE from other players either.
This is the major point in where the Energy system needs to be revamped. The pure costs in everything combined makes it a bad system. My major suggestion is to make everything POSSIBLE to buy with ME. 5 star items should cost 100 Energy, not 300, where you have to get Crystal Energy somehow to pay for it. Gates shouldn't cost 10 Energy each, because you can complete a gate in an hour if you're fast, you complete an entire tier and you're out of energy in an hour, it's a tad anti-productive.
The Energy system itself is good in my opinion, it just needs a revamp in terms of costs.
Tue, 01/11/2011 - 23:29
#27
Part of the problem with
Part of the problem with designing changes is also trying to prevent alt abuse. I'm going to throw this out there because it might spark some ideas, but in a pure form it's usable because of alt abuse. What if you had the option of going into ME debt? 4 star is 200 units of energy. Save up to 100 units of energy and go into debt for 100 energy. Over the next day you get back to zero energy, and then a second day to get back to 100 energy. It provides an option for people who know that they can't play for a few days to not lose energy. Similarly, maybe a third form of energy that gets filled up, but has limited use. For the Y!PP players, think of reserve labour for shoppes and stalls.
On a side note, why don't people use alts for crafting anyways? There's your 100 ME a day without wasting it.
Wed, 01/12/2011 - 01:34
#28
ME gathers based on your IP.
ME gathers based on your IP. If you have two accounts, only one gets ME, or it's shared between your accounts, I don't remember which.
Plus, once you get to 4* items, you can't trade the previous weapon once it's equipped, and it needs to be leveled to be used for the craft.
Wed, 01/12/2011 - 01:58
#29
It's most likely shared
It's most likely shared between all 3 alts on one account because this would put families at an extreme disadvantage. However, (ok, I'll admit it, I haven't read the TOS for Spiral Knights yet) is there something that says that you're restricted to one account?
I actually forgot about the entire binding thing and needing to level up to 5 to craft 4* equipment, but it would work for making 3* (which is 150 if you have to make the 2* input first).
Wed, 01/12/2011 - 02:27
#30
Well once crafted, it can be
Well once crafted, it can be traded again (leveling isn't that hard though) and it has been confirmed that it's based on the IP 'unless' you have bought real life money with an account, then it will not share it's ME pool. It would disadvantage families I suppose until the account is able to buy energy with its crowns. (As in everyone will use 1 character since ME is shared anyways) And I guess not everyone would like to share a character but this is probably what OOO put in place to prevent multiclienting.
Wed, 01/12/2011 - 09:39
#31
@Polaris
Polaris: ME gathers based on your IP. If you have two accounts, only one gets ME ...
Wrong. ME gathers based on your account. Your computer is magically tied to your account too though, so that you have one main account. All other accounts on your computer use that main's mist, with exception to paid accounts.
That means if anyone on another computer in your network logs on, their amount of ME depends on the account setting for their computer.
Wed, 01/12/2011 - 16:53
#32
So essentially its "shared
Who's Polaris? Oh, you mean Polantaris, me. Not trying to be rude, but the amount of people who can't type my name even remotely correctly when it's right there is hilarious.
So essentially its "shared between your accounts", as I said. The details don't really matter, having multiple accounts doesn't give you multiple stacks of ME, that's what matters.
Fri, 01/14/2011 - 15:27
#33
Removed some posts
Removed some posts here.
Discussing how to circumvent the Mist Energy system, whether these worked or not, is not appropriate. However if you want to make us aware of potential exploits then please do contact us via https://www.spiralknights.com/support/#mail .
Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:28
#34
Sorry, didn't even realize I
Sorry, didn't even realize I was really doing it xD.
Fri, 01/14/2011 - 16:57
#35
It's happened before, an
It's happened before, an entire thread was locked and deleted overnight. However, that time it happened so fast it took me a while to figure out what happened as we were never explicitly told what we said was inappropriate. At least this time it's a more public reprimand so this thread will be long buried before someone makes that mistake again. There are potential work arounds, but by the time the average user could get them working they might as well have purchased ME or shelled out the $0.75 to stop the energy sharing on a single computer.
Mon, 01/17/2011 - 02:23
#36
Personally, I would be
Oops, posted to the wrong thread. In any case, if we got a high level of development to the game and unlimited energy out of it, I wouldn't mind if this game was a monthly pay-to-play MMO.
Where do you get your info on Three Ring's priorities? As far as I know the only thing said officially was that in *some time in the future* the energy system will get another look at and possibly be rebalanced. No exact date has been set for this to happen though?