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I made this chart mostly for fun, but perhaps someone may find it interesting and/or useful. It doesn't take damage types into account, just playstyle.
Sword choice chart!
Sat, 07/05/2014 - 17:20
Sat, 07/05/2014 - 19:24
#2
@Krakky
Hmm, why is CIV a fun sword? It is a proper sword with actual niche and its charge attack is different from levi's, it should be in the same place as leviathan blade.
Sat, 07/05/2014 - 20:01
#3
meh
My personal favourite part of that was the part where it had a question involving whether the reader wanted a 'fast sword', or a 'sword with more knock-back', and the two options were 'yes' and 'no'.
Sat, 07/05/2014 - 21:26
#4
You're really undervaluing a lot of swords by putting them to the side as being for fun as opposed to being proper. I suppose it is accurate to what most people think though.
Sun, 07/06/2014 - 02:12
#5
@Sandwich Potato
Chaos set
@Sandwich Potato
Chaos set gives plenty of CTR, it's not hard to get by and that's not something I intended to cover with the chart.
@Midnight DJ
Because it's almost objectively worse than Levi. People overestimate the knockback difference, it's merely a single tile on most mobs.
That said, I agree that it's a bit underrated so I'll change the chart a bit.
@Prominis
Yeah I made this at 2 in the night, I was sure someone would find at least one derp in it. Thanks for pointing it out.
@Fehzor
I disagree that I'm undervaluing anything but perhaps DVS and possibly WHB as well as CIV. I think I can add DVS at one part of it but I really don't think that any other swords on the fun side are good enough for T3 and most are objectively worse than other lines.
The exception is kind of Suda and Triglav, ofc. While they're arguably plain worse than say, DA, that's situational and the charge can deal over 1k damage per enemy in S6.
Sun, 07/06/2014 - 02:22
#6
What about Barbarous Thorn Blade and Final Flourish/Deadly Candy Poker? Their charges are actually very useful. They certainly don't have bad charge attacks, or at least Barbarous Thorn Blade doesn't require setting up things like Final Flourish might.
Sun, 07/06/2014 - 04:42
#7
Hm, that is true. I don't think the charges are very good, though. Just situationally usable but never at the same level as many other charges. Still, I should probably change it a bit because it is incorrect to say that the charges aren't good.
Edit: chart has been updated to reflect on critique.
Sun, 07/06/2014 - 08:34
#8
Chart: Do you want to use this sword in lockdown?
Yes - voltedge
no - Glacius/Combuster
I'd say that glacius is good in pvp. Freeze is arguably one of the better statuses in lockdown, since you can charge up and get another huge hit in without giving them a chance to get away. I would make the choice "Do you want damage or safety?" and splitting to combuster for damage and glacius for safety, with voltedge as a mix of the two.
This is a cool chart, I like it.
Sudaruska is more of a proper sword than those silly sealed sword things. They don't deserve to be called heavy swords, they're mostly made out of light or shadow anyway.
Sun, 07/06/2014 - 08:51
#9
Glacius is indeed goof for LD but Voltedge is more or less the best weapon to charge in LD because it can one-shot a double penta Striker, and nothing else can do that. It's due to the shock. You start with a huge load of damage and if it shocks, the explosions that follow finish of the enemy.
Combuster does have lots of safety due to the knockback, but the freeze and shock statuses can provide it too, so I don't think it's fair to call any of the three unsafe.
Sun, 07/06/2014 - 11:56
#10
loadout planner
For a long time I've been thinking of making a loadout planner like this, as a branching set of wiki pages. It would guide you through questions: How many weapon slots will you use: 2, 3, or 4? What will your primary weapon type (swords, guns, bombs) be? What secondary/tertiary types do you want? Then it would propose weapon and armor combinations for general use, for FSC, for Shadow Lairs, etc.
For example, if you ended up at "two slots, swords+guns" then it might say:
* general: Acheron+Storm/Nova/Magma or Combuster/Voltedge+Valiance
* FSC: Combuster/Voltedge+Blitz
* etc.
If you ended up at "three slots, bombs+swords" then it might say:
* general: DBB+DR+Suda/Trig/Levi/DVS
* etc.
Please get to work on this. ;)
Sun, 07/06/2014 - 13:37
#11
@Bopp
I think something like that would be best to design as a web application, best made in JavaScript. However, I don't really know that much JS and I have other programming projects to work on. That said, if I'd pick up JS to do stuff for the SK community, I'd probably start with making a script to extend the one by Culture (I can't link to it right now, Userscripts.org appears to be down) and allow users to get some handy posting functionality like easy quoting, bypassing the preview and just post, simplified lists, using and abusing special characters to create strikethrough and bigger text, etc.
Sun, 07/06/2014 - 14:06
#12
I use my fearless rigadoon all the time as more than a joke weapon. Similarly, fang of vog has a specific place that you don't really reach either, as do the cutters. A better way to do this would be to separate them by what their intended use is, rather than their stats and whether or not you want to just take a bad weapon.
Sat, 07/12/2014 - 04:58
#13
The Chart
I think its great and a good innovative idea.Although there are a few kinks.
Sat, 07/12/2014 - 20:41
#14
I wish I had time to create things D:
Woes of a Pandafishie. Looks pretty cool though. I like it.^^
Sat, 07/12/2014 - 21:57
#15
Ahhh, another underestimation
Ahhh, another underestimation of the Fang of Vog.
Very nice chart, but if I may comment on this epic weapon:
FoV charge:
- can most reliably knock rocket puppy rockets out of the air, out of swords and guns
-is the only one that can one hit any turret on D28 elite
-has wicked knockback
-gives you a real flame aura for some time
-can wreck gremlins and wolvers safely, despite being elemental
-makes people with combusters feel inadequate
-is arguably the most effective against swarm seed
-is the only thing that can break you out of freeze by yourself
Probably more, but here is a short list of the awesomeness of the FoV charge. The fire on normal attacks is awesome too, in case you are low on healh. All you need to unlock the power of the FoV is at least 7 pts fire res, and dmg med or higher, and lvl 10. CTR isnt necessary as the self fire sometimes negates the benefits. Hopefullly I will find more people in clockworks with cool loadouts
Sun, 07/13/2014 - 00:58
#16
Yes, I repeat points a lot, but they need to be said a lot...
@Fettuccine-Alfredo
I think you're overestimating Fang of Vog. While true it's an amazing niche weapon, and its damage is unbelievable, easily the strongest sword charge in the game, that's all it has going for it. The 3-hit combo is slow and the damage is lacking, and having the chance to set yourself on fire is only a good idea if you're frozen, and even in that scenario it's pretty sketchy. In a Fang of Vog vs Combuster face-off, Fang of Vog is going to have the more powerful charge attack, sure, but it risks setting the user on fire and you have to get relatively close to the enemy (not very close due to the charge's huge range, but you miss out on extra hits if you try to clip the enemies with the charge), whereas Combuster can effectively 'snipe' the enemy while still doing huge damage. Although Fang of Vog can set enemies on fire with its normal attacks, Combuster's higher base damage and faster swing speed easily makes up for this loss of status on regular hits.
Fang of Vog is a great sword, sure, but in a serious situation it's damage is lacking and its slow attacks leave you open. The charge is powerful but you have to get relatively close to the enemy to get any real effect from it, and at the risk of setting yourself on fire. You mention it is very effective on the swarm seed, which it is, but bringing a Fang of Vog through an entire Shadow Lair just to use it on the swarm seed probably isn't the best idea when you could just bring something better. You won't be destroying the seed as quickly as you could, but it really doesn't matter in the long run since the seed goes down relatively quickly anyway.
Also, "Fun" does not imply "bad", Fang of Vog certainly has its uses, but in reality it's just a cool little niche weapon.
Sun, 07/13/2014 - 03:15
#17
- can most reliably knock rocket puppy rockets out of the air, out of swords and guns
Nonono, that's the big swords. Hitbox is everything. Also, Blackhawk.
-is the only one that can one hit any turret on D28 elite
Pretty sure DA and Levi have the ability too, but it naturally depends on several factors such as party size and damage bonus.
-has wicked knockback
Except only on the charge, and several weapons have at least as good knockback without the self fire.
-gives you a real flame aura for some time
This is not a good thing.
-can wreck gremlins and wolvers safely, despite being elemental
Same goes for Combuster. I'd choose Combuster over FoV for the task any day of the week except Saturdays.
-makes people with combusters feel inadequate
That's because Combuster is far beyond adequate.
-is arguably the most effective against swarm seed
Most probably doesn't beat DR and Blitz and seriously, you can't keep the seed down the entire fight with charges.
-is the only thing that can break you out of freeze by yourself
That's a good point, but it's seldom going to be useful because chances are an enemy is gonna come and get you while charging, which means that using your shield would've been the better pick. If no enemy comes, your freeze will probably more or less have ended by the time you're done charging.
I get the feeling that you're valuing FoV higher than Combuster and that's downright silly because FoV is not a good weapon. Yes, it has niches. It's not inherently bad but it's outclassed by all other elemental weapons. That along with the very specific sets you need to use it makes it extremely niched because getting a good FoV loadout isn't very easy.
Sun, 07/13/2014 - 07:43
#18
@Bopp
I'll see what I can do.
Edit: Watch this space
Sun, 07/13/2014 - 07:21
#19
@Krakob my bad, shpuld have
@Krakob my bad, shpuld have been more specific on a few
-about the one hitting turret: party of 4, elite on D28
-any weapon can knock rockets out of the air (did it with caliance charge once), but due to the nature of the FoV charge attack (range + omnidirectional attack + speed vs bomb fuse), it could be the easiest weapon to do that with. Just my opinion tho :)
-
Also, i thought FR couldnt hit swarm seed due to glitches with the hitbox? Idk
I should mention that I use my FoV with 9 pts fire res (makes strong fire last for 4 seconds and hit 3 times, doing 3-4 bars of dmg), at dmg bonus VH.
And last thing, you are right mostly for the combuster winning against FoV against beasts and gremlins. Hoqever, FoV (in my opinion only) is better against menders, anything stuck in a corner, and beasts that projectile dodge.
I probably am overestimating it, but I feel like it is a viable weapon to use as opposed to fun.
Just my humble opinion on this sword (since I always get "your sword sux brah" in game from inexperienced players). With a few tweaks I think your chart could be added to the wiki! Nice work :)
The only thing I can give the FoV a downside on is that, surprisingly, it sucks in IQ. Thats probably cause I suck tho, so no worries.
Sun, 07/13/2014 - 07:37
#20
about FoV
i used the Fang of Vog for a while, it's a fun weapon but if you don't have fire resistance (Vog + pet perks) and some ASI it's not worth it, and if you have ASI it's stil better to get some other elemental weapons. It's surely fun and have a powerful charge but the normal combo is really bad.
You can still use it in Lockdown and troll noobs with the charge.
Sun, 07/13/2014 - 11:21
#21
Zeddy, your program is already about as correct as you can be.
@"FoV is the only weapon that can one-charge a turret on D28 elite 4 person party things"
Have you tried a volcanic pepperbox? Mine's only level 5 but it comes close without even having any damage boost. It doesn't set you on fire, either.
Sun, 07/13/2014 - 13:05
#22
@above
@above posts
Hmm...interesting point about the volcanic pepperbox. However, FoV still outdamages against neutral enemies, dealing 1932 dmg vs the VP's 1600 or so. And its faster, and safer with fire resist.
I can ask a guildie to test out VP though at D28 elite 4 person party, if its level 10.
@modico the normal combo is actually quite interesting. Ive found that the 3rd hit of combuster (without AT in PvE) sometimes goes thru ur enemy, while FoV asi med seems to hit consistently. Random quirks about the FoV make it quite interesting...but ya know. Fire and all.
Sun, 07/13/2014 - 13:55
#23
FoV actually has a better hitbox than Brandishes. Qwez said it in some thread and I've never tested it myself but I trust Qwez enough to just assume it's correct. Anyway, hitting more consistently with a Brandish is easier if you midstep between the 2nd and 3rd hits.
Sun, 07/13/2014 - 15:08
#24
@Bopp
This is hard from a design-standpoint.
Bopp, you see a lot of newbies asking weapon questions. What would be good inputs to have in the app? Right now I'm having a talk with Draycos and Krakob, and we're thinking of having some kind of tag system where the user is displayed a bunch of weapons with their tags that you can filter with a search bar. Combuster would have something like 'Fire, Safety, DPS, Knockback, Charge'.
I dunno. Give me something to go from.
Sun, 07/13/2014 - 17:59
#25
The best would be if Bopp joins us for chatting, I dare say.
Sun, 07/13/2014 - 19:06
#26
explained somewhat in post #10
I explain my idea somewhat in post #10. My idea was not an app, but a set of wiki pages that lead the reader through the decision process. The first page would be something like...
Think about how many weapon slots you'll be using: 2, 3, or 4. What will your primary weapon type be, and how many of them do you plan on carrying?
* 1 sword
* 2 swords
* 3 swords
* 4 swords
* 1 handgun
* 2 handguns
* 3 handguns
* 4 handguns
* 1 bomb
* 2 bombs
* 3 bombs
* 4 bombs
Clicking on "2 handguns" would take you to...
What other weapons will you carry:
* none
* 1 sword
* 2 swords
* 1 bomb
* 2 bombs
* 1 sword, 1 bomb
Clicking on "1 sword" would take you to...
When carrying two handguns, they should be different non-normal damage types, to optimize your damage against many kinds of monsters. Pick two of these three options:
* Blitz Needle (piercing)
* Nova Driver or Storm Driver (elemental)
* Umbra Driver (shadow)
Your side sword can either be the third non-normal damage type (to further optimize your damage) or normal (if you value versatility highly). So pick one of these options:
* Leviathan Blade or Sudaruska or Triglav
* Final Flourish or Barbarous Thorn Blade (unless you chose Blitz Needle)
* Combuster or Voltedge or Warmaster Rocket Hammer (unless you chose Nova/Storm)
* Acheron or Obsidian Edge (unless you chose Umbra)
Here are some shields to consider, from most offensive to most defensive:
* Swiftstrike Buckler
* Barbarous Thorn Shield
* Grey Owlite Shield, Crest of Almire, Omega Shell
Here are some armors to consider, from most offensive to most defensive:
* Chaos
* Perfect Mask of Seerus, Shadowsun, Nameless
Sun, 07/13/2014 - 19:49
#27
For the record, Qwez died of sadness and started derping around on other characters, but may be revived if a certain update occurs (or if there's some good FoV'n Slug'n to be had in LD)
I tested a year or two ago, but I concluded that the 1st strike has no increased range, 2nd strike has a half block of extra range, and the 3rd block has a full block of extra range, though I'm not sure if it's an adjusted hitbox(translation) or it actually has an increased hitbox. Or y'know you could just use mid-stepping as Krakob mentioned.
I think that this pick and choose set of wikipages is a little too systematic, convulted, and specific for it to function well. Perhaps just simplify it to two cases: One of a type, or multiple of a type. Then, give some relevant advice.
iono I think that there's going to be a lot of redundant information if the pages are not consolidated... And it'd be a pain for the creator of these pages if the information is not consolidated, and it'd be a pain to update.
Sun, 07/13/2014 - 20:30
#28
yep, a pain
Yep, it would be a pain to maintain when the game changed. Maybe we should just put this effort into improving the Gunslinger Guide instead.
Mon, 07/14/2014 - 00:21
#29
I feel like going by coverage could create problems when it comes to a select few places. Like compounds with fire + fiends + slimes. If you had to choose 2 bombs for that, you'd probably want to go with something like voltaic tempest and nitronome. If you went by coverage, you might choose something like dark briar barrage and dark retribution. While DBB + Dark rets would work well, situations that included both slimes and fiends would suffer, regardless of which bomb you had out.
It might just be easier to hand write suggestions for every single set of levels, bringing up reviews of the various weapons there. Kind of like what Pokmeon Marriland did for the Pokemon games.
http://www.marriland.com/black2_white2/walkthrough/insect-badge/4138-cas...
Marriland went through the entire game and wrote descriptions etc. of every possible decision you could make with regards to building your pokemon team. This is time consuming, but answers every single scenario perfectly. But the real thing here is that we've probably already done most of the heavy lifting and considering- it would just be a matter of putting it in order.
Suda a proper sword? I mean its main advantage over the sealed sword line is its charge attack, which can take a long time without a decent CTR, which not many first-swordies will have.
Other than that, it seems fairly solid.