Spiral Knights - Two for flinching!! (Interrupting Monster mechanics?)

Two for flinching!! (Interrupting Monster mechanics?)

41 replies [Last post]

Sun, 07/06/2014 - 14:53

Bossbane

Hey there, Bossbane here.

So, this is a mechanic that has always been really important to me, yet I can't honestly say I understand it yet:

Flinching/knockdowns. Whatever you want to call it, a well time flinch can be the difference between life and death. For those who don't know, you can deal enough damage to a monster to make them do an animation in which they are more or less helpful, either falling over or simply stopping what they were doing. How it works is what I am after!

To make things nice and neat for our spreadsheet gurus to answer, are flinches caused by any or all of:

--> Damage type (Pierce, Element, Shadow, Normal)

-->Amount of damage over time

--> Single, high DPS hits (So a Troika Special vs a Spur Combo)

--> A damage thresh-hold (You need to do X damage for a flinch -- time does not matter)

--> Type of monster (I don't think I've ever flinched a Lumber)

--> Caused ESPECIALLY by Magnus line?

This all matters, of course, because it effects the way one builds a set if they are going to be counting on causing flinches. Do you build for damage buffs to be able to save yourself and your friend from monsters with your Drivers from across the room, or do I build AS to burst a turret in the face?

One of the things I loved about having a magnus on my old account was the ability to truly lock down single monsters permenantly. Nothing brought me greater joy than singling out a devilite and cruelly shutting his attacks down again and again and again.

Thanks for the info and happy knight-ing

-Bossbane

PS -- I posted something fun titled 'Mini-Games and Content Galore!' -- give that a read if you've got the time and are interested :O)

Sun, 07/06/2014 - 15:32

Sandwich-Potato

I think it's relative to the percent of health lost in a certain amount of time. I can flinch a T2 Lumber with a Combuster charge attack followed by a combo.

Sun, 07/06/2014 - 15:34

Bossbane

My friend, a believe that T2

My friend, a believe that T2 lumber would be dead after a charge attack and combo.

-Bossbane

Sun, 07/06/2014 - 16:40

Holy-Nightmare

I think SP has it about

I think SP has it about right.

Certain weapons have flinch rates on certain hits, for most the last hit has the higher rate, bombs have a 1-2 blast flinch (2 for the shards which have crazy flinch rates) and are fairly high (even haze bombs have a chance to flinch if the enemy is in the bomb's immediate range) though it is not often noticed due to the knockback.

WHB has a good flinch on the end of its combo while every swing of the charge has a high flinch chance, (can even flinch lumbers)

Certain monsters have a higher flinch resistance (lumbers for example only flinch maybe one time during a WHB charge while Gun puppies flinch on every swing of the charge combo)

Some monsters have a higher flinch rates at certain times (mecha knight while it is charging a sword spin while homing in on you)

_________________________________________________

To sum it up every weapon has different chances on the combo and charge.

Every enemy has a natural flinch resistance to certain weapons. (which is why normal can be good)

Some enemies have certain times of higher flinch chance.

Sun, 07/06/2014 - 16:44

Bossbane

Going from that then, Holy-N,

Going from that then, Holy-N, could an Iron Slug with MAX! damage increase flinch anything and everything then? I believe with additional members, however, the flinch rate changes because the health of each monster increases (I believe?)

Thanks for the feedback,

-Bossbane

Sun, 07/06/2014 - 16:50

Bossbane

(And yes, I am trying to

(And yes, I am trying to justify making an Iron Slug before it's update -- the one that IS going to happen. Eventually. Hopefully. Rito, buff pls.)

Sun, 07/06/2014 - 21:12

Poopsie

Based on my observation.. after playing for a while....

Flinch could be only done by certain moves, such as final sword swings, mostly all charge attack with few exception (all bombs included but I doubt dark retribution works, each swing of wild hunting blade charge attack but only final swing on venom striker one, only initial alchemer charge bullet, the ricochets doesn't count), few non-charge bullets like magnus line and expanded pulsar bullets. In this case, blitz needle charge has the best flinch rate since every charge bullets counts, and no other weapons have 15 charge attacks at instant. (well technically catalyzer does) I might forget one or two, but oh well..
Let's call it "flinch moves" to differientiate "normal moves"

Flinching is built up. I meant it calculates all previous "normal moves" damage finished by "flinch moves" for a certain moment time. Your teammate damage also counts. Flinch couldn't be built down. It doesn't count any "normal moves" damage after "flinch moves" applied, not until you did "flinch moves" again.
For example, the biggest flinch moves I do with brandish is charge attack -> normal swing -> final swing, it flinches lumber, when other kind of combos couldn't flinch with the same damage bonus.

Like the other post said, the calculation most likely based on their percentage hp. When total accumulated damage suffices and your attacks finished by "flinch moves", the monster would flinch. Correct damage type helps but not neccessarily needed, for example piercing sword could flinch gremlins with combo.

Some monster types also make themselves vulnerable when charging certain attack. Example, Greaver's attack, ScuttleBot's attack, Devilite's Toss/Throw (not the Slash one), Zombie's Breath, Snarbolax when stunned. The common strategy dealing with them is usually just spam whatever attack, even throwing vials/vase will flinch them. I might forget one or two on this one as well...

Also another fun fact, I think only volcanic pepperbox charge attack could flinch giant lichen for now. (until silly gunner update).
I tried Iron Slug max damage, it flinches just fine until third party member joins, then the weapon is just sucky >_> I don't think switch shooting helps much on flinching with magnus line.

Sun, 07/06/2014 - 19:35

Bossbane

Write this down, Watson.

That was all delicious information to read. Thanks very much, Poopsie ^_^

I find it quite odd, though -- I know that I've flinched/knocked down T1 and even T2 wolvers with normal, shadowtech alchemer shots. Are their two different flinch meters, one for all attacks and one for specific, flinch inducing moves?

-Bossbane

Sun, 07/06/2014 - 19:44

Fehzor

Sometimes when you do a bunch of damage with a weapon and you hit it with the right attack then it will make the monster flinch.

Sun, 07/06/2014 - 19:46

Bossbane

For science.

Sounds like I need to run some field tests.

-Bossbane

Sun, 07/06/2014 - 20:43

#10

Bopp

this is interesting

This thread is interesting. I always assumed that certain hits (e.g. the final stroke of any sword combo) flinch with 100% chance. It would be great to get some data to tease out all of these alternative hypotheses.

Sun, 07/06/2014 - 21:34

#11

Poopsie

I am just guessing if this is what you meant...

Wolver's "bark" is included to make themselves vulnerable hence any kind of attack works.
Although alpha wolver's "bark" seems harder to flinch.
Eh well, catalyzer "multiple" charge could also flinch giant lichen too.

@Bopp: Silly example that not so worthy..... when grinding FSC elite full party member, I noticed at least med (probably low, but I never have the chance) damage on 5* full heated elemental brandish needed to flinch a zombie with full regular combo.

edit: Oiler, Quicksilver, Toxigel, Void Gel (not sure about Toxoil)'s Tackle also makes them vulnerable.
Related status effect that also makes them cancel attack are stun + shock. Mecha knights + almirian crusader are the ones I noticed canceling their attack because of these status effects.

Mon, 07/07/2014 - 06:04

#12

Holy-Nightmare

@ poopsie on DR flinch

It generally happens to me in solo parties when using Mad bomber with Bomb Med damage pet perk.

The wolver is in the radius of 3 bombs and then it flinches.

Mon, 07/07/2014 - 06:54

#13

Bopp

Poopsie

Poopsie, are you saying that in elite FSC full party, using a Combuster with damage+0, the final stroke of the combo does NOT flinch a zombie? Interesting if true.

Mon, 07/07/2014 - 07:44

#14

Dragon-Mute

bopp

I used to use a vog set with lvl 10 glacius, on a full party the combo finisher wont flinch, now with chaos it will

Mon, 07/07/2014 - 08:03

#15

Bossbane

It would appear I've sparked

It would appear I've sparked a question of interest, no? Not that I have many resources at my disposal, but I would be happy to run some tests for you guys.

-Bossbane

Mon, 07/07/2014 - 09:28

#16

Skepticraven

↓

I have definitely noticed that certain weapons cause more flinching (and anyone that has actually used the magnus lines will agree) as well as the dependence on percent HP/weapon boosts (for other weapons such as brandish lines).

Depth/Tiers should also be included in the analysis, but most people probably care about T3.
If you really want to be thorough, can also include monsters with different armor on the same depth. (Such as slimes from RJP 2nd depth - Final battle arena have increased armor compared to other areas.)

Mon, 07/07/2014 - 10:25

#17

Seiran

ohh

I don't think switch shooting helps much on flinching with magnus line.

Just an overall note, but you can spray out bullets quicker (at a time) without switch techniques. The only thing that makes switch techs desirable is that they let you avoid reloading (so yes, because of reload period, switch techniques have a higher rate of fire than no-switch), but for a single volley, it's way faster to use up your magazine.

I think it's relative to the percent of health lost in a certain amount of time

I never thought about it that way, but that would make a lot of sense, considering how things can become very difficult to flinch at deeper depths (say 25+) and larger parties.

But then would it be a specific amount for each enemy or a shared one over all?

Can you flinch a turret with a GF combo?

Mon, 07/07/2014 - 14:22

#18

Drischa

Everything I've ever seen with flinching has pointed to certain percentage of health. However it is also true that some attacks seem to have a higher flinch rate than others.

For example, on a 4 person elite party, I cannot flinch zombies with the last swing of my boltbrand combo. However, if I equip the undead high damage sprite perk, it does flinch them. Flinching is very much related to damage boost.

With my iron slug it will usually take 2 bullets to knock down a wolver, gremlin or turret. However with no damage boost and more people it actually becomes impossible for me to flinch them, and inversly while I'm alone and with more damage boost I can flinch them in one shot. This makes damage boost even more valuable, as it means you can finish a combo in confidence that you'll flinch the enemy.

4-person parties on elite, I cannot flinch alpha wolvers. at all. I did a normal difficulty tier 2 run earlier and was flinching them with sudaruska's second swing, I think with damage boost medium? (from skolver coat).

I'm pretty sure that dark retribution can knock down the tiny little gremlins with enough damage boost. I've seen it happen.

Note that some monsters are exceptions, Greavers can be inturrupted by almost anything, including dark eretirbution. This actually means that greavers are one of the much easier enemies to defeat if you know how, demonstrated greatly by these two videos.

In my opinion the earlier posts about 'flinch meters' is creative but essentially founded only on creativity. I've seen a zombie get flinched by a bunch of people shield-cancelling brandishes into its face at once because it was in a corner, no 'flinch move' there.

Mon, 07/07/2014 - 14:53

#19

Poopsie

....

GF combo to turret? definitely. Turret has one of the lower monster hp in general.

Another silly addition, gremlin knocker's reaction also makes them vulnerable.

I guess, refer to this if you want specific test numbers
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/77398#comment-684132 -> zeddy did monster health stuff.

@Drachronos
Those flinch without "flinch moves" most likely because the monsters make themselves vulnerable. Zombie goes (or going) to breath attack -> flinched by a poke, gremlin (little) knocker's "reaction" attack is also cancelable by just a poke. So it's a bit unsure ;x

Alpha wolvers is flinchable by (silly OP) blitz needle. However, I couldn't flinch the one at shadow gloaming wildwoods elite mode + full party without cheating. By cheating, I meant attack buff/flash charge >__>

Thu, 07/10/2014 - 19:48

#20

Deathunoob

lumber

I flinched a lumber with an avenger combo

Thu, 07/10/2014 - 22:55

#21

Mustado

Flinch mechanics

Every monster has a resistance to flinching that I will refer to as their "flinch meter" which is = to x% of their max hp. Whenever you do x% of their max hp in one hit they will be flinched regardless of weapon or damage type. If you fail to do x% of their hp in one hit it doesn't mean you can't flinch them because the damage you do is added to their "flinch meter" which will cause them to finch when it fills up. You can also "over flinch" an enemy if you go well past their "flinch meter" capacity. (i.e. a max damage gun build with Callahan will knock zombies down when solo on normal, but only make them stutter when in a full party)

They also have a "flinch recovery" which is how fast their "flinch meter" empties itself of the damage poured into it. (max gun damage on Callahan on elite full party you have to shoot fast enough you need to reload to flinch a zombie)

In answer to your question no iron slug can't flinch everything with max damage because trojan/lumberer have much too high hp to flinch with that weapon. However volcanic pepper box should flinch anything with its charge on a max damage build.

Fri, 07/11/2014 - 16:28

#22

Drischa

So basically you have to take offa certain percentage of their health bar within a certain amount of time... oh look, that's already been said! Without the use of the term 'flinch meter', which just makes it more complicated!

The zombie was not doing anything. It just got flinched by normal attacks, because those normal attacks took off enough health in a certain amount of time that it flinched.

Gremlin knocker attack animations can't be inturrupted by pokes, the first swing of sudaruska won't knock them down.

We need zeddy dang it

Fri, 07/11/2014 - 16:58

#23

Bopp

people just need to support their arguments with evidence

People just need to support their arguments with evidence from tests. The tests should be designed to distinguish between the poster's theory and alternative theories.

For example, if the claim is that a certain rate of damage causes monsters to flinch, then the poster would ideally give an example where hitting the monster at a certain rate doesn't cause flinching, but hitting the monster at a faster rate does. And this post should include all of the details: which weapon, what level of damage bonus, what depth, what monster, etc.

I'm suspicious of the claims so far. Why does the WHB charge flinch monsters more than the DVS charge, when the DVS charge does at least as much damage?

Fri, 07/11/2014 - 18:19

#24

Krakob

Other examples:
-Iron Slug vs a lot of things with higher damage
-Hitting with only the last hit of a sword combo will often interrupt

My theory is that all attacks have an interrupt value, which is affected by damage boosts and reductions. That would explain why some attacks have higher interruption but lower damage than others, in addition to why poison affects interruption.

Fri, 07/11/2014 - 18:31

#25

Fehzor

@Bopp Exactly. I can support my argument.

Fri, 07/11/2014 - 23:31

#26

Poopsie

There

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv4G1rlNhbU
me poke flinching those monsters at elite difficulty tier 3 (except that I am lazy to search scuttlebots)

@Drachronos
what I meant... while your party members were brutally poking the monster. One of you guys may "poke flinching" them without realizing it, since the monster doesn't have time to show the animation when they've started to attack something like Zombie's Breath or Knocker's Reaction.

@Bopp
It's just as simple as...
all WHB charge swings is considered like final swings.
However, DVS charge swings is considered regular swings except the last one.
and.. too lazy to record video where I have to collaborate with 3 other players to show damage meter + flinch + damage bonus thingy, sorry >__>

Fri, 07/11/2014 - 20:13

#27

Bopp

I don't get it

Poopsie, as far as I can skim, you support the idea that flinching is based solely on damage output (per time). But WHB/DVS seem to refute this hypothesis, since DVS does at least as much damage per hit, and hits faster, and sometimes inflicts poison. What do final swings have to do with it, if it's based on damage? Please clarify.

Fehzor, I acknowledge posts #8 and #25.

Fri, 07/11/2014 - 23:12

#28

Poopsie

...

Just repeating the same theory, sorry for the confusion >__>
Say... there're two categories of attack (ignoring the poke-flinch that I showed), "regular attack" and "flinch attack"
"Regular attack" will not flinch the monster, no matter how frequent and big your attacks damage are (except poke-flinch case). Regular attack is all sword swings except final swing and all non-charge handgun bullets attack except expanded pulsar bullet + magnus line. However, in short period (which needed to be tested how exactly), regular attack will add damage output.
"Flinch attack" will flinch the monster when the total damage output needed to flinch suffices. If not, the monster won't be flinched but it will also add the damage output given that same short period. "Flinch attack" is mostly all charge attack (there's some complicated cases like DVS, WHB, alchemer), final/last sword swings, expanded pulsar bullet, magnus bullet, explosive blocks.

tl;dr

DVS charge combo: regular, regular, regular regular, flinch attack.
WHB charge combo: flinch, flinch, flinch, flinch, flinch attack.
DVS charge only check if the monster could be flinched at final swing. First combos adds the damage output, no flinch check.
While WHB charge checks if the monster could be flinched every swing. This shows well on Gremlins since they are one of the lower hp monster category. I am not sure if this is intended by developers though.

Sat, 07/12/2014 - 04:42

#29

Krakob

WHB doesn't have that many flinch attacks, though. It only flinches with the third (or fourth?) blow in addition to the last hit.

Sat, 07/12/2014 - 05:40

#30

Bopp

Poopsie

So Poopsie, to clarify: You do not support the theory that flinching is based solely on damage output. Rather, you think that flinching is based on damage output and a predetermined flinch-vs.-non-flinch capability on the attack. Only if sufficient damage has been done, AND the attack in question is labeled "can flinch", will the monster flinch.

Sat, 07/12/2014 - 05:45

#31

Zeddy

Flinching appears to have a lot of factors. Now before I say anything else, I would like to preemptively state that I've got no data to support any of this. Everything I'm about to say is a hypothesis.

As far as I can tell, Poopsie is on to something. I imagine flinching depends on three factors:

Current flinch build-up.
Attack flinchability
Target flinchability

In reverse order:
Target flinchability
Is actually two factors: Ease and Punishment. Neither of these are set in stone for an enemy, and will vary depending on the enemy's state.
Ease seem to come in these degrees:

Trivial: Almost anything will flinch this, including proto gun at depth 28. Examples of trivial flinches are diving greavers, comboing mecha knights, breathing zombies, and player knights.
Regular: Will flinch with sufficient flinch build-up when hit with a flinch attack. Most enemies use this model most of the time.
Unflinchable: I am unsure if this state exists. I believe T3 zombies are unflinchable except during breath and jump attacks. Other enemies I suspect to fall under this category are T3 lumbers, Almirian Crusaders, Phantoms, and Mecha Knights. However, these could all just be really hard to flinch due to their high health.

Punishment also comes in two flavours:

Cancel: Simply cancels the monster's current animation and their ability to do attack for a very short time. A very typical cancel enemy is the gun puppy. You'll notice if you time your flinch attacks too quickly, you won't be able to stop their next attack. The effect of a cancel is hardly noticable, if at all, if not inflicted during an attack.
Knockdown: The enemies gets knocked on their butts and suffer a long recovery animation. Typical with 'soft-bodied' enemies such as wolvers and gremlins. Jumping zombies, early-tier zombies, and comboing Mecha Knights all suffer knockdown.

Attack Flinchability

Nonexistant. Damage from fire and drakon's flame barrier are afflicted with this puny amount of flinchability. They cannot flinch monsters at all. Knights will still suffer charge reduction from them.
Regular: Your typical sword swing or gun shot. Can flinch enemies with trivial flinch resistance.
Flinch attack: Will flinch the target given sufficient flinch build-up. This is most charge attacks including every bomb, and the final swing in combos. Other noteworthy flinch attacks include Magnus-line shots. While unique, I believe the devs heavily overestimated how useful that'd be for all the drawbacks they gave this line.

Flinch buildup
Still largely a mystery. We suspect these things:

Buildup is directly tied to damage. When this buildup reaches a certain percentage of an enemy's current max health, they will get flinched by a flinch attack.
How large is this percentage? I don't know!
Is this percentage the same for all enemies? I don't know!
How exactly does the flinch build up over time? I don't know!

What do I mean by that last question? I can think of three general models.

Winddown
Instant fade
Stacking

So that's my two cents on the matter, I suppose. If I were out in the field doing science on flinching, I'd start by some sort of combination on finding the flinching model and the flinching percentage for some sort of enemy. Most likely gremlins, since their flinch effect is so obvious.

Unfortunately, I have neither the time nor the will to dive into this myself these days.

Sat, 07/12/2014 - 07:03

#32

Poopsie

...

@Bopp Yes, I do not support the theory that flinching is based solely on damage output.

@Krakob https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6kYreTTw9U -> each time the WHB charge combo connects, it knocks down the gremlin exacty one time. This was done at advanced difficulty (pre-big update). When you feel that only third + final does flinch, I think it's because damage output is not enough.

@Zeddy good job x__x I wouldn't be able to post in nice organized + good english post.
The unflinchable part, I saw Giant Lichen and Royal Jelly (King) (biggest hp pools) got flinched alright. Snarbolax is easily got flinched due the bell mechanic, Roar by default is always knockdown-ed. The only one that I never saw flinched is Vanaduke. So the option is not that much. Also, funny how royal jelly hp divided into 3 full hp, one for every phase, but vanaduke has one huge full hp in body phases, and one distinct hp bar for each mask phase. Phantom Knights... I saw it canceling the attack, without any reaction like what normally zombie does though. Almirian Crusader has knockdown animation, just like mecha knight.

Sat, 07/12/2014 - 06:11

#33

Krakob

That sounds probable, yes. I mostly play on elite and often in groups so I don't tend to take note of things that only happen in easier difficulties/smaller parties.

Sat, 07/12/2014 - 08:15

#34

Holy-Nightmare

I have been playing around

I have been playing around with a Pepperbox lately and I have to say that it is similar to the WHB in the fact that it has a great flinch on the charge.

Sun, 07/13/2014 - 20:52

#35

Sandwich-Potato

I've flinched T3 zombies, Crusaders, and Mecha Knights with the Blitz Needle/Volcanic Pepperbox.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 06:57

#36

Fireofearth

While working in the FSC,

While working in the FSC, full party on elite, I've managed to flinch trojans reliably with the final hit of a grand flourish. Slag Walkers, however, are a real pain. For me, they seem to flinch on the first final hit you do, but a second final hit from a second combo that follows immediately will NOT flinch these zombies.

I've felt the pain firsthand.. T-T

Sat, 07/19/2014 - 04:48

#37

Drischa

Ok, I'll admit, I was probably wrong.

The theory I Was thinking is somewhat similar to the third buildup theory that Zeddy listed.

@poopsie
The only one that I never saw flinched is Vanaduke.
With my savage tortoise and OBS I vow that I shall fix that for you someday.
I flinched him on a 4-person party, where everyone else had died.
I promise. He did a weird twitch animation, much like zombies.

EDIT: Most other game companies would show off their fine programming work rather than leave us here scratching our heads.
I'm honestly not sure which I prefer.

Sat, 07/19/2014 - 20:27

#38

Fe-Tarkus

S3 Elite Polyps (uhhh all of them were Solo I believe... not exactly sure)
2 Wrench Wand first strikes + Magnus >>> flinched Polyp (approx 140 + 14 damage)
3 Wrench Wand first strikes + Magnus >>> flinched Polyp (approx 210 + 14 damage)
4 Wrench Wand first strikes + Magnus >>> flinched Polyp (approx 280 + 14 damage)
I don't recall exact situations with using the full combo of the Wrench Wand, but it's sad. I know for sure in S4 or so, the Wrench Wand combo fails to interrupt Gremlin Thwackers... I'll combo them and get a hammer to the face... I don't know the specifics of when it stops to flinch or what, because I don't trust it.
EDIT: I barely don't kill Wolvers in D10 with a full combo from my fully heated Wrench Wand, and they don't get staggered... so bs.

But with the application of a Magnus, a polyp will flinch.
-----------------------------------------
Ignore above conjecture, not really relevant to what I think I figured out about flinching... forewarning mostly raw data below...

EDIT: Elite Solo
D10 Alpha Wolver (this guy had no extra damage resistance from regular wolvers, D10 Alpha Wolvers at Wolver Den party button have taken 62 and 58 damage instead and don't get staggered with 1 Magnus charge)
1 Magnus attack = 73 damage, no flinch
4 Wrench Wand strikes = 264 damage, no flinch
4 Wrench Wand strikes + Magnus = 264 + 73 damage, flinched
1 Wrench Wand strike + Magnus = 64 + 73 damage, flinched
1 Magnus charge attack = 140 odd damage, flinched
(Was trying to test if flinching can be extended by finding an enemy for which I needed 3-4 hits from a sword, then a Magnus shot to stagger it. Then if I could slow down my strikes and it still gets staggered with the Magnus, that means that each hit resets whatever countdown system they have. Seems like I need to use a Proto Sword or something instead of this Wrench Wand)

D10 Alpha Wolver (some extra damage resistance)
1 Magnus attack = 62 damage, no flinch
1 Magnus charge attack = 129 damage, no flinch
4 Wrench Wand strikes + 2 Magnus shots = 184 + 124 damage, no flinch
I couldn't flinch this guy with base lvl 10 Wrench Wand and Magnus... Gotta bring my Flourish or something...
I wonder what kind of format they use when a full Vile Striker combo will stagger an enemy. If you missed a hit or so, you'd fail to stagger.

D10 Alpha Wolver (same as ^)
Flourish strike and finisher = 84 + 102 >> 186 damage, flinch
1 Flourish strike + 1 Magnus shot = 84 + 62 >> 146 damage, no flinch
2 Flourish strikes + 1 Magnus shot = 168 + 62 >> 230 damage, no flinch
4 Flourish strikes + 2 Magnus shots = 336 + 124 >> 456 damage, no flinch
1 Magnus charge + 1 Magnus shot = 129 + 62 >> 191 damage, no flinch

D10 Alpha Wolver (^ DB med)
no change for above tests aside from extra damage... :| decided to not record values because I thought they didn't matter at the time...
But I went back afterwards to get the values... as they would help
1 Flourish strike + 1 Magnus shot = 94 + 70 >> 164 damage, no flinch
2 Flourish strikes + 1 Magnus shot = 188 + 70 >> 258 damage, no flinch
4 Flourish strikes + 2 Magus shots = 376 + 140 damage >> 516 damage, no flinch
1 Magnus charge = 142 damage, no flinch

D10 Alpha Wolver (^ DB very high)
1 Magnus charge = 155 damage, no flinch
1 Flourish strike + 1 Magnus shot = 103 + 78 >> 181 damage, flinch
2 Flourish strikes + 1 Magnus shot = 206 + 78 >> 284 damage, flinch.
2 Magnus shots = 156 damage, no flinch

Flourish strikes then Magnus shots would only flinch the slight-extra-damage-resistant Alpha Wolver when the sum of the strike and shot were above the "flinch threshold". This also applies to the regular Alpha Wolver with the Wrench Wand. (Would only stagger with more strikes if it could already stagger with only one strike).

tl;dr: Theory: For flinching, enemies only takes into account the last hit that it received if the player switches weapons.
notes: If the previous attack and the gun didn't stagger the enemy, then the flinch reset or something. Need to test things with my Cutter to be more sure about this theory.

random things...
o.o didn't know regular Alpha Wolvers had that trail of fur behind them... never noticed...
... almost died because I accidentally threw a pot at a Shankle as it was moving along a wall, and it changed direction towards me when it tinked... fml

Sat, 07/19/2014 - 22:10

#39

Fe-Tarkus

Was not able to get Flourish finisher to connect with Magnus shot, perhaps ASI problem or combo reset.

D9 regular Alpha Wolver
(Weapon X + lvl 10 Magnus shot)
Cutter lvl 10: 35/19 + 71 flinch
Big Beast Basher lvl 1: 21 + 71 flinch
Super Slime Slasher lvl 1 or 2: 19 + 71 no flinch
Super Slime Slasher lvl 3: 20 + 71 flinch
Cutter disregards ghost swing for flinch calculation when switching weapons. Multiple cutter swings do not add to the flinch value when switching. Cutter charge to Magnus shot was ineffective against the D10 semi-resistant Alpha Wolver. The threshold for Alpha Wolvers at d9 for non seems to be 90 or 91... weird how that worked out perfectly to find that value... Either this is true or there's some wonky system where a 19 of the Cutter has increased damage in comparison to the 19 of the Super Slime Slasher.

random things
Did not know that there was a room that was the size of a 5 treasure box room, and only has 2 golden shankles + a button for the door to pass...
First floor of Frostifur Fandango is On the Hunt... most definitely was I on the hunt for damn Alpha Wolvers... why did I choose that floor the second time around... they don't reliably spawn q.q
Fe-Tarkus is tired... I'm not sure what he is doing anymore.

Sun, 07/20/2014 - 05:15

#40

Kraanx

As an Iron Slug owner with

As an Iron Slug owner with Gremlin: high and an equal sprite perk , i must say that every shot i land on a gremlin makes them go breakdancing. however, my gun isnt fully heated and i havent tested it after d24 on gremlins yet

Mon, 07/21/2014 - 04:47

#41

Arelic

Just to mention, when I have the following items at the same time:

Winmillion (Win)

Wild Hunting Blade (WHB)

Swift Strike Buckler

I try to make full use of that combo before the monster's attack animation follows through completely. I am not as successful with the WHB so on occasion I may dance out of the way with two additional slashes instead of displacing the enemy AI by shield cancelling, which can be more disrupting to my objective than it needs to be. But that lack of success comes with the fact that my assault might have began a split second after it was prompted to attack me. However, my win brings me up to speed, causing smaller creatures to flinch along with its little bit of knock back. So the Win is to get me space and time and the WHB is to do higher DPS to sturdier enemies.

@Kraanx: With anything beyond D24, you will have to work twice as hard to flinch them. As a fellow Iron Slug user, I should know.

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Two for flinching!! (Interrupting Monster mechanics?)