Spiral Knights - On Sparks and why something must change

On Sparks and why something must change

48 replies [Last post]

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 12:14

Autofire

Sparks are causing a problem. But before I continue ranting, let me describe myself as a player in two sentences:

I am a beta player who has played this as my first MMO. Although I have put down the game from time to time, I have always returned later, and the game is usually just as fun as ever.

Now, however, there is something stopping me from returning, and that is Sparks of Life. Why?

I don't have enough. "What!? You're the worst Beta player in the game!" Not so. I insist on using weapons I find 'fun'. No, not weapons you find the best or what you find fun. The ones which I like using because they're awesome. That includes DVS, Callahan, BAB, Rock Salt, Lionheart, and Catalyzer, to list a few. Because of this, I play a bit more aggressively, and if I'm brushed up and not rusty, I can make it through 30-50 levels between deaths.

The bold part is important. I cannot get back into the game because those hard events sapped my Sparks. I cannot live long enough to get more sparks, and tend to get tired of playing the easy levels/difficulties before I can get enough skill again to play without dieing.

"Why don't you just not return to Haven?" I don't know. I tend to feel defeated and crushed. It also gets boring to re-run the same thing again. Have you played Megaman and insisted on going to the beginning of 3+ levels after dieing? Probably not.

"Why don't you buy more Sparks?" I've probably spent 1k energy on Sparks. No, it doesn't help because I burn them up.

"What about your E-Rev?" The problem is that this is too accessible. In particularly sticky situations, I might activate my barriers and rush into the crowd. I usually can take the crowd down, but I lose my E-Rev in the process. Other times, I do treat it as another life, but it can still be lost and then I can die again.

And I'm the least of my concern, if that makes sense. What about those new players that have a hard time with the game? They'll stop playing if they run out of sparks, since they'll be, effectively, forced to pay or beg other players. The first won't happen unless the player is committed to the game, and the second is downright bad.

No, this doesn't concern players with 1k+ sparks, since those players are already so good/crutched that it never effects them. (I say crutched because these players often have Triple MAX UVs on all their gear and grind FSC until it becomes second nature. I'm neither of those.)

If you found that too long, simply put: I'm playing the game the way the developers want their players to play. (I think?) However, I'm running into a constant drought with the Sparks. My actual suggestion for fixing it will go in the suggestions forums, since this is more just my story to back it up.

EDIT: This is the change I propose.

Discuss. Am I just a baby? Or do you agree? Do you see something wrong, and why?

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 12:26

Turn-Me-On

Sounds like you just need

Sounds like you just need some practice, that's all! Also, unless its a shadow lair, there's nothing wrong with returning to haven and starting over.

Your point about new players is a good one though. Even on normal, miissions such as jelly king can get challenging. I have been spoiled by chaos brandish spam and max damage, and FSC in 25 mins on elite? Pfft, any vanguard can do that.

But take away the experience (newb time) , the ctr max (hello 3 second charge time), the damage max (hello 25% damage decrease), the heated weapons (hello 40% damage decrease), the defense (hello paper armor), and suddenly those jellies become a lot more intimidating.

Experience and some of the other points comes from
Playtime, but you can't get better if you keep getting rekt by the same enemy. Save the newbs!

On the flip side, this may be OOO's business plan, so who knows.

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 13:14

Mtax-Forum

No offence, but...

You seem to be bad player. No, seriously, the bad part is this: "In particularly sticky situations, I might activate my barriers and rush into the crowd. I usually can take the crowd down, but I lose my E-Rev in the process."
Playing kamikaze is shooting yourself into foot while you have no sparks. First of all info you need to save into yourself: From today being kamikaze sucks - don't do it.
Personally I go everywhere in Chaos set with Combuster, BTB, Acheron, Polaris and SSB. Chaos is glass cannon, but those all weapons are all defensive and deadly in one time. You might should try this combination too, because spamming few Combuster charges (while it charges in less than second) from safe distance is A LOT more effective than barrier that risks your life. DVS and Lionheart can be also very useful with CTR.

Try learning to dodge, attack-dodge, dodging by dash in proper method (I mean that dash makes you invicible while you dashing - if you will dash into bullet, you will get no damage. Most of players seem to not know about it). Perhaps you also should try playing without shield (though avoid freeze levels or you may get stuck in that way).

Also you should get some friends that play well, because in good team everything is easy, even newbie can survive Danger mission without being dead. If you want, you can add me and do some arcade runs and get few tips maybe. :p
...I think we both can get something from it.

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 13:15

Seiran

Teamwork

@OP:
Have you tried playing with teammates?

Like actually playing near them or supporting them with guns?

----

It sounds a bit sarcastic, but even before the spark system patch, I often wondered if doing things (at the very least) in pairs was quicker (ex: instead of 4 people splitting up and soloing every room in FSC, splitting into two pairs, so monsters die quicker with teamwork), but never found people who didn't want to solo.

Now that staying alive is important (for the spark reason you base this thread on), I've often argued that because death is a harsher punishment now, that players should be more supportive and team-centered in their playstyles in-game, but instead find that people will rather split up, solo in the same party, then game over on their own.

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 13:47

Changonanak

Teamwork in FSC

While I do understand where the OP is coming from, and agree that sparks cost too much energy at the moment, I also agree with parts of Seiran's arguement.

For example, before I even had access to the mission FSC, I ran it often on Elite wearing 4* gear with other 4* Defender Elites. Sure, it took a while, but when we actually worked as a team, we managed to make it out with maybe 1 person using a SOL. The rest only ever used their E-Revs, because nobody died that much when we worked together.

Back to the OP's point though, with the crowns to energy exchange rate at about 7k per 100E, with 10 Sparks of Life costing 200E, that equates to about 2 Vana runs for 10 Sparks. It seems this either leads players to buy energy (which OOO needs to stay profitable) or endless farming of Vanaduke (which OOO likely did not intend). In casual play without intense farming, obtaining Sparks of Life would be a major time investment. This effect amplifies if one stockpiles sparks for Shadow Lair Runs, in which case returning to Haven is a huge waste of energy.

Another issue I have is the method in which sparks are bought in battle. If you are in a safe area, then sparks cost 200E for 10 in the Supply Depot. If you are out of Sparks during a mission though, you must pay 50E to revive. While it seems reasonable at first, because the player should have prepped and bought Sparks beforehand, there would be no consequences to letting players buy Sparks at standard price in battle. While I do not claim to know OOO's exact finances, I doubt that this price increase for sparks in battle is a large source of income for them. I see no reason in keeping it.

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 14:10

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

@Mtax

I should have clarified: I usually only do kamikaze on the final room of an Arena, on the final wave. I am just saying how disposable those E-Revs are. (At least, that's how they used to feel, when I wasn't so rusty.)

And listen: I know how to dodge. It's that DVS rewards you for cutting it closer than other weapons. I know about the dash invincibility thing; I was one of the first ones on the testing server to use it. I use it all the time, actually. I can get to turrets 100% easier now. Turrets aren't my problem, though.

I know my stuff. I just can't use it all the time. I have a lot of time on my play record. My problem isn't lack of knowledge; it's lack of un-rustyness. I use DVS 80% of the time. It may seem dumb but...hey, some people used to use the old Shard bombs all the time because they loved them. I can give the DVS some (excessive levels of) love, right?

@Seiran

If you're read my favorite weapon list, I cannot go in parties well. That being said, I still DO go in parties lately. It's okay unless I happen to die, which is rare. But if it happens, it's more embarrassing because I'm like "Welp, I'm done."

That being said, I do have plenty of team support weapons, and I'm working on getting a few more. It's just that my favored play style doesn't agree with party members, and it's the fact that I can play like that which makes this so fun. It's just thrilling to be dicing things up and then jump away and finish with a gun.

@Changonanak

I won't farm FSC. Flat. Never. No. (But that's not your point.)

@All

Also, now that I think about it, I have been going back to Haven after dieing. Then quitting. :S

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 14:58

Bopp

sympathize

Your desire to use seldom-used weapons is admirable. And I know that you've been around for a while. But you have three goals:
* use some fun but bad weapons
* never buy Sparks of Life
* play in a casual, off-and-on, perhaps reckless manner.
It seems to me that you have to give up one of these goals. Two out of three isn't bad.

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 15:21

Seiran

?__?

redacted most of my post, cause TL;DR

Anyway, if you're rusty, playing aggressively is probably not a good idea. I remember coming back from a year hiatus and trying to be all swiftstrike heavy swordsman valkyrie in FSC. I had to break out my old dragonscale shield :3

My tortofists understand your pain though. I'm one to try to master their normal attacks, and it they've left me burned to a crisp and slashed down the face way too many times ;_;

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 15:22

Flowchart

I'm usually like that as long as I have my ER, I end up often being the first one to use it since I'm screwing around or being over aggressive, but I back off once I've used it (this doesn't mean playing like a "survivor" or whatever, just not being crazy)

I can understand wanting to screw around with DVS though.. I often do that in T1 but you can play carefully with it as well.

PS to @Seiran: I find going in pairs works well in UFSC. Not so much in regular since everyone's used to doing them solo. But then in SL you are not usually with random people who leave as soon as they run out of sparks.

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 16:55

Magnicth

I know exactly what you mean,

I know exactly what you mean, OP. I love the underused weapons and love to use them, but in the end, they are usually harder to use effectively, and usually end up getting me killed more often than compared to, let's say, spamming my glacius/acheron or my polaris/blitz needle. And after the tortodrone event, I have exactly 0 sparks left, and can't afford to buy more (I'm eternally broke.) I also tend to stay solo, as I've had some pretty bad experiences in random parties, but I do occasionally join a party. I know all the attack patterns and when to dodge and how, but I can get a bit reckless, which is part of the problem: the Spark system isn't quite meant for every playstyle. With how much energy 10 sparks cost, that's equivalent to 2 fsc runs, in which time, somebody could easily burn through at least 5 sparks if they accidentally get a bit to reckless, or make a few mistakes. Now, somebody who is extremely careful and precise is less likely to have that problem, but not everybody plays like that. That's how I see it.

@Seiran: I know exactly how you feel. Those tortoguns are not easy to use. I keep on focusing on trying to master the normal attack of my grand tortofist, thinking that it might eventually seem better than it really is, but 8 times out of 10, it gets me killed, at which point I either just switch to a different weapon or just spam the charge.

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 18:22

#10

Fehzor

IDK, I use the same list of hipstery weapons as you do, and I have a few hundred sparks extra. But then before the spark changes etc. I carried people all the time to get heat, so I'm used to surviving and getting the job done. I have way more hours in game than I am proud of though, and I do see your point when it comes to non-awesome players that don't flirt with Bopp-

"And I'm the least of my concern, if that makes sense. What about those new players that have a hard time with the game? They'll stop playing if they run out of sparks, since they'll be, effectively, forced to pay or beg other players. The first won't happen unless the player is committed to the game, and the second is downright bad."

So yes, I agree with you in part, OP. The spark system could really be changed in some way-- not reverted back to how it was, but changed in some way like you suggested.

I don't know that your crusade against the "mainstream weapons" is justified in the least though. Its possible to not make a distinction between them, and just use the hipstery weapons for what they are good at as well. Rigadoon is good as a counter to grievers, dread venom striker is amazing when you're up against a ton of high priority targets, like on fiend/slime compounds. No one is forcing you to play stupidly with your dread venom striker.

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 19:43

#11

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

@Bopp, Serian, Flowchart

You are probably right. I have been acquiring more, safe weapons, such as Ash of Agni, Gran Faust, Obsidian Carbine, and the Flamberge. However, it just frustrates me that I cannot play the way I want to, at least at first. Sure, I might be impatient, but...well, maybe that is my problem. I'm not sure.

I will let you know that I was playing this game almost exclusively, but not lately since the only computer which runs SK is often busy and my own projects get in the way. I guess it's me just wanting to be like that again, which is killing me. :S

But my main point still stands: That this system isn't forgiving towards those players who run low. The main way to get Sparks is through playing the game, but it's harder to play the game without Sparks.

@Fehzor

I suppose you are right, having an objective like that. I am not saying, though, that I'm forcing myself to use the DVS, but more that I just...love using it. It is a thrill and probably my favorite thing in the game. Once or twice I thought, "I really want to play Spiral Knights so I can use my DVS again." However, I am not afraid to swap it out, and am often doing this, particularly in the harder levels.

I used to be like "NO BRANDISHES! NO SHIVERS! NO BLITZES!" These days, though, I only get weapons which I think I'll have fun using, rather than what isn't the norm. This is mainly why I don't use Pulsars and Brandishes, because they only succeed in separating you from the danger and the challenge. While, from time to time, I may feel negative towards them, I am trying not to.

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 19:50

#12

Fangel

Sounds like you need to master the cutter a bit more

If you're low on sparks I would say start your own party then play solo. People may join you that can help lighten the load of enemies, and overall make life easier.

But at the same time I don't think you're using the cutter correct. I've found that the best tactic with a cutter is to run in, hack and slash for about a second then back up and come in from another angle, trying to bait the enemy to attack. To make use of the charge attack, you need to back up and let the enemy walk into you, or bait it to attack and sidestep then unleash your venomous/beastly fury. What you do NOT want to do with a cutter is run headstrong into a mob of enemies, as that will get you downed.

However I do feel your concern for newer players who may be turned off by the whole system, but remember that they will usually be:
A) on normal difficulty
B) be running through the missions, which award many sparks of life for them to use.

Newer players are more stunted by hall of heroes than sparks of life, but that doesn't make sparks of life not have an issue on their own. I've left a comment on your suggestion that might help model a solution. :)

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 20:12

#13

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

I've replied to that comment.

Also, I don't usually run headlong into mobs. I guess I'm not painting the right idea at all. I always gun down large mobs. On single enemies, I dance around them using the forward push. You can dance away, too, but I prefer going around and sticking close. I only cannot do this on Mechaknights, because their attacks are 360.

And, yes, I do use the charge the way you say. ;)

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 20:46

#14

Klipik-Forum

Wb Auto

I've run into the same problem as you, not because I took breaks from the game but because I had enough that I didn't need to grind out Clockworks runs anymore. Right at the beginning of the first Apocrea event when they cut off the SoL drop rate drastically, I had 115 sparks. By the end of the Torto event in February (so 4 months), I had gone from 115 sparks to 5. I attribute this to a combination of the lowered drop rate causing you to have to play for longer sessions to actually raise your spark count, and my relative boredom with the stagnation of new content leading to me rushing through levels to get what I wanted or even just get through them, so I died more. But overall the game doesn't support drop-in, drop-out play that's F2P sustainable.

What would happen if they, say, doubled the drop rate of sparks in Green boxes only? Something like that would benefit people who play less often more, since they have a higher chance of finding sparks in the course of normal gameplay. At the same time, it wouldn't increase the number found by people who do more intense grinding as much - Arenas, FSC, SL's, etc. Maybe to compensate red boxes could drop more cr and other rarities, or something. Probably not the best idea but it seems like something, maybe. Food for thought, I guess?

Or maybe, the solution (for me at least) is just to somehow be more interested in the game. If I cared more, was more invested, had an actual reason to go into the CW other than just to get cr and rarities - if there was some type of more intrinsic reward to actually playing, so that CW running was playing, not grinding - maybe I would die less, and get sparks more. But even then, having the drop rate for Sparks (and other rarities too, orbs and fire crystals) be low enough to make it "balanced" as OOO sees it is not a comfortable rate to play. You know the real value of Orbs, Sparks and Crystals - certainly not 700CE for 50 Radiants, and TBH 20CE per Spark seems a bit high too - and to find those things at the rate you do, well, it's just too rare. You don't feel gratified when you get a "rare"-ity because of its rarity, you feel dejected every 299 boxes you open and find nothing but cr, mats, and heat. The small feeling of "oh finally, I got something kinda useful even though it's not really worth all this time I spent finding it" is nowhere near enough to counterbalance the effort and time it takes to get to that point.

I'm rambling now. The point I think I'm trying to make is, rarities are overpriced, whether you go looking for them from drops or buying them in the Depot. And because of that, the entire game often feels slow, plodding and overall less fun than it would be if the drop rates were higher and the game had more (as in quantity) engaging content to compensate.

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 21:27

#15

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

@Klipik

I feel for ya. I wouldn't have this problem if they released more stuff and/or just made things more interesting. Maybe more randomness? Maybe having multiple elevators down, or adding secrets that weren't tied to obvious tiles?

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 21:54

#16

Fastdinoturtle

1 problem

Ah you see the whole reason they removed hp revs because of the FSC BLITZ NEEDLE SOOPER DOOPER SKOLVER CLONE SUICIDE BOMBERS. They said that. On the other half,I agree 80% to you.

Mon, 08/11/2014 - 21:54

#17

Fastdinoturtle

1 problem

Ah you see the whole reason they removed hp revs because of the FSC BLITZ NEEDLE SOOPER DOOPER SKOLVER CLONE SUICIDE BOMBERS. They said that. On the other half,I agree 80% to you.

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 02:08

#18

Xxpapaya

The papaya giggles

First of all, +1 to the idea.
Truth be told, I'm quite sure I've never found a Spark of Life, and thats something since I've spent a cray cray amount of time grinding FSC (Used to do anywhere between 2-3 runs a day). What I really hate about the game right now, is how you are unable to help other players out (And I've said this many times already) other than giving them SoLs. Waaay too many times have I encountered missions where they are mostly composed of a "run-hit-die, repeat" pattern, the Apocrea being one of them.

Part of this has to do with my incompetency as a Nitronome and Shivermister Buster bomber I guess, but when you have new players (like my brother), falling into the same trap, it heavily dissuades them from continuing the game. When you find 2 haunted auras in 2 consecutive prize boxes but not one SoL in 100000 green/red box thing magigs, it means something.

Also, @Klipik@ made a good point on rarities being over priced, I don't want to spend the money I made from FSC buying energy to buy SoLs D:

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 11:17

#19

Carbonjinxmesa

You have a point, Auto

I do almost the same thing: I use what is fun. And lose sparks in doing so [I started in March 2012, so I'm not a Beta player, though(Nor am I a noobie)]. Sure, I will spam hammer, Volty, and Pola, but they are genuinely fun weapons to use, if you use them the way I use them. In my opinion, the best way to use an OP weapon is to use it the fun way, even if it might not be the most effect. And on the topic of UVs: I have singles on everything but my Pola, which has Undead High, Fiend Low, and Construct Low. Glass-Cannoning: I quite frankly HATE glass-cannoning (other than in LD, but this has nothing to do with LD). I use Black Kat Cowl, and I have found that those status weaknesses are a pain. Usually when I use BKC (which is almost always :P) I have the Sprite perk for whatever the status theme of the level is. Although, I have to admit, I neglect that on beast levels, and sometimes on slime levels, because I'm so darn good. I saw your other thread about the mist-spark thingy, and I total agree. A lot of the time, I wish mist-stuff like that still existed.

~Monoxide

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 11:17

#20

Carbonjinxmesa

You have a point, Auto

~Monoxide

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 12:16

#21

Fangel

Umm...

1. I quite frankly HATE glass-cannoning
2. Usually when I use BKC (which is almost always :P)

DOES NOT COMPUTE.

But I've always played this game for fun. I've pretty much always used an acheron because it fulfilled my shadow weapon needs(before the buffs too), and I rarely ever run in an offensive-gear loadout. (Exception here being the royal jelly palace. Slime family is coated in anti-fangel sauce, but even then I still bring along my DVS)
I play the arcade for fun and always have. I still find an occasional boss run fun, so I'll do that when I feel like it. The only thing I don't find fun in this game is obliterating everything that looks at me funny, and that's pretty much how 75% of end-game players play this game.

A good refreshing way to remember how the game plays I've found is to grab a full normal-weapon loadout, armor of choice (non-damage boosting), then start an open party in tier 1. People who don't know how the game works will join in and it becomes quite a bit more fun, especially if you play the game protecting the newbies rather than destroying the enemies.

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 13:12

#22

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Strange thing happened when I logged on today: The first 4* item I leveled up gave me a Forge Prize Box. I got a set of 8 Sparks of Life. I don't think it's just a coincidence...

@Carbonjinxmesa

I agree about the glass cannons. (But I don't really know why you'd use BKC...) I actually got the Iron Valkyre Helmet (The one from the Shadow Lairs) because I wanted something for countering Fiends that gave good armor and global Fiend Damage Increase. :P

@Fangel

I do play with Normal weapons, not because they're less effective but because it means that I can use the same weapon throughout the level. It seriously depends, though. I'm more likely to take a normal damage sword into Beast areas because I prefer to sword the occasional Jelly, and then a piercing gun because I rarely gun Jellies.

To that last point, I usually wouldn't do that because it makes it so the noob doesn't have much fun learning. That's why I usually take gear appropriate for the tier, or sometimes worse gear than normal, just so that the player still gets some chance to shine.

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 13:56

#23

Fangel

Oh for sure

I love to find viable tactics that are underused. Have you tried switchshooting a callahan + a DVS at close range? It's beautiful on wolvers, and I can stunlock them reliably when alone. I can't wait for the iron slug buff to try this out on other enemy types.

And my problem is that I don't have any low-tier weapons or armor, and I pretty much hate my choice of proto armor, so I'm not wearing that. (Still waiting on being able to choose proto armor again. :I)

But you've made your point already that it isn't your playstyle that's wrong, it's how sparks are handled. Missions give out free sparks of life early on, but having a reliable source would be good. Heck, if we got sparks of life for prestige that might be incentive to log on every day to do that sort of thing. Every day submitting a "feedback" request (new option?) would grant you one spark of life. You would be improving the game while continuing to play it!
I should drop this onto the suggestion thread huh...

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 14:12

#24

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Have you tried switchshooting a callahan + a DVS at close range?

Yes I have! It's awesome! I've also recently gotten the Trotogun, so that might be helpful, too. (I'm not sure, though.)

Every day submitting a "feedback" request (new option?) would grant you one spark of life.

I don't remember the name of the game, but there was this one spaceship MMO where the paid currency (gold) was gifted to players who voted on the polls which the devs put out. This always encouraged me to vote in the polls because that gold would add up. Something like that could remedy the situation, but only as long as polls are being posted by the devs...I don't like the sound of that. :S

But I don't know if that's what you meant.

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 14:16

#25

Bopp

even better

Missions give out free sparks of life early on, but having a reliable source would be good. Heck, if we got sparks of life for prestige that might be incentive to log on every day to do that sort of thing.

I've got an even better idea. What if, just by playing, we got a special kind of "token"? You could exchange these tokens for Sparks of Life. Or, if you already had enough of those, you could exchange them for orbs of alchemy. Or guild hall improvements, or UVs at Punch, or just about anything you wanted. And these tokens wouldn't be bound; you could trade them with other players. They would be a completely flexible commodity, that you could use as you wish.

I would call these special, ultra-flexible tokens "crowns".

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 14:26

#26

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

@Bopp

LOL

Problem is that crowns can run dry. :S

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 14:36

#27

Klipik-Forum

@Bopp

but getting cr is boring, and, as we said before, rarities are overpriced.

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 16:50

#28

Plancker

rarities overpriced? OP said

rarities overpriced? OP said he can go 30-50 levels between deaths.. thats 300-500 levels to earn 200 ce to buy the sparks, should be more than enough right? I use DVS a lot myself too and when I die, its because I am pushing my luck or make another mistake, not because the weapon is weak. Even when I die, its still just the emergency revive, and that is the point where I stop taking risks and play safer, even with DVS. That still means playing aggressively, just not intentionally taking a hit for the sake of killing a few priority targets faster. If I do seem to mess up again and get low on my 2nd life however, I will play carefully and do a few hits and shield so I block the hit for sure, and do that until I get into a safe hp zone again.

My advice when using the DVS: get some ASI (but get as much dmg bonus as you can first), a strong shield fit for the enemies you are facing and dont use that charge attack ever...

The ASI seems really helpful for me, as I have the feeling it sometimes let me interrupt that mecha or darkfang thwacker right before he can launch his attack, where without ASI I probably wouldnt have been able to do that in time, resulting in lower DPS or even taking a hit.
The shield has to be strong, so you can always stay near the enemies. Doing a few hits then having to dodge for 5 seconds will make you slow, its better to hit them a few times, block the incoming bullets/attacks and start slashing again. The ultimate combo is dropping a vortex bomb and using the seraphynx aura, with which ive solo'ed heart of ice without sparking. (sera is best used as an aggressive pet imo)
The charge attack shouldnt need explaining but since I saw it mentioned here.. Its really bad and CTR is the worst UV to get on a DVS, it doesnt do a lot more dmg compared to the normal combo, and it roots you in place. I doubt it even does more DPS than the normal combo, assuming you could spam it, because you need to charge it up as well.

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 17:24

#29

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

@Plancker

No, I can do 30-50 levels when I'm not rusty. I'm rusty right now.

FYI I solo'd Vana and died...once? Twice? I don't remember. I used the DVS and the Callahan.

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 17:44

#30

Plancker

Still, sparks price is

Still, sparks price is fine... making them cheaper only lowers the reward for playing well and not dying.

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 18:27

#31

Jabbzz

Since I rarely die, or put myself into situations where I'm not sure I could make it out alive, I still have a little over 100 sparks left. Personally I just don't like them because they pretty much killed the whole teamwork part of the game that I loved about SK (if you're running with a random party).

And while I agree with Plancker that 10 sparks for 200 CE is reasonable, I feel like they cause more trouble than they should be. I'm not sure how to fix this, because not all of the SK community is complaining about sparks. Some people have 2 or less to their name, while others have plenty to spare.

I guess I'll just keep grumbling about the good ol' days and how health sharing was better. .

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 19:20

#32

Xxpapaya

The papaya does not agree

@Plancker
But I believe the problem is that, for quite a few players (especially beginners), the amount of times they die is greater than the amount of sparks they earn. You can't exactly go "well, thats their fault for dying so often, they have to improve". If you can't even play a level/complete a mission (due to a lack of sparks) the game gets boring eventually resulting in them quitting/not getting better at all and thus not being able to do anything.

@Jabbzz
Yeah, I miss health sharing D:

@Autofire
How D: I absolutely have to be in a party (Since I'm a pure bomber :P ) and even when I bring out the big guns (and swords) I still end up dying like, a few dozen times D:. Although that might be due to the fact that I can't use anything that isn't a bomb :P

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 20:28

#33

Klipik-Forum

@Planck

It's not that they're overpriced in the sense that it costs so much that you have to do an unreasonable amount of farming and die virtually never to be self-sustaining. Two FSC runs (about 200CE) to die less than 10 times is more than reasonable. The problem is, as it was with farming in the Mist days, you have to give up too much of your profit to get something that you don't feel is worth as much as you are paying for it. As I stand now I have 1 spark. If I had 9 more, I would not feel as if playing through enough levels (I try to play interesting levels, not FSC) to get enough money to buy 10 more sparks was a good use of my time. Games are supposed to be fun, playing scared and cautious until you have enough sparks to take risks is no fun.

Plus, if you think about what you said
"sparks price is fine... making them cheaper only lowers the reward for playing well and not dying"
Making sparks a "reward" for playing better doesn't actually make sense at all. The people who play better, and therefore die less, get to have... more sparks, which they would only need if they died more often? While on the other hand, the people who play worse get less sparks, which makes them run into problems like the OP has. You're giving the thing one group of people needs to the group who doesn't need it. Where's the logic in that?

I don't have a solution here, but rewarding players who die less withe a buffer to die more is counterintuitive and pointless. I'm not against rewarding players who are more skilled, on the contrary I think that's one of the best things a game can ever do. But make the reward something that makes sense, something useable. As for those stuck without sparks, if I knew what could be done about that I would be yelling it everywhere, because that's a problem I have and there needs to be a better solution than either "play better" or "pay or gt*o".

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 20:35

#34

Klipik-Forum

Something else I thought of that's kinda related but also not

What is everyone here's strategy for getting, preserving, and keeping Sparks? Do you play differently when you have a "safe" amount than if you're running low? have you ever run low? Do you take more risks when you know you have a spark buffer, because it's more enjoyable?

I know personally, I would play more cautiously (and be bored out of my mind) to get enough sparks to get to a number where I could afford to experiment and mess up. That's if I could get over the fact that spark farming feels like work and I play games to have fun, not work. I don't know if this is just my playstyle or a common one, but I think the current system with the Depot prices and drop rates for rarities where they are does facilitate this mindset and it's not a healthy one.

(Should I make this a separate thread?)

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 21:56

#35

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

@Klipik

No, that's fine. It's a good point. You are very right: Why reward those who are good, with more sparks? Why do you even need more? The only reason is so that you can power through those events that they throw at you or burn them on the occasional Danger Mission, but those are bad reasons...

It just doesn't make sense. It's just like how in some game which name I don't remember. The dominating team gets a helicopter to bomb the other team. What? The dominating team is the one that needs more pressure, they're way ahead! They should be getting bombed! But, alas...

It's just a strange, vicious cycle.

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 23:17

#36

Xxpapaya

The papaya is puzzled

@Autofire
Then what do you propose to fix it? :( I guess thats the main problem >.<

Wed, 08/13/2014 - 05:15

#37

Plancker

I knew that sentence was a

I knew that sentence was a bit weird when I posted it, but I didnt know how to say it better. I suppose what I meant is that sparks are not the reward itself, the reward is not having to buy sparks from depot. The reward is avoiding the punishment for playing bad. The actual reward for playing well is a sense of accomplishment I guess.

I played the game for like a week when mist was still a thing. It was really boring only being able to play a couple levels a day and if everyone died, you would need to use CE to rev and the amount needed kept increasing, so you had to choose between reviving or paying the elevator cost again. I much prefer this system where you get a ton of revives from missions alone, get free stuff to craft with early in the game, and can find even more orbs from boxes which also reduces craft cost compared to the mist energy times. I think the game is guiding new players very well right now, giving them appropriate levels for them to do with decent rewards.

I think if you find yourself dying too often, why not try an easier level? or play on a lower difficulty?

Wed, 08/13/2014 - 10:09

#38

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

@Plancker

But what if I've already spent all my money on Sparks? What if I'm a noobish T1 player? I can't afford 200 energy!

I have been playing on easier levels. However, it's a bit frustrating to...ah whatever. I like the game feeling harder. :S

Wed, 08/13/2014 - 11:00

#39

Fangel

We won't share. :|

Only problem with sparks of life is that they are a reward for you to use on you. The ability to use them on a teammate was only second nature, as seen by how you have to give them the spark. Adding an ability to revive teammates through an item about as rare as a spark of life (but could be bought at a more affordable rate on the supply depot) would improve the teamwork of the game, especially if it worked essentially like an old health revive. It could give the revived player half their health back, and not pause you in combat.

Wed, 08/13/2014 - 13:12

#40

Flowchart

What if sparks were unbound?
People with an excess can sell them off and others can buy them for cheaper than the supply depot.
Although then there'd be no way to tell between people who earned the sparks and those who bought them, but that's alright.

Wed, 08/13/2014 - 14:03

#41

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

@Flowchart

That would work fine, I guess. They wouldn't be so insanely expensive, so newer players could afford them.

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 21:06

#42

Klipik-Forum

But, alt farming?

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 21:45

#43

Welux

>This thread.
I agree entirely. The spark system, while it has sort of forced some players to get better and not jump in front of a lumber, it has also caused many people (like me) to be constantly low on sparks. Mainly because i wasn't a vanguard and i lost alot of sparks because i simply was not very good at the game at the time, and wan't in a guild that actually helped me.

Because of this, for the majority of my time playing up until recently, I've had little to no sparks. I say recently because i got tired of it, purchased energy and bought about 100 sparks. I'm at about 70 now from alot of Tortodrone fighting.
This is really annoying for me, while it's my own fault, still. To have to buy the ability to revive is kinda poopy, i like it but at the same time i don't like it.

i agree they should be unbound, same with fire crystals you find, as far as alt farming goes, then OOO should implement a system that doesn't allow 2 accounts to be accessed from the same pc. I dunno how this would work, maybe by IP? but then people who live together wouldnt be able to play. It's a very slippery slope, that i wish was an easier thing to tackle. it would make things alot better in terms of they spark system and the forge system would be handled a bit easier. two birds with one stone.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 07:18

#44

Momofuku

I have a hard time understanding the arguments against Sparks of Life so far -- if anything, the system is a much more lenient system compared to the old revive system.

Old system: 10 energy revive, doubling each time (10, 20, 40, 80) which made it very costly to do difficult missions because this energy cost directly competed with your ability to go down elevators.
New system: Free emergency revive (ie. you get that 10 energy first revive for free), then one spark each time. 1 Spark costs 20 energy, so spending your first Spark makes you break even with the old system (you're reviving twice the first time you spend a Spark, basically). Each subsequent revive still costs only 20 energy (the 3rd revive would have cost you 40 energy, or 2 sparks, in the old system).

In addition you should generally be dying less with the new system if you hold your emergency revive by the end of a depth: it heals you to a full visible bar (up to 30 pips). That's a huge perk considering with the old system, there was no such way to "heal" yourself just by playing a depth well and not dying -- you'd need to find heart pads or pills.

Currently, nothing forces you to "run out" of sparks except poor spark management: you shouldn't always spend a spark just because you've died. Maybe the game doesn't do a good job educating the player that sparks are costly and valuable and should be reserved for specific scenarios where completing the depth/area is worth it (ie. close to winning boss tokens or finishing danger room).

It's hard to swallow the "I want to play the game the way I want to" argument because, well, the developers also made the game they want to, too. And judging by the cost of Sparks and how it is not easy to find them for free, it seems like they want players to rise to the challenge and complete most levels without dying.

...

(Heart Trinkets make your E-Revive even better by padding your total available health - if I were to do it all over again, I'd probably invest in some heart trinkets to make T2/T3 much much easier.)

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 08:01

#45

Jabbzz

Well that's just it though, people don't know the value of their sparks until they really need them. You have most players wasting their sparks in minor situations when they should have saved them. And as said, the game doesn't convey how important it is to save your sparks.

While the new system is alot better for soloing depths, it sure doesn't really help when it comes to party runs. I mean look at how random parties are run now in SK. Its more like 4 people just happening to be on the same depth, than an actual team. And if a person goes down and has no sparks, well tough luck kid. And why is that? Because the cost of reviving a person outweighs the benefit usually. I have revived people and not 30 seconds later they are on the ground again. So that shows people, "Hey, maybe its better if I just hold on to my sparks" because you don't know the skill level of these random people you are running with.

Now with health sharing, you didn't have to give up something so precious to revive another player, and it really gave that teamwork feeling even with random parties. With health sharing you weren't entirely punished if that player you revived wasn't that good, because if the whole team went down 1 person could revive with 10 energy and pick up 2 other people. Now with sparks, you are practically spending 20 CE everytime you revive a person. Sure, everyone has a free revive, but I've seen people burn that at the very beginning of a depth.

The Spark system is great for soloing (or with 1 other person) missions and arcade, but has almost killed teamwork in random parties.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 08:20

#46

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

@Momo

I understand, and like that, the new system is easier going in that sense. But what happens to the new player who runs out of sparks?

Also, Heart Trinkets can only help so much; once you hit Silver HP, then E-Rev stops being as effective. At this point I would change into a full defense set, relying on the HP from the vitapod.

@Jabbzz

What if we reward players for reviving others? I don't know, maybe give them a few tokens or something?

Oh wait, alt farming.

Also, somebody said that you could do something with the IP. This won't work because of a) proxies and b) my brother plays from the same house (but not the same computer) that I do.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 08:45

#47

Momofuku

@Jabbzz: It's true that the system greatly benefited solo-ing, which was a good thing when a lot of people complained about random parties being ineffective. And there is absolutely no incentive to revive a stranger (another reason why players need to be in control of their own spark management!) In many cases it is better to stay dead and be revived in the next depth and play with caution not to die again.

@Autofire: If you run out of sparks, go back to Haven. Then play the mission again and don't die twice per depth. With no elevator cost, you are always free to try again. If a player has too much trouble doing a mission without requiring a spark to finish it, the player should lower difficulty to Normal/Advanced or play an easier mission. Wouldn't a similar question in the old energy system be, what happens to a player who runs out of mist and dies? He goes back to Haven or he coughs up the crystal energy and revives himself. The player needs to make the decision "is the revive worth the cost?" and this was more obvious when you were using energy directly to revive yourself as opposed to an item (spark of life) even when the cost is the same.

Don't most MMO's require you to respawn back in town anyway once you've died? With sparks you are paying a price to revive without redoing the mission altogether, and it should be reserved for particular circumstances and not every circumstance. The player's goal should be to complete the mission without needing sparks at all. This is very doable in Normal and Advanced settings, and "not wanting to play those difficulty settings but still not wanting to use sparks" is a poor argument since that's sort of why easier modes exist in the first place. So you aren't forced to spend Sparks.

Players need to associate Sparks of Life with spending actual crown/energy to revive. It doesn't seem that way (because it's an item), but the mindset needs to be "I am spending 1400 cr to revive right now--is it worth it or should I start over?" I agree the game does not do a good job putting this thought in players' heads. But that's how it should be.

Heart trinkets do lose effectiveness after 30 pips, but this is such a minor "drawback" compared to the incredible benefit of starting a mission with an extra +12 vitapod.

---

I would like to see some benefit (albeit small) for reviving others, like inheriting the attack bonus buff you get from being revived. It's the least you can get for spending a Spark of Life on someone.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 11:11

#48

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

@Momofuku

Unlike most MMOs, though, this one has no fallback for the player with no energy or sparks; then they start begging others.

I'm not talking about the noob who has the money to get more sparks. I'm talking about the noob who just spent all his money on that new weapon. I know it may be stupid not to buy more, and I'm not saying I wouldn't. (I do buy more) I'm saying that there may be those who cannot buy more and thus have no means of reviving, forcing them to go back to Haven. They'll get impatient and start begging, because they'll be so sick of dieing and never getting better.

And don't tell me that they could go to an easier level. Tell them that.

It's just, right now, there is a reason for some to beg. By fixing this, you therefor make it so that all beggars have no reason to do so. It would benefit everyone if you got even one Spark when you run out.

(I suppose it was idiotic of me to post my own story...I was mainly saying it to showcase what gave me the idea, but many don't realize that. Now people keep saying I'm a bad player, and while I'm not the best, I know my stuff. I'm not posting this out of incompetence!)

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On Sparks and why something must change