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About Trinkets and Lockdown

15 replies [Last post]
Tue, 08/12/2014 - 09:48
Johnnjlee's picture
Johnnjlee

Regarding trinkets in lockdown

In lockdown, people load up on trinkets that buff their health to ridiculous levels. I know strikers should not be tanks, however they load up on health trinkets effectively turning them into highly mobile tanks. This causes most people (9/10 people) to play nothing but striker. All of the other classes can't compete thus making other classes effectively redundant. Thus I suggest trinkets to be removed until each class is at least balanced against each other.

Thanks for your consideration.

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 10:57
#1
Theirillusion's picture
Theirillusion

Suggestions section pls.

+1

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 14:09
#2
Seiran's picture
Seiran

Regarding trinkets in lockdown

In lockdown, people load up on trinkets that buff their health to ridiculous levels because they play vs strikers who wear health trinkets. Strikers aren't naturally tanks, however they load up on health trinkets effectively turning them into highly mobile tanks. For some reason, nobody's figured out that trinkets can also turn recons into high-damage assassins or high-speed status storms or turn Guardians into quick-poking turtles, thus making everyone think that striker is the only playable class at a high level and that health trinkets are the only trinkets worth making. Thus I suggest people experiment with other classes and equipment combinations before making naive suggestions.

Thanks for your consideration.

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 15:13
#3
Turn-Me-On's picture
Turn-Me-On
(No sarcasm intended)

^A perfect example of turning a post with no thought into a post worth thinking about.

Good job.

Tue, 08/12/2014 - 21:02
#4
Klipik-Forum's picture
Klipik-Forum
@Serian

I switched from Guard to Striker when I switched to T3 because I couldn't keep up with the combined mobility, damage and tankiness of ASI'd, penta'd skolver strikers even with full vog. Is that just because I suck?

Wed, 08/13/2014 - 04:07
#5
Whimsicality's picture
Whimsicality

Trinkets are literally cheaper than a fully heated piece of gear, 4* or 5*. If you're looking to play to have fun, then go and do your best. If you're looking to be competitively viable, suck it up and cough up the CE. Maybe change your playstyle, too? Never hurt.

I for one would like to see Lockdown's balance revamped to disallow UV's, trinkets, Auto Target, and the like, while still keeping everyone at the same pace they are now, but those are expectations that are beyond reasonable.

~From someone who prefers Recon

Wed, 08/13/2014 - 04:31
#6
Ill-Fate-Ill's picture
Ill-Fate-Ill

I only have one Penta Heart Pendant...
~Anyway, if you want to be a rocket tank, equip Ancient Plate Mail. It gives 7+ health and 8+ at lvl 5. Its normal defence lets you tank that extra AT Acheron combo or GF double swing.

Wed, 08/13/2014 - 04:53
#7
Krakob's picture
Krakob

As someone who can play all classes well (18k scored as recon, 17k as guardian, 25k as striker), I really think that Striker is OP. The reason?

In my opinion, there's a clear idea behind how the classes should counter each other. Let's break it down.

Recon vs Guardian
Recons rely on the element of surprise to deal heavy damage required to deal with the high HP of guardians. However, guardians can shield, which allows them to counter any incoming recon ambush.

Recon vs Striker
Due to being unseen, Recons aren't vulnerable to strikers, unless played in a very bad manner. With good positioning and prediction, a recon can punish a striker's attempt at hitting them. Let's also not forget that strikers who are capping are very vulnerable, since they have a limited area to move on, as well as no shield or cloak to protect themselves with.

Striker vs Guardian
The sheer speed and power of a striker can quickly break the shield of a guardian, leaving them very vulnerable. After that, the striker's only disadvantage against the guardian is health. The striker will have an easy time bringing the guardian down unless the guardian really knows what they're doing.

All that said, this doesn't take all playing styles into account. Either way, a disadvantaged class can win against an advantaged one, even though it's hard.

The actual problem here is more than just one, though. Since the topic is pentas, I'll just discuss that, however. Strikers are given as much health as a guardian without pentas, effectively turning them into non-glass cannons. Yes, guardians and recons can get more, but it doesn't change the fact that strikers aren't glass cannons anymore. Because of that, they can afford to make mistakes. They can afford to go alone. They can afford to just tank hits, and that's not in line with the original thought behind the striker class, as far as I know. It also invalidates my idea of a striker vs recon match up. Landing a successful ambush simply isn't rewarding and playing smart for just a few moves isn't rewarding enough either when a striker can take 5 blows from you or more. Likewise, being the striker with pentas in this situation means you won't be punished too much from just striking the air blindly instead of predicting the enemy.

Wed, 08/13/2014 - 10:41
#8
Turn-Me-On's picture
Turn-Me-On
^ I don't wanna get into the

^ I don't wanna get into the class vs class balance discussion, but the point you made about strikers swinging at nothing is a good one.

I think adding a delay between your most recent attack and being able to use the striker boost would be the fix (like 1/4 or 1/3 second). That way, you would no longer be able to use any technique that relies on using the shield for more speed (polaris switch spamming, alchemer switch-spamming, ff/gf switch-spamming, etc.) It would go something like hit - wait 1/4 or 1/3 second - then use striker boost.

This also would fix the camera-angle ambushing problem. No longer would you be able to dash up from below, hit with one flourish/gf/ff hit, and immediately dash back downwards without giving the person a chance to react. Instead, it wold be dash-hit-pause from delay, and then the fight would begin fairly.

Hey! A fix that ends weapon spamming as a striker and also fixes the camera angle issue? Why not?

Wed, 08/13/2014 - 12:12
#9
Krakob's picture
Krakob

No. Shield cancelling is an element of skill which is far more available to recons and guardians than strikers. Encouraging people to just spam combos is completely opposite of what would make the game more balanced and skill based.

Wed, 08/13/2014 - 13:29
#10
Deleted-Knight's picture
Deleted-Knight

@Seiran
ASI, CTR, DMG, even movement speed can all be gained from armor. Because defense is worth crap in Lockdown, armor essentially becomes trinket slots for those buffs.
Extra health can only be gained from Ancient set, and that comes with a debuff in attack and movement speed. Furthermore, Ancient's health buff is pathetic when compared to penta-heart trinkets. Unlike other buffs, health is not capped (the cap is ridiculously high), so if you have the right armor, health trinkets is almost always the most useful ones.

@Thread
OOO did not consider the damage mechanics while balancing the classes. The health difference between striker and guardian/recon is equivalent to about one extra sword swing in T3. This is not a problem...except nobody stands around trading blows with someone else. There's a lot of variability/luck involved. Strikers, by design, are statistically better at landing hits than the other classes. If everyone has more health, one extra hit is a smaller variability (ex. 6:5 is smaller ratio than 4:3). So if everyone has more health, strikers get more advantage (Statistically, they have a greater chance of landing the extra hit(s) needed to kill).
Analogy:
Let's play a game, where we each roll a six sided die to deal damage to each other. I start with 5 health and you start with 10 health. Here's the catch: my die is loaded so I roll 4,5,6 more often than 1,2,3. As it is now, the game is still pretty fair.
Now suppose I start with 15 health and you start with 20, and we play the same game. I now have a significant advantage.

What does this mean?
There's no way to balance the classes without fixing the damage mechanics (and the trinkets themselves). To make things balanced for trinket users would mean making things unbalanced for those not using trinkets. I think the reason OOO isn't touching Lockdown balance is because the whole thing is one tangled mess.

Thu, 08/21/2014 - 13:05
#11
Iimonster's picture
Iimonster
suck it up >;3

this remind's me of back in the day when i had no pendents and just 2 damage trinkets,so i diced to go guard and my Hp was the same as a striker with two 5 star pendents i thought it was unfair cause they could stun lock me and all i had was a shield that recover's in about 10 sec but i eventually got over that and got 24k which remain's to be my highest damage even know i have pendent's now so pendents.

Wed, 08/13/2014 - 15:13
#12
Meep-The-Bank's picture
Meep-The-Bank
Meep.

@OP
I see where you are going with this, from a non-trinket-using point of view.

'' people load up on trinkets that buff their health to ridiculous levels. I know strikers should not be tanks, however they load up on health trinkets effectively turning them into highly mobile tanks ''

To be honest, each health trinket helps a player sustain about 2 more non-heavy sword hits / 1 heavy sword hit before they die. Though they may be 'highly mobile tanks', they are actually not tanks with a lot of health. With deception and tactics, one can easily take down a double-penta striker within 20 seconds or so with a few techniques. Health isn't everything. Health trinkets just help increase the amount of damage you can take before you die, so if you are quite the Speedy Gonzales who can dodge hits and deceive others, you don't need health trinkets at all.

'' This causes most people (9/10 people) to play nothing but striker ''

No. Just no. Actually, it makes people try to create new tactics to deal with new threats. As I said, dodging is a great way to deal with strikers, even if you aren't using the class. And to be honest, the guardian class provides more defence and health than a striker; the same can be said about a recon versus a striker. The only thing both of these classes have a disadvantage in is having enough space / being speedy to manoeuvre out of danger.

'' All of the other classes can't compete thus making other classes effectively redundant. ''

Nope.

In some situations, more health is worthless. E.g Strikers (Skolvers / Chaoses) who run into a Voltaic Tempest. Though they may have much more health to survive with after being shocked, a simple technique of trapping the striker and then dealing a lot of damage in seconds will just kill them instantly. More damage :3

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 01:38
#13
Bleyken's picture
Bleyken

If you suck and you use pendants you will still sucking but you will give free damage. Trinkets are useless if you don't know how to play.

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 21:08
#14
Turn-Me-On's picture
Turn-Me-On
@Mengh 20 seconds? What, are

@Mengh
20 seconds? What, are they playing with proto weapons?

Try 2 seconds.

Since some people obviously forgot why heart trinkets were made available easily in the first place, let me remind you that you could cloak and combo, and kill any striker like that. Though OOO needs to fix their math machine, since penta.should give 5 not 6. Then true loves would be seful again.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 11:33
#15
Jungle-Sword's picture
Jungle-Sword
trinkets

As contri said, if you are a bad player, trinkets wont help you. I notice this when I'm up to a sword fight as a a bomber with my triglav. I just cant handle it so well, and even my 1 penta wont save me. For me, the penta heart trinket is only useful while using my bombs and dodging bullets.

OP: I (mostly) dont get angry about 'tanking' strikers, more about super guard tanks. With almost gold health, it takes AT LEAST 30seconds to defeat them if they are not totally braindead. And the guardian shield heals even, that means they can recover health after a kill. In a 1vs1 vs a guard with double penta (example: reto-da-liz) you will probably lose, because he'll take 5 GF combos, whereas you as striker will take 1and a half maybe. There not even the mobility of a strker will help much.
I'ts true, strikers can have a lot of health, but if you take one penta away, and have 1 4* piece(me), you'll die in a GF/DA combo. Thats not great at all.
So OOO has to fix the damage mechasnics (like deleted-knight said)

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