Spiral Knights - The Meta of Lockdown

The Meta of Lockdown

31 replies [Last post]

Wed, 08/13/2014 - 17:05

Meep-The-Bank

Derived from the League Of Legends community as ''simple op way to easily win'', the meta of Lockdown is densely populated with information for the new people joining Lockdown to grab a set of gear and simply go. However I'm afraid that this sort of meta isn't the most simplest overpowered way in order to win and yet others follow it because they believe it'll make them strong. It's quite common to see people dress the same or use the same weapons.

The only problem is... what's the meta of Lockdown? What plagiarism is being thrown around so new people can use the information only to become pathetic ?

Well, here's my point of view of the meta of Lockdown broken up into small titles I'd like to talk about.

- Gear
- Tactics
- US and EU Lockdown
- The 'Meta' of Lockdown
- Popular Trends
- Capturing
- Guild Versus Guild Lockdown
- Mentality of Lockdown
- Effect of Lockdown (hate comments/compliments)

Some of these may interlock with each other and so create a more diverse discussion.

Wed, 08/13/2014 - 19:09

Ill-Fate-Ill

Autotarget.

Stop teaching the ways of the AT to newer players.

Part 1) They join a game, see Skolvers darting around and killing them in 1-2 hits. Then the skolvers get killed an scream about Autotarget. The new players start to get the mood around LD and start using Autotarget.

Part 2) The new players start realising they hit bad damage and die easily. They discover heart pendants and Damage Bonus. They use them, slowly transforming into your typical skolver.

Part 3) The learn that /p lets everyone hear your ranting instead of screaming at your team. They get better gear, penta hearts and start rolling ASI's on their weapons. They find that Polaris is a good crutch to rely on.

Part 4) Ta-da! Your New Player has evolved into Typical Skolver!!

Wed, 08/13/2014 - 20:43

Klipik-Forum

"meta"

LD has no "metagame" in the sense that it does not have a constantly rotating, evolving idea of what the best equips and strategies are that changes based on both player innovation and developer balance changes. Instead, there is one dominant playstyle that has remained more or less unchanged since day one:

-Swords
-High damage
-Striker
-as much ASI as you can cram into everything
-Stunlocking

With these core goals in mind, the only things that ever change are the tools OOO gives us to further those goals. For the longest time, the best thing was Skolver with ASI UVs. Then when Chaos and Acheron got buffed, it became FF+GF+Acheron+Valiance+BKC+Chaos+UVs. You can still do "off-meta" things, like support bombing, gunning, or whatever else you can come up with, but at the end of the day the most widely used strategy is most widely used because it is generally the most effective thing anyone's bothered to come up with in the last 2 or so years.

...But I would really, REALLY love to see what would happen if someone got some top-tier FPS or MOBA progamers together, stuffed 6 accounts full of the most OP gear money can buy, and turned them loose on the GvG scene.

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 05:14

Meep-The-Bank

Meep.

@Nocturne-Grande So true...

@Klipik-Forum I'd have to agree with all your points; it just sums up what the general and popular meta of the game is in my opinion. Striker + High damage + ASI + stunlocking/shocklocking.

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 06:10

Seiran

..?

I don't fully get where this is going lol.

Are you just writing down the newbies' perceived "best" gear+uses?

---
Striker - The Striker class is commonly used by many players due to it's rapid dash and it's attack speed increase of medium. Though they are seen to be controlling the battlefield, invading points and being the first line of defence, they have quite low health compared to the Recon and the Guardian class.

Recon - The Recon class enables cloaking, a fun feature which can be used to get behind the enemy's back and simply stab them as hard as they can. One thing that burns my nerves is the fact that some recons cloaks and when they get the chance, they combo continuously. The fact that they can get people from behind is impressive however it sort of ruins the fun and though this may seem to be a simple way, it's actually not as these reckons can easily be whittled down to a pulp when facing 2 or 3 enemy players.

Guardian - Same points as recon where many amateur guardians combo continuously because they are not aware of the class's full potential. This encourages players to simply just use the guardian class because of the buffs such as status immunity when shielding.

How come only recon and guardian newbies use combos?

I'm pretty sure almost all new players coming from PVE use combos, since there are no invincibility frames and you can interrupt attacks in PVE.

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 06:52

Valtiros

I m pretty sure that removing

I m pretty sure that removing auto target would drastically chance the lockdown metagame...

Just a thought from my mind.

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 07:19

Seiran

Autotarget:

Recon has its cloak to sneak, misdirect and avoid attacks.
Guardian has its shield to protect against attacks.
Striker has boost, often used to dodge or space attacks.

The reason AT becomes such an issue is because many people who use the ever-popular striker rely on "dodging" instead of "spacing".

OMG HOW DARE YOU HIT ME WHILE I'M MOVING SIDEWAYS INSIDE YOUR ATTACK RADIUS!!!

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 07:36

Meep-The-Bank

Meep.

@Seiran Yes, Seiran. I'm typing down what newbies perceive as ''the best gear / set'' and trying to show them that there are other things besides that gear. Some can't use weapons right yet stick to it. Also to both Valt and Seiran, don't turn this into an AT thread.

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 07:42

Turn-Me-On

^Don't limit other people's opinions.

Once you figure out that 99% of players have the same attack psyhology, you realize that they can easily be outsmarted by a non-clone loadout. It just takes a little thought, which very very very very very few LD players are capable of when they have their favorite asi GF FF Valianve Polaris loadout at hand.

Cant give away any tactical info more specific then that, cause, ya know. Competition and such.

You can basically turn that bkc clone into a cat chasing a laser...

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 12:46

Dragneel-Wiki

Derived from the League Of Legends community as ''simple op way to easily win'',

Mengh, please...

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 14:10

#10

Meep-The-Bank

Meep.

@Dragneel-Wiki Well, it's mainly from the LoL community. That's sort of what I went upon the lines of. The meta in LoL is just overpowered and so people just simply follow it in order to get out of Bronze / to a higher rank. I would normally play a few games and just see often AP Teemo or AD+AS Riven and it's too overused, making the gameplay boring as you'll need to depend on the meta-followers to carry.

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 14:37

#11

Dragneel-Wiki

The term "meta" existed way before LoL surfaced. Also, I am pretty sure that "meta" addresses how the game revolves around q specific strategy, NOT the imbalanced champions LoL has in its library. For instance, in each patch in Defense of the Ancients (dota) the meta shifts in different directions. One time it's about pushing and the other is about teamfighting. However, it has never meant which hero is the most OP and use it everytime. So yeah, I think you mean trends or something else.

And that basically leads us to the conclusion that LD doesn't really have a meta, more like popular items to pick because they shine among the underpowered hipster items, and the fact we dont really have "strategic" elements to revolve a meta around it, though the only strategy I came to realize is:

Dead people cant capture

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 14:55

#12

Krakob

My belief on what a meta-game is would be something like what the currently most effective strategies are for high level play. In SK, it's toothpicks, sealed swords, Fayeth, and Polaris.

We could have a look at Wikipedia's article on it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming

Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.

The Wikipedia article has no sources but based on this information, most high level players are "metagaming". They know about switch attacking, midstepping, know when, where, and why resistances are worthwhile, and know how to make a set which doesn't waste any defence and so on.

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 14:56

#13

Meep-The-Bank

Meep.

@Dragneel-Wiki To be honest, I would agree with you that LD is more trends than having a meta.

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 14:56

#14

Dragneel-Wiki

But that's called techniques Kraky, not a whole strategy, isn't it?

Thu, 08/14/2014 - 15:21

#15

Krakob

Some things are. Understanding the mechanics of LD isn't technique, that's knowledge. Either way, being a good fighter helps your team become more successful and last time I checked, not dying is a rly gud stratgy.

Knowing your mechanics and your techniques is a lot like knowing your champs/heroes and your item builds in DotA/LoL, is it not? All is part of optimising your performance and by doing so, also your team's performance.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 01:08

#16

Dragneel-Wiki

As far as I understood throughout my journey in Dota, we call what you mentioned "individual skill and experience." In short, the meta in dota has changed several times in the past, but I will shade some light on the most notable ones. (I apologize if I use unfamiliar terms so bear with me)

Beginnings:
It was all about protecting your carry. Your whole team is built around him and you should protect him till you reach lategame-ultralategame then you can play on the offense.

The counter of 4 protect 1:
Teams realized the best way wasn't trying to hinder the carry, but actually getting heroes that skyrocket early-midgame and is capable of pick offs. So it was The Ganking Era.

The counter of massive ganking:
The most annoying meta in dota's history, though it delivers insanely exciting games. You basically pick heroes capable of split pushing while the enemy is wandering around the map. You are limited because if you don't kill the splitpusher, you will lose towers, and if you don't gank the carry and his supports they will get farm and snowball. Tough choice, usually you lose the game if you get counterpicked.

The current meta:
DEATHBALLING. You pick heroes with huge AoE abilities and can push fast that the enemy's splitpusher can't keep up and put his team into unfavourable trade.

so I don't think the knowledge of a couple of tricks and techniques, or the shallow strategical teamplay in LD allows her to have a meta that "shifts and changes" and isn't "dominant forever."

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 07:06

#17

Klipik-Forum

Since we're talking about other games apparently

" Also, I am pretty sure that "meta" addresses how the game revolves around q specific strategy, NOT the imbalanced champions LoL has in its library."

First of all, that 'q" isn't supposed to be there, right?
But actually, what I wanted to say about that was: LoL's meta is actually dependent on whatever champion is the most OP at the time. They're trying to use "perfect imbalance' but in fact screw up the 'perfect' part and just get imbalance and rotate around the imbalance, and the community follows by picking what most recently got buffed and think up ways to exploit it.
Link elaborating on that ( VERY NSFW): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS9tSS8JdRs&feature=youtu.be&t=20m

Starcraft II's metagame is actually much more interesting, since the game is more complex and hasn't been figured out to anywhere near the level of MOBAs. That means that even without frequent balance patches, people can make up their own new strategies and styles that can change the "metagame", or the strategies people most often use, if they find something better than what is currently happening. But to a lesser degree it does stagnate and have the same problem.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think there are two main things preventing LD from having an actually shifting metagame:
-the lack of balance, or, lack of healthy imbalance
-virtually no organized play

Almost everything that happens in LD happens in "solo queue". GvGs provide a more organized setting but even at that, those teams do not play together (as in all 6 ppl) regularly and do not play that often. That means that there isn't really a reason or even really a way to develop any complex strategies that revolve around teamwork and supporting each other. Instead the best strategy is whatever gets you, as an individual, the highest damage at the end of the game. And because there's no training environment or way to reliably test new individual strategies, those don't change either.

So what would I suggest to fix this?
-custom lobbies for organized 6v6-1v1 play
-incentive to win in RLD to make people care less about personal damage
-ability to play with the same RLD team you played with just then instead of getting randomized each game
-bringing blatantly worse weapons (in LD) in line with more widely used gear (anything that triggers invinciframes, Iron Slug, winmillion, etc)

Even one of those would help significantly, All of them would make for a revolution in LD as long as even a small amount of people take advantage of them. They will outperform everyone else and everyone else will follow into a new meta.

Of course, all this is assuming OOO cares at all about LD meta. Which they might not at all.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 07:39

#18

Dragneel-Wiki

I think I shouldn't have judged Mengh's use of meta, because he was referencing LoL while I was referring to Dota. So turns out the games are also way different in terms of strategy and how "meta" is created...

Dragneel-Wiki apologizes. Sorry!

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 12:28

#19

Pawsmack

@Klipik-Forum | Post #17

"Of course, all this is assuming OOO cares at all about LD meta. Which they might not at all."

One of the members on the OOO's team said that the Coliseum isn't on the top of their list right now, but it's still on there.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 14:58

#20

Meep-The-Bank

Meep.

e.e After an evening of lockdown matches (both random and GvG) all on the US server, seems like there might be somewhat different trends there compared to EU. The fact that many players I've encountered tried to spam polaris shots was because I was using bombs. Their excuse was that they spammed their barrage of polaris shots because I was using my bombs .-.

After asking a few people from the US matches some stuff, it looks like people were more persuaded to get attack speed increase on their polaris rather than attack speed on a sword. Maybe there are various trends in the US which are popular whereas in EU, they may be underrated and vice-a-versa. Just wondering if that is the case.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 14:54

#21

Dragneel-Wiki

Trends Meep, trends.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 14:59

#22

Meep-The-Bank

Meep.

Thanks for the reminder ^-^ Fixed it.

Wed, 08/20/2014 - 05:50

#23

Momofuku

Where is the discussion regarding objective and actually winning the match? This topic only discusses gear and class selection, not much on positioning and strategy.

From the lockdown wiki: http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Lockdown

3 CP match: 5 points for 1st cap, +3 for 2nd cap, +1 for third, first to reach 500 wins
5 CP match: 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 for each cap, respectively, first to reach 900 wins

Caps are all about point generation for your team (which I like to think of as point "growth" rate) and your ultimate goal is to have your points "grow" faster than the opponents team. Thus, if you think in terms of a 2-1 distribution for a 3 CP game (where your team owns 2 caps and enemy possesses 1 cap), your team's score "grows" +3 points more per tick than the enemy team.

In both 3 CP and 5 CP matches, your optimal cap layout for your team is 2-0 or better, prioritizing removing enemy caps after your team already has 2 caps. It doesn't look that impressive, especially in a 5 CP game, but maintaining 2 caps and keeping the other 3 neutral gives your team a +9 growth lead, whereas competing for sheer cap numbers and going for 3-2 ownership gives just a +3 growth lead.

If your team already owns 2 CPs, you are better off decapping 2 enemy CPs instead of fully capping 1 more for your team.

A team need a strong backbone of strikers for good positioning, at least half of the team should be Strikers - if not for fighting ability but to move between caps quickly and avoiding fights or fending people off from decapping your CPs. I don't know Recon/Guardian roles too well, but from just mobility alone it feels they are appropriate for defending home CP and ensuring their team keeps at least 1 CP active at all time. That first and second CPs are very, very critical for winning, and each tick that passes by when you don't own at least 1 CP leads to a massive gap.

Back capping (or at least back decapping) is very very strong against a mindless team that focuses on demolishing and camping other players, and if you play to win, you can pull quiet victories out of nowhere if you can defend your decaps.

EDIT: Thanks for pointing out my inaccuracies, Leekcoco! Fixed.

Tue, 08/19/2014 - 13:32

#24

Leekcoco

It's 3 points for the 2nd cap on a 3-point map, +1 for the 3rd, and 900 to win on 5. :3

Tue, 08/19/2014 - 13:59

#25

Meep-The-Bank

Meep

@Momofuku Yeah, I did forget to comment on about capturing points. In my opinion, I believe that guild versus guild lockdown encourages people to capture, because people are wanting to win but in random lockdown, it's quite different. Strikers capture points passively, sometimes they don't. The fact that they don't capture makes others capture the points however it results in them having less damage. If the whole team believed that getting more damage is more important than caps, they would honestly lose more frequently compared to a team of bombers who capture points in groups or as a team.

Since Lockdown has various aspects and points of views, this is just a small part of the whole discussion of capturing but a very interesting as it takes into account the points of views of some players. As I said, though people may be capturing, they'll get less damage compared to someone who's upfront, attacking all who come out of the enemy's base.

With Momofuku's advice on commenting on 3 and 5 point maps, I'll just take into account various guild versus guild matches I have been in like when I was against other lockdown guilds, some which were at the top of their game. Several strikers would take the lead due to their power in the front lines and cap the middle point and soon after invade some of the enemy's team points. The other players would help capture behind and try to make a defensive as we'll as offensive wall, pushing the whole team to the other team's capture and forcing the enemy to back away in their base. As long as some players would check up on points every so often, the game would be easily won on occasions.

P.S ...

Tue, 08/19/2014 - 14:19

#26

Fangel

Gonna help you with roles here Momo

Recons are great for decapping points on the enemy's side. They don't see you so they can't attack you - but they'll for sure slash at the air until they find you so you need to be able to move nicely.

Guardians work best when traveling with another teammate. They can't deal with a swarm of strikers, but if there is another teammate around, the guardian can protect them and have a much easier counter-attack. Guardians are great for moving the frontlines up, strikers are the first to the frontlines and do most of the fighting, and recons are best for hitting enemies from behind. It's the main reason why I travel with teammates as a guardian, but separate from the team as a recon.

I don't play striker too much because I can't do offensive well at all. :(

Tue, 08/19/2014 - 16:34

#27

Leekcoco

I actually find it easier to play Guardian solo because it's better to predict when they're only going after you. You move so slowly that it's more worthwhile to just stay on a few points you can access easily rather than trying to keep up with Strikers. It's mostly stalling and knocking out chunks of health when you have to fight.

Tue, 08/19/2014 - 22:11

#28

Klipik-Forum

No one's talked about playing to win so far because most LD that happens is RLD, and in RLD no one cares about actually winning most of the time. I wish I could comment on the GvG strategy but sadly my guild doesn't do GvG very consistently so I don't have much of an idea of effective strategies. What I will say is that voice chat would seem to be extremely helpful.

Wed, 08/20/2014 - 07:47

#29

Seiran

Don't take this too seriously lol.

The only problem is... what's the meta of Lockdown? What plagiarism is being thrown around so new people can use the information only to become pathetic ?

Ex: if this was 2012, people would easily say "flourish+GF skolver striker is OP!" and go around saying that guns are useless, etc. So the perceived "need this to win" set back then was to become a skolver striker with two swords.

Wed, 08/20/2014 - 12:49

#30

Meep-The-Bank

Meep.

@Seiran xD One big flaw with the new players getting a skolver set would be that they are quite vulnerable to the more annoying statuses like shock and fire.

Wed, 08/20/2014 - 16:01

#31

Fangel

To each their own I guess...

I guess I was going more from a bit of personal experience and how I believed Three Rings set up the classes for my other statements. Guardians have a protective shield to, well, protect teammates. That shield isn't being used to its full potential if it's not protecting or healing teammates. That doesn't mean that players can't be good while not using their shield to shield teammates (a similar effect is a recon who is only a recon for switch-shooting and almost never uses their cloak to deathmark or reposition), just that the shield was designed to protect your teammates who can't block a hit themselves.

Personally, I've found most of my success as a guardian while having at least one other teammate to back me up. Be it a recon or another guardian, or simply holding down a point with a striker constantly zipping about. You're backup to the strikers once they get hurt or push the enemy team back.

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The Meta of Lockdown