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Calming the fluctuations in Energy Market

11 replies [Last post]
Sat, 06/04/2011 - 11:51
Alchemystic's picture
Alchemystic

The fluctuations in the Energy Market are encouraging rapid inflation. I can adapt to inflation but it is very frustrating when it happens so quickly.

I understand that the energy market is supposed to be player run but the fluctuations are too severe. The 1% Crown fee for selling Crystal Energy encourages some player to speculate on the prices because the risk is so low. I really don't think it is the spirit of the game to allow some players to buy and sell Crystal Energy, amassing massive amounts of wealth with very little risk or work involved.

It doesn't make any sense to me that the Crown fee for trading Crystal Energy is only 1% while the Crown fee for the Auction House is 10%. The 10% Crown fee puts enough risk into the auctions that prices tend to stay in a stable range. I suggest raising the Crown fee on the Crystal Energy market to discourage speculators from trying to "beat the system". The fee increase may not have to be as high as 10% but the current rate of 1% on the Energy Market is so low that there is virtually no risk involved. Likewise, a similar Crown fee would need to be implemented for normal trades with Crystal Energy to prevent speculators from trying to circumvent the Energy Market.

Sat, 06/04/2011 - 12:19
#1
Ozbezarius
i thight aution house was

i thight aution house was decrease 5%

Sat, 06/04/2011 - 13:24
#2
Daystar
Legacy Username
It's not 1%, it's 2%, and

It's not 1%, it's 2%, and it's not a listing fee; It's as sale fee. There is no listing fee for Energy Market.

And the AH sell fee is 10%, with a listing fee that varies depending on item and duration.

There is actually 0 risk involved in listing energy right now. If there was one, it would help reduce the amount of artificial inflation of energy walls.

Sat, 06/04/2011 - 16:25
#3
Leviance
Legacy Username
If you one to cut down

If you one to cut down fluctuations tell the energy depot manager to stop eating bake beans.

Sun, 06/05/2011 - 06:21
#4
Raul
listing fees for ce maket,

listing fees for ce maket, /sign

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 11:50
#5
manoo2k
Legacy Username
Energy market is supposed to

Energy market is supposed to be driven by the game society.

However, now it can be ran by 1 or 2 players with high ammounts of energy/crowns, either for the sake of trolling or just to make use of that inflation.

To picture the situation for those who don't get what this means (you gotta be dumb enough, but that's what '... for dummies' books are about), I'm gonna use a simple example.

This gentleman (let's call it Adolf) has around 1.000.000 crowns he got by buying energy with his mother's credit card. So he thinks, "What could I do to make even more money?", and later realizes "Ah, I could exploit the flaws of this market thing and run my own business". Market prices, by then, are 5000 Crowns per 100 energy. So what Adolf do is, he first spends his 300.000 Crowns on 6000 Energy, and then he floods the market interface with 10 offerts to buy energy of an exaggerated ammount of around 6500 Crowns per 100 energy. Now you would think "Ah, this stupid Adolf is gonna lose his money, he's offering 1500 more energy than I am for 100 energy, what a waste, and you leave the market for a while, waiting for his stupid offerts to disappear. People selling energy on the market start leaving too, since it's not convinient for them to sell energy for 5000 Crowns, if they have to buy it for 6500. So they leave and selling price starts rising too.

Now what happens is, "10 years old" John logs in and screams "I WANT TO BUY ENERGY" (spitting) at the screen, so he offers 6550, and same happens when "Basement dweller" Charles logs in and wants desperately to play more than what his Mist tank can handle.

They start playing little Adolf's game, so what adolf does now is, he cancels his offers with absolutely 0 Loss, and waits for the Selling offers to raise. And when the price is around 6000-6500, he sells all the energy he bought at 5000, making a profit of 1500 per 100 energy -> 150.000 crowns.

Now that may seem.. call it "complicated", and most of those rising prices don't have anything to do with market experts, but with trolls and ignorant people who only want energy fast and NOW.

But the point is, the game gives us a SO LIMITED window of 5 offers, we can't really see the state of the market 5 minutes ago, so you just log and say "puffles, price raised from 5000 to 6200, a shame really", then you surrender to those prices and start using the market like you always did and always will. Because you NEED the market. To craft items you NEED energy, you need 800 energy and there is NOTHING you can do about it but to use the market (or use real money, but that's out of the question in this topic).

Three rings developers are not stupid. As far as I know, this same system was used for some 'Puzzle Pirates' and, correct me if I'm wrong, there's no reason why they shouldn't have had this exact same problem. High energy prices mean the energy you buy with real money is worth more in-game money, which leads people to feel they're buying more than they really are.

TL;DR: /sign for the listing fee. But it's just not gonna happen.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 13:11
#6
Brandermau
Legacy Username
Support Changes

Agreed, there needs to be a way to prevent this kind of behavior and manipulation of the market.
/sign for listing fee

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 13:23
#7
Algol-Sixty's picture
Algol-Sixty
"Pushing" the market in the

"Pushing" the market in the direction it has been headed since the game has gone public is not any sort of rocket science. The vast majority of the increases I've seen have not been due to any sort of market manipulation or "market walls", they are a direct result of too many people wanting CE and far fewer people having any reason to want more crowns than they get via normal game play. More over, the more crowns people get for selling CE, the less CE they need to sell, thus driving the price up even more.

Listing fees are a horrible idea and completely unneeded. People who have more CE/crowns than they know what to do with won't care about a low listing fee, but listing fees will hurt all the new players who are trying to use the market interface to save crowns and are caught up in a rising market. They are the ones that will have to cancel their bids and relist because the market has changed.

The real problem is that the market isn't going up to the equilibrium point were supply equals demand fast enough. Instead of jumping to 7k or 10k or 20k where it will stop going up, it is being drug out over many days. It's like a band-aid that is slowly being pulled off instead of one quick pull to get it over with. To fix this, you need a larger bid increment than 1cr. Simply require all bids to end in a zero, and suddenly, the market will move the the equilibrium point much faster and once there, people will be a little more reluctant to bid over the current high bid because instead of costing 1cr extra, it will cost 10cr.

Now, if you think that 7k, 10k or 20k crowns per 100CE is too much, well that can only be fixed by OOO making crowns useful enough to be worth buying with CE.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 13:49
#8
manoo2k
Legacy Username
@wrs1864

You have a point, but you miss some things on your argument.

Like the fact market has a TERRIBLE interface. I could simply go there, put 10 offers of 12k, and people wouldn't even know they had a 6500 offer 2 mins ago. Most stupid or young players (with high ammount of energy bought with real money) wouldn't care about the price and would make their offers following my game, while later I could cancel them losing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, leaving the market totally deformed by ignorant people, or those desperately needing energy.

2 things are static: the ammount of crowns you earn in dungeons, and the price of the real-money bought energy. While playing in dungeons gives you less and less crowns you need to make your items (since there is a NEED to buy energy, you can't make anything 3 starts and further with Mist Tank), the relative price of the energy you buy with real money goes up and up, implying more people are going to be headed to the idea that buying with real money is a better deal, getting better everyday.

See the point? see why there's nothing being done?. They have EXPERIENCE in this system, they used it in Puzzle Pirates (again, correct me if I'm wrong, never played the game), and they must've been realizing for a long time how market behaives. And I don't think they will be changing anything now.

Wed, 06/08/2011 - 01:27
#9
Skorph
Legacy Username
in puzzle pirate the things

in puzzle pirate the things you 'bought' would also disappear, boats for example would sink, causing people to buy more, and it required both poe and doubloons, in spiral knights, there's nothing, there's nothing to put a large inflow of poe in like poker,spades whatever, and none of your gear breaks so your not rebuying anything, so once you have your final gear, there's NOTHING to put your crowns into except energy, i think this is where the main problem with the game lies, that there is a limit to what you sink crowns in and that nothing breaks, with a system like puzzle pirates uses, things need to 'sink' or degrade needing constant renewal.

Wed, 06/08/2011 - 04:48
#10
Algol-Sixty's picture
Algol-Sixty
Like the fact market has a

Like the fact market has a TERRIBLE interface. I could simply go there, put 10 offers of 12k, and people wouldn't even know they had a 6500 offer 2 mins ago.

No, you can not put 10 offers of 12k on the cr<->CE exchange. If you tried, you would find that those offer would be immediately filled from the right-hand side offers to sell column.

Having a bid increment would tend to keep those two columns closer in price, reducing the amount that players can make by playing in the market. Right now, the 2% fee means that there is usually more than a 2% spread, or 130cr. With the current 1cr bid increment, that's 130 orders. If it was a 10cr increment (e.g. requiring all bids to end with a zero), there could only be 13 orders before the market has to start auto-filling.

A bid increment is the standard technique used to make markets move to the supply/demand equilibrium point quickly. With a bid increment, any sort of trolling people do by dumping lots of crowns (or CE) on the market would be adjusted back soon and it would get this painfully slow rise over with quickly.

They have EXPERIENCE in this system, they used it in Puzzle Pirates (again, correct me if I'm wrong, never played the game), and they must've been realizing for a long time how market behaives.

Sadly, the people who designed the Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates game at OOO 6+ years ago have all either left or been kicked up stairs (the CEO). The Spiral Kinghts team appears to have either copied it, or told to duplicate it, without understanding the fundamentals about *why* it worked in YPP. As the previous poster mentioned, there are a huge number of long term PoE (crown) sinks in YPP. The loss of the understanding of how the economy needs to work for the these kinds of exchanges to function has also effected YPP and it was only after years of yelling about the inflation (no where near as bad as here) that OOO added things like a lottery and a few other PoE (crown) sinks.

The material spawning in YPP is also dramatically different. Early on, YPP was somewhat similar to SK, where people could go out and "forage" for materials, but that lead to an oversupply and large imbalances. So, while YPP was still in beta (and people with a clue about economics were still at OOO), they changed it into a huge PoE (crown) sink.

SK is a different game than YPP, and I don't think things need to be dramatically changed, but it does need a bunch of crown/mat sinks.

Wed, 06/08/2011 - 06:44
#11
Bigindian
I wonder what Three Rings

I wonder what Three Rings thinks about this CE thing.

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