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How defensive is too defensive? Also, mixing and matching.

9 replies [Last post]
Fri, 08/22/2014 - 01:18
Glacies's picture
Glacies

Something I would like to discuss: At what point should I stop investing defense and start investing into health or other things?

Recently I have fallen in love with a setting that few use but is still awesome for using it. Defensive!

Now, I've been running into the problem that I want to be so bulky that I put Bulky's name to shame. But recently I've run into the biggest problem is the decrease in my defensive capabilities. For example, for Elemental-themed monsters I run full Grey Feather Set with Elemental High + Elemental High + Elemental Trinket + Elemental Trinket + Elemental Perk. Now if it wasn't obvious, this is a lot of elemental defense... I mean a lot. (One piece grants 9< Units of Elemental Defense)

Now I understand that there's a decrease in how effective something is when playing defensively. But at what point should I be investing into other things? Testing it, without the trinkets and perk I only take an additional unit from my understanding. Am I basically hitting the threshold with just the elemental high UVs?

The last question is mixing and matching with other defensive sets. How good of an idea is this exactly? (kinda a mix of the first question too) I'm specifically talking about two pieces of specialized pieces of armor and going with what is pretty much 7.3< Units of Normal/Piercing/Elemental. In which case, I'm using a Grey Feather Cowl Elemental High + Mercurial Mail Elemental High + Piercing Trinket + Elemental Trinket + Elemental Perk which gives me this outcome: http://i.imgur.com/AAfcjsX.png

So in the end, is this a good idea? Has this been attempted before? Will this work just as well as a defensive set?

Fri, 08/22/2014 - 04:08
#1
Bopp's picture
Bopp
wiki page Defense?

When a knight's defense is less than half the size of an incoming attack, defense just subtracts from the attack. So adding more defense is good.

The problem is that you may be adding so much defense that you come up to half of the incoming attack. Then the damage calculation seems to switch to a different regime, that we don't understand. But there are seriously diminishing returns?

So I don't know the answer, but I would do this: Measure the attacks that you're typically facing. Play with armor just below half of those attacks and just above half of those attacks, to see how the defense effects change.

Mon, 08/25/2014 - 10:18
#2
Epic-Gear-Knight

Based on my post here (http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/97633#comment-884832) which took the damage calculation from the code in game, you can plot the numbers to see for yourself the decrease in defense effectiveness once you go past the threshold (where DMG = DEF):


Assume fixed DMG (500) and DEF range 50-1000
Def Final Damage
50 475.00
100 450.00
150 425.00
200 400.00
250 375.00
300 350.00
350 325.00
400 300.00
450 275.00
500 250.00
550 189.50
600 165.96
650 151.07
700 140.15
750 131.52
800 124.39
850 118.31
900 113.01
950 108.32
1000 104.11

Without the threshold modifier in place, DEF at 550 would yield 225 DMG (189.5 actual), 750 DEF would yield 125 DMG (131.52 actual), and 1000 DEF would yield 0 DMG (104.11 actual).

Note that just past the threshold you actually block more damage than you would the linear curve, then it curves off and you block less. Around DEF = 731 is when the curves intersect (plot this yourself to see).

Thu, 08/28/2014 - 09:25
#3
Cheshireccat's picture
Cheshireccat
Wait wait wait wait...

Wait wait wait wait... wait.
Does your formula mean we can reverse-engineer the exact number for the amount of defense we have?

Proposed methodology:
I wear full divine (no Normal). I walk into a normal Shankle. Shankle removes 462 pixels of health.
462 pixels now equals 0 defense. ("500 damage"? "475 damage"?).
I wear full Plate. I walk into the same normal Shankle. Shankle removes 0 pixels of health.
Start swapping gear to reduce the amount of Normal Def a few pixels at a time until I take damage. Count the number of pixels of Normal defense in both armor pieces. That equals 104.
Plot the two data points. You now know how many pixels = defense score. Plan for Def 731 when equipping for the clockworks.

Would that work?
--Cheshireccat

Mon, 09/01/2014 - 10:30
#4
Il-Mono-Il's picture
Il-Mono-Il
BUMP

Because this thread deserves more attention.

Tue, 09/09/2014 - 07:48
#5
Cheshireccat's picture
Cheshireccat
BUMP

Because this thread deserves more attention.

@Glacies you should send an e-mail to FlawedKnight. He's digging into some armor/defense stuff and I think you might be able to get both of your questions answered by working together.

Tue, 09/09/2014 - 11:01
#6
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
You will certainly have a

You will certainly have a good chance of being the last guy alive in Roarmulus Shadow lair

Sun, 09/14/2014 - 23:00
#7
Glacies's picture
Glacies

Cheshireccat, I will do that tomorrow since I'm trying to get back into Spiral Knights again. I really would like for this to be found because I don't believe anyone has actually brought this up.

Gear-Storm, that is quite some interesting information that was found. Now I just wish there was a way to actually physically check how much defense you had by exact numbers.

Thu, 09/25/2014 - 13:28
#8
Epic-Gear-Knight

@Cheshireccat: It would be incorrect to believe 731 DEF is the magic number for clockworks. My example there has the big caveat that 731 defense is the crossover point if you receive 500 damage. Damage received from different enemy attacks will vary and may be more or less than 500 damage. Just do not be misled into thinking 731 is a magic defense number/target to strive for.

Plus 731 is the point in which they intersect, not necessarily where you get the most bang for your buck. The optimal defense lies somewhere between the midway point and 731 (ie. defense value between 100% to 146.2% the damage value).

Fri, 09/26/2014 - 05:13
#9
Il-Mono-Il's picture
Il-Mono-Il
@Gear

You made me see things for another point of view. Thank you.

This information will help me make mah Defensive Set more effective.

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