Spiral Knights - Breaking down Chaos cloak set

Breaking down Chaos cloak set

27 replies [Last post]

Tue, 08/26/2014 - 06:51

Holy-Nightmare

Lets face it, Chaos cloak is way overpowered.

My suggestion is to break it up into a set of 3 class armors. (all have universal penalties except where they are pointed out) (type resist is given at the end of each description)

The Bomber line is already filled with the Mad Bomber set so we don't need one there; of course I would like to change the damage resistance to give more variety to the bombers. (lacks curse penalty) (Shadow resistance)

For the Gunner set the name would be "Brash Bandito" and it would be military themed and based on the Pre-GU armors. It would only affect gun CTR and DMG. (lacks freeze penalty) (Elemental resistance)

For the Swordsman set the set would be named the Soricifur set (based on Rabid wolvers) and would be "toxic" themed. It would only affect sword CTR and DMG. (lacks poison penalty) (piercing resistance)

Fun fact: the family Soricidae is home to several species of Shrew, which are in fact one of the few venomous kinds of mammals

______________________________________________________________

Considering each of these armor lines have a linear crafting path each of these would be crafted up from their respective line.
For the current Chaos Cloak we would halve all the boosts it gets and reduce it's defense a little (as penalty for universal boosts).

EDIT: Or make the "class specific Chaos cloak armor" have only half the status penalties that Chaos cloak has. (i.e. Mad Bomber would now be more status resistant than Chaos Cloak)

Tue, 08/26/2014 - 07:54

Sonosuke

(~O ,O)~ +1

Just one thing. If you look at the Wolver sets, there's already one themed after Voltails, the Dusker set.

Tue, 08/26/2014 - 09:38

Holy-Nightmare

Edited sword section from

Edited sword section from voltail to rabid wolver.

Included fun fact

Tue, 08/26/2014 - 11:39

Fangel

Honestly I would do a bit to it myself.

I would keep the chaos set for the most part as is. It's a high-risk high-rewards type deal here where the rewards are terribly higher than the risk. How to balance it? Give it odd numbers!

Seeing as chaos was boosted to match the black kat cowl, I say we try to match it a bit, and two ways to go about it:

Give the hood universal damage bonus of high, but not charge time reduction, and give the cloak CTR high with no damage bonus. This makes mixing and matching chaos a very viable tactic for any class. A bomber might mix the cloak with mad bomber to have CTR ultra if all their bombs aren't level 10 yet. This also means that chaos and BKC now doesn't give universal damage bonus of ultra, and that if you want damage you need to sacrifice CTR. This also makes the chaos cowl the "craftable" BKC.

The other way I see it is the helmet gets damage bonus of medium and CTR low, and the cloak gets CTR medium and damage low. Similar elements as before, and reduces the overall stats slightly, but also makes it so mad bomber is better than chaos for bombers, wolver is better for damage than chaos, etc. Chaos needs to be for everything but not better than everything else at their things.

Tue, 08/26/2014 - 13:20

Holy-Nightmare

SK could probably experiment

SK could probably experiment with the boosts of chaos cloak but I believe a universal Med CTR/DMG boost is fair enough prize for the negative resists.

That, or make the penalties so high that statuses would be as devastating as fire on Valkyrie set.

Tue, 08/26/2014 - 16:45

Sonosuke

"That, or make the penalties so high that statuses would be as devastating as fire on Valkyrie set."

Oh god. The fires... the poor fools that bring the Valkyrie set to FSC....

Tue, 08/26/2014 - 16:54

Fangel

... Never thought of that

That, or make the penalties so high that statuses would be as devastating as fire on Valkyrie set.

That's actually not a bad idea. More glass with same amount of cannon. I like it!

Oh god. The fires... the poor fools that bring the Valkyrie set to FSC....

Scorched representative here... My entire party gave me their remedy capsules but I rarely died.
Would not suggest unless you want a challenge and still roflstomp trojans.

Wed, 08/27/2014 - 00:50

Sir-Pandabear

@Holy-Nightmare

"That, or make the penalties so high that statuses would be as devastating as fire on Valkyrie set."

Do a thing for me.

Go catch fire from a regular fire monster (slag breath will do). Do this wearing full Valkyrie. Then do this wearing full Chaos. Let me know how much difference there is in damage.

In case you can't be bothered doing that, I will tell you the answer: The difference is 0 damage. This is because Chaos already makes you take the maximum amount of status strength from most sources of status in the clockworks.

Wed, 08/27/2014 - 04:30

Sonosuke

(~O ,O)~ #Sonosuks

Or maybe lower the defense even more so it does take off more health than Ancient Plate.

Wed, 08/27/2014 - 07:38

Straight-Line

Wear full proto and have no unique variants on weapons.

Wed, 08/27/2014 - 12:45

#10

Fangel

Keep in mind...

The difference is 0 damage. This is because Chaos already makes you take the maximum amount of status strength from most sources of status in the clockworks.
Increasing the status vulnerabilities also makes it impossible to be resistant to certain statuses via UVs while wearing full chaos.
Also, lockdown would become much more fun to watch the chaos players spasm.

Thu, 08/28/2014 - 08:19

#11

Holy-Nightmare

@Sir-Pandabear

Please compare the fire resistance of Chaos Cowl to the Valkyrie Helm

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Chaos_Cowl

You notice it has a -2

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Valkyrie_Helm

This one has a -3

-2 ≠ -3

Thu, 08/28/2014 - 08:52

#12

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

holy, that's Zeddy. if he says that fire weakness caps at -6, then it's a strong possibility it will.
EDIT: I'll need to rephrase that. actually, it's better to say how fire works.
fire applies a status of a certain strength. it will never be higher than 6. since *most* fire status sources are equal or stronger than +2, -4 weakness is enough to make fire max out.

Thu, 08/28/2014 - 11:07

#13

Fangel

But it isn't just fire...

But shock, curse, poison, etc. will all be lower too, not just fire...

Also I was under the impression Valkyrie gave -4 fire resistance per piece as I can negate the fire vulnerabilities with a divine hood (doesn't give any positives) which should give me +4.

Thu, 08/28/2014 - 11:25

#14

Gbot-Vtwo

Not really bro.....

"Oh god. The fires... the poor fools that bring the Valkyrie set to FSC" Fools? You mean people who want a challenge! I go into FSC all the time with the Valkyrie and i live! Itsa cool challenge i do all the time!

Thu, 08/28/2014 - 12:12

#15

Holy-Nightmare

@ Thunder-The-Bright

Of the tables show in the chart it points out that -4 resistance is different from -6.

@ Fangel
The resistance and weakness of Valkyrie and Divine match up so they negate their fire status. Supposing you mix Chaos with Divine you would end up with a bit of fire resist. This in itself proves that they have different fire weakness levels.

@ rest

So is it a good idea to give each "playstyle" its own chaos cloak equivalent while cutting back on the Chaos cloak (either defensively or offensively)?

Thu, 08/28/2014 - 12:23

#16

Fangel

Well yeah...

I didn't say chaos doesn't have -2 negative, I just said Valkyrie had -4 negative, not -3.
The negatives and the positives match up, and I am immune to minor status as full valkyrie (for poison at least), and that requires at least +7 resistance to pull off, meaning that Valkyrie gives +4 poison per piece, which in turn means -4 fire per piece.

Bringing Chaos cloak down to -4 per piece for every status would be glorious for players such as my self who find a strange happiness seeing a Chaos set user neutralized by a status... Schadenfreude, you could say.

But as for your question, I think that each set has its "high risk, great rewards" set already. We see it in the class armors, and they actually help us resist statuses! Except for mad bomber. Poor mad bomber. Chaos should remain the "jack of all trades" risk-reward as it is only one set, but it shouldn't be better at the class armor's jobs of using their weapons. Wolver line should be better than chaos with swords, gunslinger line with guns, bomber with bombs. But if you mix your weapon types up then chaos would be a nice alternative.

Thu, 08/28/2014 - 13:08

#17

Gbot-Vtwo

Thu, 08/28/2014 - 23:28

#18

Sir-Pandabear

@Holy-Nightmare

In the scale in the chart linked, status strength goes from -6 (weakest) to +8 (strongest). Any more or any less than that does not exist.

Most monsters inflict strong status (+4). Haze bombs inflict minor (+0), and most handguns inflict moderate (+2).

Chaos has a resistance of -2 per piece, this makes a total of -4. Valkyrie has -4 per piece, making a total of -8.

When getting hit by a monster, you receive +4 status, and, pay close attention to this bit, your armour deducts your resistance from that result. So if your armour has +4 fire resistance, you end up at 0. 4-4 = 0.

Some final results:
Full vog (+8)
4 - 8 = -4

Full vog with double max and two fire pendants and the sprite perk vs fire (+23)
4 - 23 = -6 <- That's the cap

Full chaos (-4)
4 - (-4) = +8

Full valkyrie (-8)
4 - (-8) = 8

But it's true as Fangel said, Chaos would be harder to mitigate, and the penalty for stepping into haze bombs would be much larger. I'm not convinced that's enough.

Fri, 08/29/2014 - 05:31

#19

Holy-Nightmare

@ Sir-Pandabear

Thanks for explaining it in depth, this does bring up some possible alternative solutions to this problem of "class specific Chaos cloak armor".

1. Weaken Chaos Cloak's Offensive power to just High or Med (medium is my preference).

2. Instead of further weakening Chaos Cloak's status resistance make the "class specific Chaos cloak armor" have only half the penalties of Chaos Cloak (i.e. Mad Bomber is now more status resistant than Chaos Cloak).

3. Both 1 and 2

Fri, 08/29/2014 - 22:17

#20

Fehzor

My thoughts on chaos are that it is fine offensively. Why? Because it's in a different class of armor than everything else as the glass cannon set.

Defensively, this is not the case. Defensively, it can be mitigated easily and taken advantage of. Further, it is just stupidly strong when there are no status effects present on a level.

To fix this, I would propose:
-Remove elemental defense + weaken normal defense
-Negative 4 stages of each status, making it impossible to come out ahead with chaos alone and far more difficult otherwise.

To balance the armor with mad bomber, I would propose one of the following for mad bomber:
-Same defensive balance as chaos
-MSI low + bomb damage high + bomb ctr high per piece (high is for lockdown AND unheated bombs)
-Plausibly a new bomb stat or ability, if possible

Change the armor to not represent the 'glass cannon playstyle'.
-lowish level of shadow + normal defense + 4 shock
-Bomb CTR low
-Bomb damage med

To fix black kat cowl, I would suggest:
-Same defensive stats as chaos; no ice resistance

Wed, 06/10/2015 - 16:47

#21

Zeedenn

vary good points on this topic

i agree with most of every thing you have said.
you most be a pretty good bomber you self

Wed, 06/10/2015 - 19:39

#22

Blandaxt

it's..

It's not good to necro something that is almost a year old with just i agree. If you are not goign to add on to the thread's thought pattern, it is best to leave it alone until you have substantial thoughts on how you can make the thread better ffrom where it left off. Anyway, this is just my advice, not a warning or a directive. Do what you like, just giving you my thoughts on your actions.

Wed, 06/10/2015 - 19:43

#23

Holy-Nightmare

@ Zeeden

Thanks for the compliments, I do bomb when the situation requires it but I am more of a "Jack of all trades" kind of knight.

@ Blandaxt

Actually I put a link to this thread when Zeeden created one that touched on the same topic.
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/110304

Wed, 06/10/2015 - 19:52

#24

Blandaxt

ohh

I understand, hehe i guess he felt like congradulating you. If only we forumers could send private messages to each other and block some other specific forumers messages. Or be able to thumb up a post that was posted no matter how long ago. This way we can show support without having to post anything and necroing the thread. Oh well....just gotta do with what we have.

Thu, 06/11/2015 - 08:54

#25

Holy-Nightmare

@ Bladaxt

I don't mind if threads get "necroed" if the person doing so is supporting the idea or helping in the suggestion process. Letting a thread lay untouched for a while makes it so players can look at it with new eyes. Necroing threads shouldn't be for the sake of bringing attention to yourself (example: going to dead thread and typing LAST POST is a bad necro)

A simple thumbs up or thumbs down system for the forum would be nice, it would certainly help developers distinguish between threads that are controversial and threads that are highly approved by the community.

Thu, 06/11/2015 - 09:42

#26

Fehzor

Well I certainly hope that all of the 'new eyes' see post number 20 because it's about how I still feel regarding the set.

Thu, 06/18/2015 - 12:34

#27

Holy-Nightmare

@ Fehzor

Why not remove the normal defense bar instead of the other? After all it comes from the Elemental defensive line so it makes sense to keep that defense.

Mad Bomber is fine like it is but if the extra power you suggest gets added then cutting the defense would work.

The other Mad bomber change you suggest sounds like it should be part of a Bomber update, I would certainly enjoy it and so would a lot of other players. In fact why not have a whole chain of bomber lines modeled like the GU gear with 3 buffs (MSI, CTR, and DMG) for bombers, one +4 resist and one -4 resist?

BK sets can keep the freeze resist so long as ALL the other status resists (even stun and sleep even though sleep isn't currently in the game) get put as low as possible (that way it would be impossible to even get neutral with max UVs) and cut the defense a bit. Maybe with Shadow defense equal to the Vitasuit Deluxe and no normal resist at all.

Search

Breaking down Chaos cloak set