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Bombing in its current state.

31 replies [Last post]
Sun, 08/31/2014 - 12:17
Sky-Hawk

While I understand balance has to lie somewhere, bombing in this game is the least balanced/varitable of all the classes a player can enter. Not only does it lack the damage of most swords and guns, each bomb is the same: An AoE That has no damage on it. The only exception are 2 bomb-types (shards and vortexes,) but they are easily avoidable while in PvP.

I mean , since when does it make sense that a Sword can deal more damage than 100s of quills lashing out at you at once?
How about a bullet that hurts you more than a MASSIVE explosion, and has less of a cool-down period in between?

This is a problem both in PvE and PvP due to the fact that unless you're solo-running, most people would rather have another person with a sword than a person with offensive bombs.

So what's the solution?

A few things could help bring bombing into popularity:

- Bombing Damages are increased to appropriate proportions.
Let's face it, it's A FREAKIN' BOMB! This is something that should be completely decimating people who get hit by it, not tap them in the shoulder and tickle their sides. Where it takes something maybe 2 shots at me to kill me, it'll take me 4 bombs (or more) to kill them.

- Bombing gear reworks / Additions.
I like the direction Three Rings took with the RSS Rework (as painful as it is to say, they were pretty strong,) but in doing so, they took away the bomber's only powerhouse / different bomb. Bombing needs more flavor, and more diversity in its pool, quirky bombs that are hard to judge.

Also, all bombing gear right now only provides elemental + Normal Damage Resistances. That doesn't seem right considering one of them's made of Mercury (The normal armor-set offers up piercing defense.)

- UV's unique to bombs?
Why haven't some bomb-unique UV's come out yet? Fuse time, bomb damage and even Area of Effect should all be fair-game all things considered. Swords are able to put out damage up-close, but bombs should have some safety and reach.

This is merely one bomber's opinion, but I feel as though OOO should look into this a bit. Bombing's fun as all else, but the lack of balance leads me to believe that it's not looked into as much as the other classes. Please, OOO, consider livening up bombing a bit! ^^

Sun, 08/31/2014 - 12:24
#1
Magnicth's picture
Magnicth
You bring up a good point,

You bring up a good point, and I agree with you, but this thread really should be in the suggestion forums, not general discussion, as you are suggesting that there needs to be changes and balances made to bombs. So I would suggest moving the thread to the suggestion forums, where people can better discuss ideas on ways to improve bombs.

Sun, 08/31/2014 - 13:10
#2
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
gods ain't gonna help you, son.

I disagree. bombs are meant to be used with great groups of monsters, and they decimate them. I don't find them underpowered at all. you just haveto use them on groups of monster, not on just one or two at a time.

bombs are not all the same. the blast bombs are different from DBB, that is different from vortex, that is different shards, that is different from mist. they all have a purpouse, except for shards that really feel underpowered if you are not using them on something weak to the damage you are dealing.
bomber armor does need new pieces, though.

fuse time reduction can screw up timing, and doesn't really mean more DPS because you are placing the same amount of bombs.
bomb damage already exists.
I don't see the appeal of AoE increase, or at least not for 5* bombs. at 5*, all moving sources of projectiles come inside the range of your bomb before attacking you (assuming you are at the center of it).

I call Zeddy for more experienced opinion of this.

Sun, 08/31/2014 - 13:14
#3
Bopp's picture
Bopp
disagree

Dark Briar Barrage and Dark Retribution let you slaughter everything in PvE. And they're party-friendly. Somehow you left them out of your "all bombs are haze, shard, and vortex bombs".

And it's easier to get UVs on bombs than on swords and guns, because there is only one to care about (CTR) as opposed to two (CTR and ASI). I bomb frequently, pleasurably, and effectively.

Sun, 08/31/2014 - 13:20
#4
Seiran's picture
Seiran
lol

You know, one of the things that bombs really excel at in comparison to swords/guns is being able to safely and/or efficiently deal with large amounts of enemies.

Almost none of those situations existed before. 'Swarm' type monsters (beetles, etc), compounds, and lots of events ended up creating situations where players would have to deal with inordinate amounts of monsters.

And players complained "omg fake difficulty" "omg unfair so hard they're after our CE/sparks" "throw more monsters pls /sarcasm".

I can't speak too well for other bombers, but I was able to do things like solo grinchlin assault on elite with no spark use thanks to bombs like Nitronome. They also do extremely well in decimating arenas.

In general (ignore the PVP side of this for a bit), bombs suffer from the same issue that Troikas and catalyzers do in comparison to other heavy swords/other guns: They're easily worse choices than other weapons when dealing with few enemies but easily multiply in utility/DPS when you have 5+ enemies to deal with, with the additional problem of little playstyle variation because all you can do is charge and drop them.

If you make them more powerful (damage-wise), that multiplication might become way too great (insert people complaining about how OOO makes things too easy for players! BAW~!), but if you come up with new behavior (ex: shard bomb as is) it risks either being overshadowed by other bombs or completely outclassing them.

Sun, 08/31/2014 - 13:51
#5
Skepticraven's picture
Skepticraven
↓

Bombs cover a large area and don't need to aim at the expense of needing great timing.
Guns deal good damage at a distance at the expense of often requiring great aim.
Swords deal good damage with high speed at the expense of being vulnerable to enemy attacks.

There are a couple new bomb styles that I would like and have commented on their respective suggestion threads.

Sun, 08/31/2014 - 14:37
#6
Arelic's picture
Arelic
!

This actually gives me a new idea in regards to bombs, allowing me to readjust one suggestion that I already had without a response. Thanks.

Sun, 08/31/2014 - 14:54
#7
Meep-The-Bank's picture
Meep-The-Bank
Meep.

Time to let me doing some extracting on your original post and make you think otherwise.

'' Not only does it lack the damage of most swords and guns, each bomb is the same: An AoE That has no damage on it.''

Just no. As you said, the vortex and the shard bombs are an exception however what you said is false. Even though some bombs are used for causing statuses, there is a small radius were the bomb actually does damage. (About 1 block from where you put down the bomb)

''Also, all bombing gear right now only provides elemental + Normal Damage Resistances. That doesn't seem right considering one of them's made of Mercury (The normal armor-set offers up piercing defines.) ''

I agree with you however to be honest, any gear can be used even if it's not seen as bombing gear. The Ice Queen Set is great for bombers as it stops stun and freeze from affecting the player at times where they could be affecting an entire barrage of monsters in an arena.

''- UV's unique to bombs?
Why haven't some bomb-unique UV's come out yet? Fuse time, bomb damage and even Area of Effect should all be fair-game all things considered. Swords are able to put out damage up-close, but bombs should have some safety and reach.''

Fuse time is a no. It is an ideal uv to have however it could possibly make bombing too easy. Nitronome could be easily spammed with ctr max and fuse time max, vortex bombs would easily drag enemies into you as you don't have time to move out of the vortex. Area Of Effect increase would also be disastrous.

I don't believe you understand what bombs have to offer. In PVE, they allow for statuses to happen immediately on a monster, aiding the team or causing instant damage to an entire army of monsters. The fact is, bombs are suppose to enable an AoE effect, being a part of crowd control and helping the player deal with mobs in ways that a sword or gun can't. No sword should be putting statuses on someone quickly nor should any gun be able to drag monsters into one position. The use of bombs can really help a team in so many ways and to be honest, I find them to be more outstanding than guns or swords.

Sun, 08/31/2014 - 15:30
#8
Glittertind

"Nitronome could be easily spammed with ctr max and fuse time max" -Mengh

I don't think fuse time is such a bad idea.

Fuse time as an UV that goes to very high would probably not be such a good idea though, but what about a new armour set that gives fuse time low on both pieces, like they did with Mercurial (Demo) and MSI?

"The fact is, bombs are suppose to enable an AoE effect, being a part of crowd control and helping the player deal with mobs in ways that a sword or gun can't." -Mengh

I'm not sure how I feel about this. I agree about the AoE, CC and support role being the most important things for bombers, however I would certainly not frown on seeing a bomb that goes a bit more outside of these. A purely offensive bomb... Guns will be getting their updates/upgrades, and they just got Swordbomb: The Gun (which I guess is so-so). Swords with their Brandishes and whatnot has a bit of this and that, but certainly not lacking in AoE charge attacks.

Sun, 08/31/2014 - 16:07
#9
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
gods ain't gonna help you, son.

there are two purely offensive bombs right now, they are DBB and DR.

DBB hasn't got any knockback, that pretty much means you hit more enemies easily.
DR is, well, DR. it shreds anything that isn't resistant to shadow.

Sun, 08/31/2014 - 17:54
#10
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

With the newest handgun releases (tortoguns, mostly), I would say that there isn't an excuse to NOT to give bombers better single target options and ranged weapons.

The best move that SEGA could make would be to buff the existing shard bombs while re-implementing the old ones, but as 4 pure damage versions of the old radiant sun shards, ignoring the old ionized salt bomb. Other bomb tweaks are also needed for this, but that's a massive tangent that I'm not going to go on right now or here. I have before, though. Go find that if you care.

Mon, 09/01/2014 - 05:04
#11
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

Bombing has problems, but I didn't see you bring up any of them.

"bombing in this game is the least balanced/varitable of all the classes a player can enter"

I disagree with this a lot! Bombs are really different from each other, and it's the most balanced category of weapons (even without ignoring shards). Few other weapons play as radically different within a single weapon tree as Nitro and BAB. Like, they don't have the same application at all. Sudaruska and Triglav are basically the same sword. CIV is just a bad Leviathan Blade. I don't know about anyone using Storm Driver and Nova Driver differently. Gran Faust and Divine Avenger work a bit different with the charge, and sometimes that curse does something. Blitz Needle and Pepperbox play pretty differently. That's the most radical differences in the same line I can think of for swords and guns.

But bombs? With Nitro, you whittle down enemies and keep them at a semi-safe distance, constantly judging where you should plant your next one, and dashing around quickly in patterns. Irontech and BAB don't play like that at all; you move slower, and need to start using it long before you're actually crowded. The two bombs seem similar on paper, but Irontech has a bit more DPS than BAB, while BAB is a terrible monster of a bomb that will send enemies flying outside of your screen if there's room for it.

Dark Briar Barrage works differently from Nitro. Mostly in that it's severely easier to use, but it lacks the interruption needed to keep safe in the highest levels of play (shadow lairs). That's not to say it's not usable there, just that it will provide damage, and only damage, rather than Nitro's knockback which can be a lifesaver.

Dark Retribution plays like nothing else does. It took me a while to use it effectively against gremlins. It has the highest DPS-to-safety ratio per target in the game, especially after RSS was removed, perhaps until the mixmaster gun was introduced. 90% movement speed while charging it, a planting time of once per second, up to 12 hit per enemy each planting, and unlike autoguns it has no problem hitting large groups of enemies in one go.

No two mist bombs are the same. I believe this to be so self-evident that I'm not sure I see the point in writing down why. Voltedge and Combuster are basically the same sword. Voltaic Tempest and Shivermist Buster are not. Every mist bomb covers a huge area with basically 100% status infliction, and that severely changes how any battle a mist bomber is present in is going to play out. Tell me if these all sound like the fight to you:

  • Ash of Agni: Most enemies are going to run after the mist bomber. They will all eventually die. The bomber can either kite them at entirely safe distances, or stack up on fire between the enemies to make them die faster. If there are T3 menders present, those will have to be dealt with before the battle can end.
  • Shivermist Buster: Everyone can take their time to prepare their strongest attack, unleashing it at the enemy's back without worrying about retaliation. The mist bomber himself can even change between freezing and doing something else. There's time.
  • Voltaic Tempest: The go-to bomb in PvP. In PvE, it's mostly used to 'glue' mobs of enemies together.
  • Venom Veiler: Enemies deal severely less damage, take a bit more damage, and any healers on the stage will make your enemies die faster. The fight just overall becomes easier.
  • Stagger Storm: Also makes the enemies easier, but makes it harder to get hit and easier to get hits in rather than reducing the punishment for it.

I could write a book about shard bombs. I nearly did once.

The problems bombing actually have

  • Severely broken, unbalanced swords and guns overshadowing them. (Split damage swords, Blitz Needle.)
  • Impact of CTR is too high. Fused Demo suit ultimately provides more DPS than Bombastic. You can have a gun or a sword with no damage, ASI or CTR. Using bombs without dedicated bomber equipment or Chaos is cumbersome and unrewarding.
Mon, 09/01/2014 - 07:07
#12
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
I see bombs as being the most

I see bombs as being the most UNDERUSED of all the weapon types since new players aren't given many choices that are truly viable. (lol that newb crafted a shard bomb)

Why run around planting Fiery Vaporizers that cover 2% of the field when you can just sword/gun spam whatever you come across?

Mon, 09/01/2014 - 07:52
#13
Autofire's picture
Autofire
You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Well, one of the problems is that there is not a very high skill ceiling. Well, at least that's what I've heard a long time ago. There is some planning in where you plant bombs, especially when you have friends that you don't want to screw up. However, if you're solo, then that problem goes away, making things easier.

While it doesn't entirely apply to Spiral Knights, this is what I intend on doing to bombs in my (sidescroller) fangame. Kicking and throwing would probably mess up the feel of bombs in Spiral Knights, and having bombs damage the player would make the bomb a suicide/troll weapon. The only one I find viable could be Short Fusing.

EDIT: @Holy-Nightmare: I wouldn't say 2%. If you're in an Arena, FV can cover a quarter of the room or so. And it doesn't really matter if it doesn't get the whole room as long as you're kiting those monsters into the haze.

Mon, 09/01/2014 - 08:09
#14
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Zeddy You are right that

@ Zeddy

You are right that using bombs without CTR boosting armor is bad but few bombs circumvent this just by their utility or natural abilities.

Sun and Salt Shard bombs deal more powerful statuses than Hazes and have a fast enough charge time (even at level 5 with just the natural low CTR it is faster than some bombs at high CTR) to make for a fair status spreading bomb.

With Vortex bombs you can make up for the CTR loss with distance, this way you still lead enemies into the vortex. Considering this is a utility and not a damage bomb it doesn't need CTR just a wide enough space to maneuver (and allies intelligent enough to wait with their Acheron charges till a mass of enemies are caught)

Mon, 09/01/2014 - 10:29
#15
Glittertind

"there are two purely offensive bombs right now, they are DBB and DR." -Thunder-The-Bright

Eugh well, true, except I wouldn't say they are the only "two purely offensive bombs." These, along with bombs like Nitro, are labelled as "offensive bombs."
However, you missed the point, the bombs you mentioned still has the area of effect circles, DBB has great knockdown for soft-bodied targets which I'd slap under CC, they're pretty normal bombs I'd say. Not much magic, really.
But most importantly; they deal bomb-tier damage like any other bomb.

I think Fehzor worded it quite well:

"With the newest handgun releases (tortoguns, mostly), I would say that there isn't an excuse to NOT to give bombers better single target options and ranged weapons." -Fehzor

Mon, 09/01/2014 - 12:12
#16
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
gods ain't gonna help you, son.

nitrome has massive knockback, DBB hasn't. this is a major difference. you can't just say "they all have circle AoE". it's like saying that most hanguns have a three bullet clip, that doesn't mean that valiance is equal to supernova.
bombs have circular AoE, that's how they work, it doesn't mean that every bomb is equal. you cited vortex, and vortex has a circular AoE.
then, what zeddy said.

Mon, 09/01/2014 - 13:03
#17
Blitz-Winger's picture
Blitz-Winger
What about armors?

What if they made a bomber armor set that wouldn't have great defenses but, would let you kick your bombs a bit after you placed them? Or maybe a set that would increase your move speed while charging? OOO could make a bunch of armors or shields that'd affect the way that you use bombs.

Mon, 09/01/2014 - 13:21
#18
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Blitz-winger

Interesting mechanic ideas.

Kicking would be interesting to see in action, I can think of places where this could be useful and others where this could be bad.

Move speed increase while charging would be useful on slow bombs but could make it dangerous in some places (with floor traps).

I would love more damage and status resistance bomber armors and a shield that increases Bomb CTR would be sweet.

Mon, 09/01/2014 - 14:09
#19
Glittertind

"bombs have circular AoE, that's how they work, it doesn't mean that every bomb is equal." -Thunder-The-Bright

Missing the point. I never said every bomb is equal, and I never mentioned vortexes. I'm just pointing at what's been pointed at before; if guns and swords gets to have a bit of fun outside of what they're strictly meant for, why not bombs. Why not make a bomb with no circular AoE, or one that actually has decent single-target-damage.

Mon, 09/01/2014 - 14:23
#20
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
gods ain't gonna help you, son.

goddam I got confused.
anyway, I find bombs fun anyway, even when facing few enemies, so I don't see the point.

Mon, 09/01/2014 - 18:48
#21
Blitz-Winger's picture
Blitz-Winger
Bomb mechanics

Looking back at my previous post, they're are only 4 types of bombs mechanics. A status focused bomb, a bomb that creates a vortex, a bomb that explodes into smaller ones, and just regular explosives. But rather than only making some armor sets that affect bombs, it would be nice to see bombs that work completely different than the others.

Like a bomb that when placed, would stick to any enemy that steps on it, and would detonate on them causing a larger explosion than if it wasn't stepped on. Or a bomb that after placed would chase enemies but would make you move slower when charging. And you can combine the sets with these bombs so you can kick the stickybomb to an enemy or move at a normal rate while carrying the bombchu.

Mon, 09/01/2014 - 15:11
#22
Glittertind

"anyway, I find bombs fun anyway, even when facing few enemies, so I don't see the point." -Thunder-The-Bright

I didn't mean fun in that sense, I too have lots of fun with the way bombs are, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I'm thinking more of 'fun' like how Tortofist is so different from other guns. It's unique and like a small breath of fresh air, even if it wasn't necessarily a huge hit among everyone. It let gunners play with something new that guns couldn't really do before.

Mon, 09/01/2014 - 15:40
#23
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
gods ain't gonna help you, son.

then you want something new, not something inherently fun.
that being said, I don't think I remember any good ideas about new bombs. square AoE is just that, square AoE. there have been some "ring" bombs and quake bombs suggestions, but one is almost vortex and one is DBB.

Mon, 09/01/2014 - 16:12
#24
Glittertind

True, square does sound... Rather square... Triangle being not all that much better either.

I've been playing with an idea of a bomb in my head, where you basically place a bomb on the ground, and when it goes off it shoots one (or maybe three or something...) 1-tile-thick lightning bolt in a random direction with random range from 3-8 tiles, dealing pretty decent damage to anything in that direction. I know I'd find that fun, but others might not... Understandably, ha ha. Might not be all that usable/effective/optimal, but both new and fun in my eyes.

Mon, 09/01/2014 - 20:38
#25
Sonosuke's picture
Sonosuke
@Blitz-Winger

Bomb bowling

Tue, 09/02/2014 - 13:06
#26
Baron-Von-Blubba
I am a pure bomber, I use

I am a pure bomber, I use nothing but bombs all the time.

I have zero complaints with the current state of bombing. I think it works just fine and I really enjoy the challenges it presents.

Each bomb has its own use and niche, even shard bombs. No bomb is truly "useless" or "underpowered". The people who say this (not necessarily you) are sadly unimaginative.

The way of the pure bomber is one of foresight, foolishness and a devilish pinch of ingenuity. You are there to support your fellow knights or to get "creative" going solo (my personal favorite). Any companion you are fighting along side who would complain about permanently crowd-controlled/poisoned/shocked monsters in addition to the damage you bring is no friend of yours!

There are things bombers can do and get through easily that gunners and swordsmen simply can't. I can't speak for LD as I do not participate in it personally - I'm speaking for the PVE side of bombing exclusively.

If you're having a problem with bombing in it's current state (not YOU the OP but "you" in general), it may simply be that bombing is not for you.

None of this has been said in anger or in an attempt to "flame" you or anyone who agrees with you.

Tue, 09/02/2014 - 15:46
#27
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright
gods ain't gonna help you, son.

bubba, I still believe that shard bombs have something like 3* damage on enemies that aren't weak to the damage you are dealing. I'm relieved from my decision to not craft a deadly shard bomb right now. I went for SSS.

Wed, 09/03/2014 - 06:59
#28
Nurdell's picture
Nurdell
Different AOEs

There have been some interesting suggestions on the front of different areas of effect: Cone shaped, Thunder bomb that triggers random lightning bolts, Bombs that produce links to previously placed bombs (and I can't remember/imagine anymore) Oh well, I just can't wait to see what bomber update will bring :)
As somebody already mentioned, compounds and mini monsters were introduced to help bombers. And they do it just fine in my opinion. I wouldn't mind seeing some mini monsters in random other levels though.

Thu, 09/04/2014 - 06:12
#29
Baron-Von-Blubba
Bunny Compounds are seriously

Bunny Compounds are seriously my favorite thing ever. Haha.

I agree about Shard Bombs, they do seem weak - but they are not without their uses. And it's because I can actually say I have a use for them, where they are useful, that I say I don't mind things the way they are. I really like use them on Vanaduke or anything else I don't feel quite safe approaching in my typical suicide bomber manner.

Would I like to have them be more viable overall? Sure, why not. But as it is, I see the pantheon of bombs as an artist's palette - each with it's own individual usefulness.

But I'm crazier than an outhouse rat, so who really cares what I think!

Thu, 09/04/2014 - 06:48
#30
Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear

I've found shardbombing to be perhaps the very slowest method to kill Vanaduke, being both risiker and slower than using Nitro/DBB, which in turn is slower than DR/Acheron.

It's a bit sad. One set is supposed to be better on crowds compared to single targets, while the other set is a set of weapons with shadow damage. I see no justification for either set outperforming shards against a boss. Vanaduke being a big guy with plenty of opportunities to get multihit should be the one area in which shards excel, but they just don't.

Thu, 09/04/2014 - 07:09
#31
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Sir-pandabear

Any bomber who risks their butt to put a Shocking Salt bomb under the Royal Jelly should be greatly rewarded (instead of 9 hits we get 3).

Anyway the old shards might have good for Vana.....

The only use for shards I have is for spreading that moderate shock, breaking up jelly hordes easily, and (Surprise!) taking out gremlin Mortafires (the shards get behind them and that flinch/shock ruins them)

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