Spiral Knights - Special Fire Crystal Alchemy Machine at Core Terminal

Special Fire Crystal Alchemy Machine at Core Terminal

20 replies [Last post]

Fri, 09/05/2014 - 12:45

Neoretro

ORIGINAL POST:

Due to the continuing lack of Radiant Fire Crystals, it has been previously suggested to allow crafting of greater-quality Fire Crystals as well as lesser-quality ones.

HOWEVER, the logical argument AGAINST this is that allowing upward alchemy progression of Fire Crystals would provide an inclination for people to avoid the deeper levels for the sake of easier gameplay. Therefore, I present to you a solution for both of these seemingly opposing concerns.

We already have special Alchemy Machines for Sprite Food and Event Gear. I propose that a new type of Alchemy Machine should be placed at the Core Terminal. This machine would contain recipes ONLY ACCESSIBLE THROUGH THE MACHINE ITSELF, allowing the crafting of higher-quality Fire Crystals from crystals one star below the ones crafted, rather than from crystals one star above, which our current recipes already allow.
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EDIT #1, PART 1: THIS SECTION OF THE ORIGINAL POST IS OUT OF DATE

Since this machine would only exist at the Core Terminal, players will obviously be forced to brave their way through at least some of the endgame content instead of being able to get Radiant Crystals by crafting up all the way from the crystals found in Tier 1.

END OUT-OF-DATE SECTION OF ORIGINAL POST
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RESUME ORIGINAL POST:

As some may believe this to remain unbalanced, I make another suggestion: limit the number of times one can click this machine's "Transmute" button per day, and have it reset every day at the same time. As an additional method of trying to find a player-preferred balance in this proposed game mechanic, I leave the suggested crafting costs and maximum number of daily transmutations up to you, readers.
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EDIT #1, PART 2:

It has been brought to my attention that I had failed to consider the Tier-1 and 2 players when bringing this idea to the forums. In order to rectify this mistake, I suggest additional machines at all Clockwork Terminals, as well as in the Subtowns - Moorcroft Manor and Emberlight. However, to make sure players still need to progress through the more difficult depths, the recipes at these machines will be limited to whichever crystals can be found in that stratum.

To clarify:

Tier 1 Terminal Fire Crystal Alchemy Machine: 1-star Fire Crystals may be crafted from 0-star Fire Crystals.

Moorcroft Manor Fire Crystal Alchemy Machine: 2 and 1-star Fire Crystals may be crafted from 1 and 0-star Fire Crystals, respectively.

Tier 2 Terminal Fire Crystal Alchemy Machine: 3, 2, and 1-star Fire Crystals may be crafted from 2, 1, and 0-star Fire Crystals, respectively.

Emberlight Fire Crystal Alchemy Machine: 4, 3, 2, and 1-star Fire Crystals may be crafted from 3, 2, 1, and 0-star Fire Crystals, respectively.

Tier 3 Terminal Fire Crystal Alchemy Machine: 5, 4, 3, 2, and 1-star Fire Crystals may be crafted from 4, 3, 2, 1, and 0-star Fire Crystals, respectively.

Core Fire Crystal Alchemy Machine: Same as Tier 3 Terminal Fire Crystal Alchemy Machine.
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Now, this addendum to my idea leaves some additional questions regarding balance:

1.a. Now that the hypothetical Fire Crystal Alchemy Machine would not be limited to endgame players, should there still be daily limits as to how many times a Knight may press the "Transmute" button?

...b. If so, should the limit be a total which applies to pressing the button on ANY of these machines, or should each separate machine have its own daily limit of "Transmute" presses? If you completely reject the idea for a daily Transmutation limit for the hypothetical Fire Crystal Alchemy Machine, then you do not need to answer this question.

Sat, 09/06/2014 - 00:39

Fe-Tarkus

Eh... This is not in the style of the game to have such restrictive conditions on something that requires regular use. I think there have been better suggestions on this topic. And there are no details on the pricing of the transmutation.

Sat, 09/06/2014 - 17:41

Neoretro

Could you please point me towards one of these better suggestions? A link perhaps? I've searched all kinds of complaint threads, and most, if not all solutions resulted in another part of the game becoming pointless - in most cases, going past Tier 2.

This way, all previous functionality (at least functionality not already messed up by an actual update such as the forge update itself) is kept. Like I said, I left the costs and daily transmutation limit up to other posters in this thread to allow more flexibility for the general idea. In flexibility is the opportunity for players to find the right balance for themselves. If I set the costs and limits myself, some would believe it to still be too hard to get Radiants, and others might consider it too easy. I was hoping the forumers could work together on this to decide the perfect balance.

You said it was restrictive. However, AS AN EXAMPLE of how this might work:
If the maximum daily number of crafts was, say, 30, and you needed 5 Shining Crystals to get 3 Radiants, then, given a large enough supply of Shining crystals (more than 150), you could make a maximum of 90 Radiant crystals on one day. That's already a lot more than are currently being found on runs through the Clockworks. The thing is, we ARE still finding them in the Clockworks, so crafting that many may not be necessary in the first place, and therefore you won't use up all of your Shinings in one go if you're willing to go more slowly. Every little bit helps.

Sat, 09/06/2014 - 22:47

Fe-Tarkus

I thought about it a bit and I don't think it's restrictive anymore, just unsettling to me, as if one really wanted to burn their money, they could buy Radiants from Kozma.

Anyhow the biggest problem with your suggestion is that it has absolutely no use for anything other than Radiant Fire Crystals. T2 players can't use it to upgrade their Glowing Fire Crystals to Shining Fire Crystals because they can't regularly reach the core terminal.

This would be a machine for a singular purpose, to craft Shinings into Radiants, for the players that reach the core terminal are all players who have surpassed all the previous stratums.

Sun, 09/07/2014 - 20:03

Neoretro

Now, the point about limited access to lower-tier players, I'll admit I foolishly hadn't thought of. It's been so long since I started playing that I sometimes fail to remember I used to be new once.

Maybe the Subtowns and Terminals could have machines as well, but containing only the recipes to craft Crystals both equal to and below the rank-based star level requirement for clearance at that depth? If that doesn't solve the problem you've just shown me, then I've got nothing else, and I'll have to graveyard this, but I'll leave it up for now.

Mon, 09/08/2014 - 19:46

Fe-Tarkus

Yeah if you could craft all the fire crystals that you could find in that tier, it'd work.

I recently splurged 80kcr or so, so I could bump one of my other characters into T3 for farming because I was sick of my two 4* weapons being stuck at level 5 when I spam my Volatile Catalyzer charges and occasionally use my Winmillion charge.

Tue, 09/09/2014 - 18:40

Neoretro

Thanks for your input, Fe-Tarkus. I will add the fix in an edit to my original post. I will also leave the original text in place so this conversation makes sense to any others who would view it.

To anyone else who may be reading this: I encourage you to bring up any additional flaws you can find, and any solutions you can think of to said problems. Even if you just tell me about problems with the idea, then I can still try my best to find reasonable solutions. I would like this idea refined as much as possible, and IF the people at Three Rings ever take notice, I hope this can at least inspire them, as long as such inspiration does not further thicken the barrier between free and paying players.

Tue, 09/09/2014 - 19:08

Eltrooper

Here's the thing...

The only crystals that are difficult to find are Radient (5*) and cracked (0*)fire crystals. Radients drop after depth 25 and cracked crystals don't drop at all I am fairly sure. Honestly, no one cares about cracked because the only useful applications they have are levelling your starting given gear (especially cyclops cap and fencing jacket) for T1 lockdown and if you really want the bonuses in the other tiers. Also they are quite cheap, so if you really wanted them it wouldn't be a huge investment levelling them up.
Radients on the other hand are in high demand and wanted by almost everyone. The other crystals are easy enough to get once you reach a stratum that they are common in.
In other words (unless I have really overlooked something) the other alchemy machines wouldn't be needed. The other crystals are common enough that a machine wouldn't be needed. Also I suggest putting the machines instead at clockworks terminals only because people can just open a party in Moorcroft and use their 30 crafts of dim fire crystals to make warm ones or something similar in Emberlight. You usually have to work to get to terminals, especially the core terminal.
~Elt

Tue, 09/09/2014 - 19:23

Setakat

My 5 cents for the Forge/Fire Crystal problem

Fire Crystals after all, are just a concentrated, crystallized form of those heat orbs found in the CW. Why must they be so functionally different?

My proposed solution is to change the gear forging system to be the same as the pet forge, and instead of feeding mats, we use fire crystals to apply a surge of heat. Weapons can only have so many (5?) crystals applied before they need to cool down, similar to the pets appetite.
Removing needing to use fire crystals to level up, and just have our gear autolevel when heat collected = 100%
Have fire crystals behave the same as mats to for our pets (so higher * crystals give more heat, and lower * gives less, amounts vary depending on gear * level)
Also have gear slowly heat as well, but not to the same slow drag as our pets.
This would give those who spam vana the option to heat their 5* gear faster, since the mission gives a massive heat payout (along with rads), while those who are crafting 5* gear to progress to champion/vanguard (running S5 to collecting shinings) to still heat their 5* gear, but at a much slower speed.
As a sample, the # of heat orbs required to level up a piece of equipment should be, say

HeatLimit = (GearStarLevel + 1) * GearHeatLevel * 10

Lets have a look at a few samples, and see how many units of heat would be required to have a piece of equipment level up at different * and heat levels.
0*, lvl 1 = 10
2*, lvl 5 = 150
4*, lvl 2 = 100
5*, lvl 1 = 60
5*, lvl 10 = 600
Ok, so its probably not perfect, but its on the right track IMO. If the ingame heat collection gauge caps out at 100, per level, then this formula works out reasonably well. Early heat levels can easily be gained, while later ones still require investment, but at least you're not farming for non existent rads

Make fire crystals grant a heat bonus of (CrystalStarLevel + 1) * 10 / max(GearStarLevel, 0.5), and the whole thing seems to balance out OK.

Course, need to set up a spreadsheet to checkout all the numbers. The formulas are based off quick headcalcs, and may require adjustments.

Wed, 09/10/2014 - 03:16

Eltrooper

Okay. But...

What about the forge prize boxes? How would they fit into your new system? Though they are quite rare, they do help out the knight who gets one quite a bit with all sorts of rarities and sometimes a ticket. Also, would there be a way to include the 25% heat amplifier chance as well? This isn't as important, but I thought I'd ask.
~Elt

Wed, 09/10/2014 - 10:03

#10

Cheshireccat

I like the OP idea.

Despite OOO lowering the drop depth for Rads, I still find the only way to get Rads in quantity is to farm FSC or D28 arenas.
One of my biggest complaints in the game is that FSC has no competition--there is no other place for earning that much Cr and that many Rads per run.

Let's remove one of the drivers towards repetitive FSC runs--and the rest of the game will open up because of it.

Wed, 09/10/2014 - 11:48

#11

Setakat

@Eltrooper

Heat Amplifier
Oops - forgot about this. I'm not sure how it works currently, but I'd imagine having one active (from consumable or weapon ability) would add 25% extra heat at the end of the CW level, when it applies the heat to our gear. So multiply the result found for the fire crystal application formula by a new variable, HeatAmplifierScale, which is either equal to 1 if no amplifier is present, or 1.25 if one is present (from consumable or weapon ability)

Forge Prize Boxes & Bonus 25% Heat Amplifier
When leveling up, use the award chances as if the player had chosen the 100% forge chance of the current system. If you look at my current formula for determining how much heat is required to progress a level, especially on the higher heat levels on 4 and 5* gear, given how long it would take to collect that much heat (assuming you're not spamming vana or S6 arenas), well, just assuming you've been spending all that time farming for fire crystals.
Truth be told, I wasn't considering Forge Prize boxes and the bonus +25% heat chance when I was thinking up my changes, so I didn't take them into account on level ups. Maybe change the RangeExtension part of the Heat Limit formula from 10 to 15 to balance it out a bit more, so it takes just a bit longer to level up at higher heat levels as a tradeoff for possibly getting a prize box or heat bonus?

Wed, 09/10/2014 - 12:19

#12

Fehzor

The pricing of the fire crystals is such that 50 shinning crystals = 350 CE, and 50 radiant fire crystals = 700 CE.

If this system allows for a better ratio than 2 shinning fire crystals to 1 radiant fire crystal, then it would become feasible to purchase and sell radiant fire crystals at a slight premium via purchasing shinning fire crystals first. If this were to be the case, then the price of radiant fire crystals would drop for everyone to [350 * ratio + markup] due to alt crafting and invites to the core. The same would hold true for glowing fire crystals and all other lower tiered fire crystals, until the ability to purchase fire crystals directly with crowns is acquired at dim and cracked fire crystals, meaning that your suggestion would make all fire crystals available via crowns alone. Basically, for all values under the actual cost of radiant fire crystals in energy-

Where N is the ratio of lower to higher tiered orbs; e.g. when N=2, the ratio of shinning fire crystals in to radiant fire crystals out is 2:1, and the conversion fee is the price of any other items required for each conversion at every tier level:
(10 + conversion fee) * N^5 = crowns for a single radiant crystal; as cracked fire crystals cost 10 crowns each.
Current radiant cost = 1,125 crowns per radiant fire crystal; 7.5 * energy/100
2:1 radiant cost = 320 crowns/rad; assuming no conversion fee
3:1 = 2,430 crowns/rad, ergo too much; assuming no conversion fee

This would basically just be SEGA resetting the price of radiants, which is something that would be nice, but they can already do that just by setting the price and making it cost crowns only.

The other out would be it function properly, where it would cost more to create radiants with crowns than it would to just buy them. This would be nice, until we realize that it just alters the ratio of shinning and radiant fire crystals given to the player, which is also something that SEGA can do with the press of a button after several meetings and debates. The only other factor, the one where it is limited by day, just serves to value players playing for logging on each day more than for playing the game over a period of time, as well as allowing them to alter that ratio by not playing the game. This is something that SEGA seems to have moved and away from, thankfully.

I think that a much better idea would be the ability to turn crafting orbs into fire crystals as often as one would like. This would destroy that player's potential to craft new things, but would make for a more fluid system that promotes creating new things. I myself have adamantly decided not to craft new weapons and armor from the existing system due to the amount of time grinding I would need to perform in order to heat said items. As I ran out of orbs using the recipe to craft fire crystals using them, my need for them would increase as well.

Wed, 09/10/2014 - 12:20

#13

Holy-Nightmare

@ Fe-tarkus Post 3

Are you suggesting that everytime you want to possibly use this machine you have to redo the Cradle and all achievement?

+1 to OP

Why not make it use a low amount of CE to craft crystals? 5 CE for Rads, 3 Ce for the shinings, and so on....? This would aid the CE market, and improve OOO sales.

Wed, 09/10/2014 - 13:03

#14

Fangel

Idea is good.

Cost in comparison is sort of off. 5->3 isn't the best. Honestly, a 5->1 would be better in my book. Why? Let's just say I have over 20k shining fire crystals from more or less casual play and nothing to use them on.

Now not everyone will have that luxury, but it's better to have more (fire crystal + 1 star level) when you need them anyways. A few things to give life to this suggestion (if it hasn't already been said. My attention span is a bit short today and quite a few posts here are blocks of text):

Make the stations arcade only.
Have the stations be stratum appropriate. Core is the end of tier 6, so it has the 5* crystal recipe. Tier 3 terminal is the end of stratum 5, so have the 4* crystal recipe.
Have a crown fee on top of the crystals needed. Maybe even make minerals involved in the recipe. (I hate seeing people not picking up valestone or moonstone because they can't make sprite food with it when that's the only mineral available to be picked up.)
Restrict parties that are at the core. As of right now there is no further content there anyways. Alternative would to have the machine act like Basil recipes so you have had to be in a certain number of floors before reaching the core to have access to them.

Making the crafts limited per day seems dull. Limited per run might be workable, especially with a "Basil restriction" put onto it. This makes players who want radiants to run the arcade to the core.
If this is added we might also want to reduce lag at the core.

Wed, 09/10/2014 - 13:18

#15

Neoretro

@ Holy-Nightmare

I believe that is a very similar problem to the one Fe-Tarkus pointed out to me in the first place. I was the one who originally only suggested one Fire Crystal Alchemy Machine at the Core, and he was the one who said that this would severely limit non-endgame players. Only then did I make the addition of the separate Fire Crystal Alchemy Machines at the end of every Stratum. His third post was supporting that change to my OP, in which I hope I've clearly marked my edits.

Wed, 09/10/2014 - 13:13

#16

Holy-Nightmare

@ Fangel

This would fix the Mineral problem and the Crystal problem

For each crystal level you craft up you need 1 more of each mineral

0 -> 1 star would need 1 of each mineral and so on up to the 4star crystal -> Radiants would need 6 of each.

Since you get a certain number of fire crystals when you craft down (5 I think) it would make sense you would need double to craft up (10 shinings to 1 rad). It also takes a small amount of CR to craft down crystals so following the trend double the craft up cost as well. This would make players more careful about crafting up since having a stash of lower star fire crystals would be useful once (if) the gunner update comes (or any newly crafted set in general)

Wed, 09/10/2014 - 13:50

#17

Neoretro

@ Fangel

I generally like your ideas. It makes more sense to limit these to the Arcade, as you wouldn't really reach the Terminals and Subtowns in Missions anyway.

A crown fee also makes sense, as that is already in place for the player-owned recipes to craft Fire Crystals downward into their lesser versions.

As for using Minerals in the new upward-crafting Fire Crystal Alchemy Machines, I like the idea, but can't decide between letting you choose the type of Mineral like the Sprite Food Alchemy Machine lets you pick the other crafting materials, or having it require some of each type of Mineral.

Restricting availability of the Machine to late joiners the same way as Basil also makes sense - people should still have to work for it, just NOT have to grind as much as we do now.

I also agree that maximum crafts per RUN is better than per day, but that would reduce the maximum number of button presses you see on your screen, as each individual limit would have to be smaller. When my idea was for the limit to reset daily, it was still going to be a large number to allow reasonable crafting, but your way makes people more inclined to run the arcade more often, which, as it stands now, is another problem that needs fixing, so your addition to my Crystal problem would partially alleviate the Arcade problem too.

I only have one concern: During my first fix for the flaws in the original idea, I had thought of the Radiant Crystals only being craftable at the Core, with Shinings and below being craftable at the Tier 3 Terminal, and so on. However, that would push the other crystals down the line as well, leading to the question of what to do with the Tier 1 Terminal's Alchemy Machine. Should 0-Star Fire Crystals be the starting point for the new Alchemy Machines, thus making Cracked Fire Crystals also craftable, perhaps using minerals as you also suggested, since there's no lower Fire Crystal to craft from?

Wed, 09/10/2014 - 13:58

#18

Fangel

Keep in mind...

The smallest fire crystal dropped in the clockworks are warm fire crystals(2*). Machines that do anything before that are more or less unneeded. Perhaps at the tier 1 terminal, there is a crafting machine that costs less than the recipes, but crafts down fire crystals very much like the recipes gained via missions. Players could get fire crystals for their appropriate tiers at a 1-3 crown discount. The fire crystal machines would start at the tier 2 terminal, where you can craft up to 2* crystals.

Another potential function of these machines could be alchemy orb crafting. Crafting takes two orbs of alchemy of one type and an energy price (1/3rd the cost of the item in the supply depot) and makes one orb of alchemy of a higher star level. It makes players able to bypass the elite orb grind better and they learn to value the arcade, plus makes these machines valuable to lower-star players because in all honestly, at lower levels, you care more about upgrading your gear than heating it(at least until 4*).

Only issue would be figuring out how to pace them. Should 4* orbs be offered at the beginning or end of their stratum? I'm leaning towards beginning as it is more friendly on players who actually NEED that gear (i.e., reached Emberlight and need 4* gear to continue) rather than those who need to improve the gear they already have(i.e., you need to have 4* gear to be in Emberlight, and therefore should be able to craft up fire crystals at the midpoint).

Wed, 09/10/2014 - 17:10

#19

Fehzor

Oh lord... <69

And now it takes..................minerals? This idea is becoming sillier by the hour.. I mean lets think this through a bit more. We have some problems in the game, specifically:

1. Blue and green minerals have no use
2. Shinning fire crystals are too abundant compared to other crafting materials.
3. We want to reward players for playing in the arcade more often than we currently do.

Now, here is what you guys are proposing:

A crafting machine found only in the arcade that takes minerals and shinning fire crystals and outputs radiant fire crystals and is only usable once per run. BAMF! FIXED 'EM ALL IN ONE GO! +1 DONE GOTTA RUN HAVE FUN!

Now imagine that we did this, and new problems cropped up, and problems after them and so on, and we kept doing this for everything. Pretty soon, you've got a ton of strange and redundant features, like cold iron vanquisher, angelic set, a redundant elevator, crown shops in Haven, and people are like "ROFL what were they thinking?????" And inevitably, there will be some new problem that crops up until the code is so messy that you cannot possibly shove another one of these fixes in.

Here is how I think we should attempt to handle these things:

Step One: Determine why we have this feature to begin with.
Step Two: Determine why the system put in place last time isn't working properly.
Step Three: Find a way to redo the system in such a way that it performs correctly.

Now lets do.... "2. Shinning fire crystals are too abundant compared to other crafting materials."

Step One: Fire crystals were put in place to slow the progression of leveling up gear, as well as to give players a reason to craft new gear when they don't need it, so they will use and enjoy the game in its full.

Step Two: Players find shinning fire crystals at a much faster rate than they do higher tiered fire crystals, as the areas containing radiants are always beyond areas containing shinning fire crystals primarily.

Step Three: We could... make more areas that give radiant fire crystals as their primary loot.

How about... "3. We want to reward players for playing in the arcade more often than we currently do."

Step One: The arcade was created as the main attraction; it WAS the game early on. The mission system was created to test players, provide them with a plot, and direct them through the game.

Step Two: The mission system that we implemented allows easier access to specific loot including crowns, and makes the arcade redundant.

Step Three: The arcade could be reformed to give out more crafting materials, including rarities and crowns. The mission system could also potentially be unlocked at a slower pace, as players progressed in the arcade, tying the two together.

This way, we address one issue (or set of connected issues) at a time, and don't attempt to fix completely separate issues all in one go. It's like taking a sledge hammer and trying to nail in 5 nails at once during your construction project.

Thu, 09/11/2014 - 18:59

#20

Neoretro

I was expecting someone to comment about how complex this idea is.

My response to that is the fact that Three Rings has already claimed to raise the drop rate of Radiant Fire Crystals, yet many players still find the grinding time ridiculous.

To merely "increase" the drop rate for Radiant Fire Crystals AGAIN would mean Three Rings would be indirectly admitting that they didn't do enough to fix it the first time. Given their propensity for making features more complex anyway (for example, adding the Forge system to the heating process), I figure this is a good compromise - the players get more (optional) opportunities for Radiant Fire Crystals, while Three Rings saves face by not having to do the exact same thing twice because they didn't do it enough the first time.

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Special Fire Crystal Alchemy Machine at Core Terminal