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Lockdown Skill: Speed or Wits?

35 replies [Last post]
Sat, 09/27/2014 - 11:16
Deleted-Knight's picture
Deleted-Knight

No doubt speed and wits are both needed to be skilled. However, which one has more impact on a person's performance?

I'm asking this because, at least in the games I participate in, a majority of the kills appear to be due to speed. The combatants are facing each other, but one guy managed to get in the hit before the other guy. In other words, prediction and out-thinking the opponent is capped by how fast you can maneuver. This is supported by the popularity of MSI and ASI. These observations are not exclusive to strikers. Guardians and recons also follow this trend. Your thoughts?

Obviously responses will be opinions, but it would be nice if you can provide some concrete evidence (like a segment of someone's lockdown video) to support your claim.

Follow-up
If you were to divide up skill into three sectors, how would you split it (percentage wise)? The sectors are:
Mental - predicting, baiting, etc.
Physical - reaction time, movement/attack/dodging speed, etc.
Other - using the environment, stalling vs damage hound, teamwork, etc.

IMO:
Mental: 30%, Physical: 40%, Other: 30%
Reasoning - All three are important, but physical excellence augments your abilities in the other categories. Lockdown is a fast-twitch game.

Update:
To clarify, this is not about you but about Lockdown players in general. Nobody likes to think they lack wits and rely on speed. However, from an objective perspective that may not be the case. Just because someone doesn't attack randomly doesn't mean they rely on wits to win battles.

ex1.
If striker relies on flourish stun locking to defeat opponents, that is speed not wit. It's a perfectly valid strategy, except it doesn't involve much thinking. It prevents the opponent from doing anything to counter you.
If a striker manages to beat an enemy by stalling out the shield and slowly wearing them down, that is wits. The enemy is given a chance to retaliate but failed to overcome.
ex2.
If a guardian kills a striker by consistently landing counter hits for every hit the striker lands, that is speed. Given an enemy with better speed, that strategy would fail miserably.
If a guardian uses bombs/guns to area deny the striker, then move in for the kill after the striker runs out of boosts, that is wits. The guardian is not just trying to out-react the striker.

I can't reiterate this enough:
Neither speed nor wits is "cheap". Both are perfectly valid. The question is, what do you think is more "skill"?
The same question can be asked in real world sports. In soccer, the more dexterous and speedy player plays better, but the more strategic and predictive player also plays better. Who would be more skilled?

Sat, 09/27/2014 - 12:11
#1
The-Germ's picture
The-Germ

(it's been a while since I read this book so forgive me if I missed anything)

Just like any other fight, a thinking fighter will value positional placement rather then striking speed. Though it's fictional, the best example I can think of is when Drizzt fought Dantrag in the book Passage to Dawn. Dantrag has magical bracelets of speed, making his arms move blindingly fast. Drizzt was not use to this, since he had trained and had not met someone with speed so much superior to his. After taking a few minor hits, Drizzt took a step back and realized how predictable the swings were based on his approach. On average they were easily dodged/blocked, but the speed gave him such an advantage that they were a serious threat. Dantrag was then baited into swinging so much that it actually outbalanced him since he feet couldn't keep up. Drizzt had much better footwork, and was able to position himself to win. After taking the bracelets himself and attempting to use them on his arms, he actually lost a sparring match against someone he was training - being baited in the same way. He then placed them around his ankles for better maneuverability in a fight.

Jumping back into LD, your ASI/AT/Acheron player is probably the best example. You get close, hit them once, they win the speed contest in close and devastate you with it's ridiculous power by just clicking with no real thought process. Another example would be the flurry of swings that a fast flourish/sealed sword line weapon switch gives as an opponent give more area denial with that type of attack and can approach at a scary rate. Either way, the attacks that come at you are predictable. You can't swing a flourish two different ways, and they have to approach you to hit you.

If someone is beating you because of ASI consistently, you need to take a step back and evaluate the situation and try a different approach. As for MSI, one might disagree but I don't think it makes a noticeable difference in a striker fight. Players with no MSI but with varied latency appear faster to me then someone wearing Kat/Merc gear.

My final answer would be initially when you're beginning to wade into the fighting world, swinging speed gives you all the advantage you need. As you develop and become a better fighter, positional placement and baiting are way more important. For a good example watch the feet in a boxing match. Even though one fighter might have a slower punch, he can make up with it with footwork and thinking.

Good question!

Sat, 09/27/2014 - 15:17
#2
Turn-Me-On's picture
Turn-Me-On
Wits is your answer. Players

Wits is your answer.

Players with wits: (Darkcub is a great example) will visibly adjust their playstyle to hit an opponent by preditcing their movements (Mini is an OK example too, but toggling aint cool....).
>50% hit rate with swords
Can beat many peole in a row

Players with speed (Pretty much any UVed striker) will hit about 20% of their shots (you can tell who has no wit by seeing who whiffs a lot and attacks where their target was about .5 secs ago). Its kind of like watching a drunk person try to open a door with a key).
-Usually loses if fighting more than 1 opponent
-Sucks in general

Wits vs Speed is also why people go swords. You need wits to gun or bomb, but only 5% (probably less) of LDers gun or bomb (hybrid not counted), since gunning and bombing take predictive movement, while swording can work with both mindless spam or wits.

TL;DR
95% of LDers can be outwitted by the smarter ones.
(Dutch, Darkcub, Minimetaknight are some examples of players that can mow down the common slumps)

Basically anyone who can consistently beat multiple people (not quite that simple, but whatever)

Sun, 09/28/2014 - 02:15
#3
Bleyken's picture
Bleyken

Wits, you can be fast but if you are stupid you won't do sh*t.

@Octalash "Player with wits: (Darkcub is a great example)" That's a joke, right?

Sun, 09/28/2014 - 02:38
#4
Whimsicality's picture
Whimsicality

Given how the game works, the person who mindlessly mashes the buttons fastest is usually the one who loses.

Unless they're alchemer switching with Storm Driver.

Sun, 09/28/2014 - 05:36
#5
Krakob's picture
Krakob

As someone who plays with some of the best people on Eu, I honestly think that my lacking part is speed, not wits. In the end, I often find myself taking hits from my opponents not because I'm not reading their movements quickly enough, but because I don't act on their moves quickly enough. Of course, I could avoid such problems if I could stay less predictable and would thus be able to punish their errors instead but it's very hard to do so when my opponent is better at that. I can't rely on predicting them, which is what I usually do in 1v1 situations when I try my best.

Sun, 09/28/2014 - 08:25
#6
Reto-Da-Liz's picture
Reto-Da-Liz

Who is this Octaslash guy?

Sun, 09/28/2014 - 11:37
#7
Deleted-Knight's picture
Deleted-Knight
@Contri, and maybe Reto You

@Contri, and maybe Reto
You can't deny that Darkcub does perform well in Lockdown matches. If you don't believe he has the wits, then are you implying he depends on speed? In that case, Darkcub would be a great counterexample to your own claim that wits >> speed. Clearly if you have enough speed, you don't need wits to do well.

Sun, 09/28/2014 - 11:46
#8
Im-Not-Onebeckham's picture
Im-Not-Onebeckham
@ Krakob

Who are the best players you have faced in Europe?

Sun, 09/28/2014 - 12:13
#9
Krakob's picture
Krakob

Reto, Bleyu, Illu, Dovis, Scirio, Daystorm, Coldness, Achys, etc.

Sun, 09/28/2014 - 12:38
#10
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
Sword Recons

When you play sword recon it's mostly about wit, playing mindgames, learning their patterns and then punishing them. You can also change up your pattern after you rattle them enough, instead of waiting for their predicted actions instead go for the first hit (shock alchemers or swords that deal status easily) to throw them off since eventually they will expect you to appear at the end of their combos or wherever you tend to pop up at.
For sets like this you need ASI armors to make fast swipes and MSI to further increase your cloaked movement range.

When fighting other recons you need to tease them out by lowering your shield for the shortest amount of time possible, more often than not greedy players will try to attack with guns, this gives away their position (to you and allies) and after a few flashes you should be able to determine their movement patterns.

For Guardians you can lets your team strikers tease them into lowering their shields to attack, it is in this moment that you should strike to further supplement your striker's attack with damage and deathmark.

Sun, 09/28/2014 - 13:13
#11
The-Germ's picture
The-Germ

I made a video in response since it was requested in the OP, I hope it's a decent example. No offense to anyone in the vid, things happen in LD!

Wits vs Speed

Sun, 09/28/2014 - 16:21
#12
Feyi-Feyi's picture
Feyi-Feyi
I haven't even been gone for

I haven't even been gone for 3 months and you're already forgetting about me Krakob?

HEARTBROKEN.

Sun, 09/28/2014 - 22:11
#13
Klipik-Forum's picture
Klipik-Forum

I think LD (talking specifically about 1v1 striker toothpick fights with equal gear here) are about using your wits to compliment your speed and hoping it's better than the other guy's speed. Because you don't need wits for defense, just speed. "Where is that guy hitting me? There. *turn* *stab*" of course you can predict where some people (aka me) are gonna hit and pre-counter them, but only a handful of people can do that. To put it one way, those are "proactive" players. The rest of us are "reactive", defending based on the actions the opponent has already taken. So defense is more about speed than wits.

Offense, on the other hand, is more about wits unless you can achieve blinding speed. And by blinding speed I mean perfect mechanics, ASI max and dual toothpick switching. But again, only a handful can do that. If you can't achieve blinding speed, it's going to be much more productive to feint and try to trick your opponent than simply overwhelm him with speed. If your opponent is more or less on an even skill plane as you, average defense beats head-on attack. Most players just don't have the speed required to get past a reactionary defense, because their opponent will mostly have comparable reaction time and be able to at least counter-hit if not deflect the attack entirely. Instead you need to waste their reaction time on something you're not actually doing, and punish that tiny opening where their defense is down.

So TL;DR:
-speed is more important for defense, unless you can play proactively and predict your opponent.
-wits are more important for offense, unless you can attack so fast there is virtually no time to react.

Sun, 09/28/2014 - 22:12
#14
Turn-Me-On's picture
Turn-Me-On
@Reto Its not important :)

@Reto Its not important :) But guns are fun
@Contri Surprisingly, not joking (seen Dark get 41k in a match (still lost, but that does take wit))

7mo

Get ready

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 02:33
#15
Bleyken-Forums's picture
Bleyken-Forums
@Octaslash

You're trolling, right?

Right?!

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 04:27
#16
Bleyken's picture
Bleyken

@Deleted-Knight Yes, Darkcub depends of the speed, that's why he beat 95% of LD players that don't know how to play well but he loses against good players with wits. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmWIKFMm0UY&list=UUydm3doHNr2iZRiyxyD6ahQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDLdbu0AH1Y&list=UU2OqgonW_LYITlGriipCWvw

@Octalash No he doesn't need wits, just speed + AT. Darkcub doesn't think, he just go and hit the air until he kills someone.

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 07:39
#17
Valtiros's picture
Valtiros
"I think LD (talking

"I think LD (talking specifically about 1v1 striker toothpick fights with equal gear here) are about using your wits to compliment your speed and hoping it's better than the other guy's speed. Because you don't need wits for defense, just speed. "Where is that guy hitting me? There. *turn* *stab*" of course you can predict where some people (aka me) are gonna hit and pre-counter them, but only a handful of people can do that. To put it one way, those are "proactive" players. The rest of us are "reactive", defending based on the actions the opponent has already taken. So defense is more about speed than wits."

Do you think it s that rare? I mean, with a bit of practice , you know the speed of the ennemies ' moves and the speed of their swords.
And so, you can predict their attack and use your ability as a defense skill. The guy is in front of you, so you just have to dodge before the person attacked and to go in the side so that so can punish him when he is here.
With a good timing you can even kill your oppenents who are going after you before they have time to hit.

Regarding offense, I think that wits is not so important. You only have to have good asis to make dmg, you quicky attack with them and the ennemy doesnt have time to react . you only need to turn auto aim on and it will compensate for the lack of wits.

I would say that speed is the most important part in random lockdown to kill many opponents and hit many dmg. the only thing to do is to kill the people who are weaker than you very quicky before they react. Asis are required to do so , and...some computer help may be useful.

Conversely , when you fight skilled player (1v1 for instance), speed is not enough because your opponent is as fast as you or even faster and can react fastly. That s here that wits makes the difference because the adversaries predict each other, and the best mindgamers wins.
I ' d also say that wits has an effect in 1 vs many because speed will allow you to hit ennemies but you will be hit back by the others and die.
If you can fight in same time many players and beat them it means that you have both, speed and wits for you know where to go to hit without being hit back and you react fastly enough so that the ennemies don't have time to track you.

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 12:22
#18
Klipik-Forum's picture
Klipik-Forum
"Do you think it s that rare?

"Do you think it s that rare? I mean, with a bit of practice , you know the speed of the ennemies ' moves and the speed of their swords.
And so, you can predict their attack and use your ability as a defense skill."

I find that most people aren't able to guess what direction you will attack from and get in a position to counter that attack before it happens. The ones who can, it feels like they can see the future and every time I go in for an attack I get slapped away.

And for 1 vs many (again assuming all swords), I find speed to be better because if you're fast enough that none of your opponents can keep up with you, plus the added confusion of you having four possible targets, means you can pick targets at random and slowly whittle the whole group down. Unless they're coordinated of course.

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 12:50
#19
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
x

speed or wits, u r right, they're not cheap
but relying on super UVed gear kind of is
(must... resist... rant...)

but I agree wits is the most important (unless striker, then it varies on the person)

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 13:08
#20
Deleted-Knight's picture
Deleted-Knight
Glad to see a lively discussion!

With the exception of the "lol, Darkcub noob", this thread has been pretty mature, so thanks!

I added a follow up question/poll.

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 01:54
#21
Skeptics
.

hi

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 08:50
#22
Bleyken-Forums's picture
Bleyken-Forums

http://i.imgur.com/dmaRy0Z.png

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 10:53
#23
Darkcub's picture
Darkcub
https://www.youtube.com/watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ut8TxvwPlI

Yes i have a lot of 1vs1 losing but the 90% was with my old PC , im a new player atm .

GL

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 11:53
#24
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
im vohtarak

im pretty sure I was with darkcub once, I was spamming lockdown for a ruby bombhead mask (not worth it)(to prevent me from raging I used a wrench wand)

he did really well, I dont see why you guys think he's bad

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 14:26
#25
Dragneel-Wiki's picture
Dragneel-Wiki

@Feyi:

I haven't even been gone for 3 months and you're already forgetting about me Krakob?

HEARTBROKEN.

Talk about being forgotten... (¬_¬)

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 21:47
#26
Turn-Me-On's picture
Turn-Me-On
@Bleyken Ok thats actually

@Bleyken

Ok thats actually pretty hilarious XD

Dammit darkcub, why u gotta be derp, i was complimenting u :/

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 03:37
#27
Krakob's picture
Krakob

Ain't my fault that you guys don't play anymore :*
Since someone seemed to genuinely wonder who some of the best Eu players are, I responded with currently active ones, or at least ones who were active during summer.

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 06:41
#28
Reto-Da-Liz's picture
Reto-Da-Liz

Is inactive, still gets nominated.

#feyigetrekt
#dragneelgetrekt

Krakky come play Hammerwatch with me. I'm home for a few days and can play online :D

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 08:02
#29
Krakob's picture
Krakob

Well, you were active during the summer, unlike a couple of other players :P

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 16:13
#30
Exiledbread
I'm a creep, I'm a weird dough

It's definitely more than just mental, physical, and other. Here's my list of ingredients:

  • 10% luck
  • 13.37% skill
  • 50% concentrated power of "will my opponent mess up before I do"
  • 5% saltiness
  • 1 loaf of pain

100% of the way to be good at this game.

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 16:46
#31
Deleted-Knight's picture
Deleted-Knight
I think you misread Exiledbread.

I'm asking you to divide up "skill". You may think Lockdown is 13% skill, but that 13% still contains multiple components. What does it mean when you say someone is skilled?

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 17:08
#32
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
im vohtarak

skill:

knows when to attack or use the striker circle tactic/cloak/shield
knows how to use the weapon they have
can predict others movements well
knows how to be unpredictable

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 18:37
#33
The-Germ's picture
The-Germ

@Reto
Hammerwatch is so good! I hooked my PC up to the big screen so friends and I could play it a few weeks ago. Mad fun there.. especially when someone wanted to test the damage the floor spikes did... lol

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 20:46
#34
Exiledbread
Explanation kneaded

I feel like determining speed vs wits, or a breakdown between physical, mental, and other is kind of like determining the best thing to put on a sandwich.

It'd be silly to ask the following: which contributes more to a sandwich, horseradish or honey? Both are good, but in vastly different contexts. Neither should be put on every sandwich, rather you should look at the other ingredients and pick the spread based on that. Likewise, I'd argue the speed vs wits decision (or how does it break between physical, mental, and other) is more up to the personality and natural playstyle of the individual. What meshes with how you like to play?

Maybe skilled players are those who have figured out a combination of speed and wits that works for them?

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 21:39
#35
Turn-Me-On's picture
Turn-Me-On
^Who the hell puts honey on

^Who the heck puts honey on their sandwiches

Mustard all the way man, ketchup is for fattiez

But to refer to your post, you are basically describing wits when you say "a perfect combination of speed and wits that works for them."

Takes wits to know what speed you need.

I personally enjoy promoting the illusion that ASI VH on everything is the best.

"Taking advantage of the ignorant since the beginning of time" - Smart people

(No Im not claiming to be smart, but this is the truth.)

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