Spiral Knights - Patch the rigadoon and flamberg to be more different from final flourish

Patch the rigadoon and flamberg to be more different from final flourish

32 replies [Last post]

Sun, 09/28/2014 - 20:39

Fehzor

Why?

Because having the random status effects isn't very tantalizing when the non-status variants kill things much faster. It's like you've almost crafted a final flourish, but instead randomly deal status and have less damage. But we don't want more damage, because that's already in the game as final flourish.

Instead, we should try to emphasize the status effects, and what they're good against. Flamberg has another problem- fiends and beasts resist fire, which is flamberg's jam. The weapon would be far more effective if it dealt damage to some sort of mobs that were actually weak to fire.

The easiest fix

Make them more of what they already are, differentiating them from the other line, and have a goal in mind.

Reduce damage by a bit, increase attack speed.
Significantly higher chance of giving off the respective status effect. More likely than not, to give off the respective status effect.
Flamberg becomes shadow damage; something of a slime killer.

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 03:41

Mystrian

But its damage over time

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 05:27

Fehzor

What about damage over time?

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 06:26

Spirals-Ore

What about the rigadon line ?

What about the rigadon line ? should they get buffed to ? I don't think stun will do much if You can just dodge much with the fast-action flourish lines. This is also because you can stun with your sheild bash , and you can jump away with dash.

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 06:34

Fehzor

Yeah. Rigadoon should get the increased status and speed too. But it is fine as piercing.

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 06:55

Mystrian

just letting you know that fire is dam over time. thought you left that out

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 07:58

Vohtarak-Forum

the enemies weak to pierce r not that affected by fire, so its not THAT over time

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 08:00

Vohtarak-Forum

side note: does stun slow down the LD striker dash?

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 12:44

Klipik-Forum

Science! Or maybe just math.

FF S6 dmg: 285+285+340=910
Flamb dmg +fire: 240+240+289+308(fire on wolvers) = 1077
Flamb dmg -fire: 240+240+289 = 769

Now I'm not sure exactly what the chance to proc fire is, but even if it's fairly high FF is still better damage-wise than Flamb since fire does not stack (so multiple procs make no difference).

I would also suggest Flamberge deal stronger fire.
@Oohnorak yes.

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 13:41

Eltrooper

Sure

I think that the flamberge and rigadoon lines are underused at the moment because people would much rather have reliable extra damage than a low chance for a status effect. Myself included. This is why my rapier-type sword of choice is the Barbarous Thorn Blade.

-Adding some noticible natural ASI to the swords would be okay I guess (though strikers in lockdown may become even more annoyingly fast as a result...) as long as that ASI is balanced out with significantly lower damage (this may be too much of a stretch, but maybe as low as a wild hunting blade or even lower) and the status is guranteed every 3-4-5 hits or so. Maybe make the first slash have a lower chance of interrupting attacks too? Or just in lockdown? <(That's probably just wishful thinking...)

-The statuses could be buffed, but if they get more likely to happen that isn't as important.
~Elt

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 13:50

#10

Fehzor

My thought was that flamberg should end up doing, on average, a bit more damage than final flourish. To accomplish this and make up for the randomness and non-stacking factors, it should hit faster.

Against a bunch of enemies, flamberg should be the better option, as you could run around hitting them all to light them, then running, using the normal hit combo w/ asi to dodge through enemies, being carried by your specialized damage. We don't really get this often in a sword, but it would be neat to.

For single target damage, however, final flourish would still win out as its damage would still stack better, as well as with damage buffs.

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 14:53

#11

Vohtarak-Forum

I'm actually vohtarak

yes the group vs single target balance is a good idea
it would make more sense if fire spread between enemies like it used to

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 16:21

#12

Avihr

Hmm, I've fought worse

@klipik

Instant damage beats DOT Every day of the week, so it makes sense that combined with fire, a flameberge would deal more damage than a FF.

and as far as the chances for status proc goes, its really low, you might end up killing 3-4 wolvers before you get to set the 5th on fire. so yeah, i agree with the OP, make the status flourishes focus more on status, as it stands now they are just a weaker verison of the Final flourish except that they have a slight luck factor into them.

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 16:35

#13

Vohtarak-Forum

im vohtarak

when I see people use those things (usually in arcade) I see more rock jellies than the status proc (they usually agree)
either buff their damage or drastically buff the status chance
( I can't figure out how to only bold 1 word

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 17:07

#14

Klipik-Forum

@Ooh

< strong > bold < /strong > ;)

For the Rigadoon though, I think you actually have to very careful tweaking it because of how powerful the Stun status is. It kind of has to have a low chance to stun because of how easy it is to land hits, but the instant you bring that proc chance below the point where it's stunning everything and would make the entire game (PvE and PvP) a joke, it starts to feel overly gimmicky and you end up switching out stun for damage.
I think maybe... they should scrap the Rig entirely and replace it with a different flourish. Or just not replace it at all.

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 06:37

#15

Fehzor

You do bring up a good point with the stun. I suppose monsters could still attack, and you'd be doing so little damage when you try to stun them. I'd have to play around with it.

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 11:38

#16

Vohtarak-Forum

I'm vohtarak

thanks I didnt know you needed the / in it

I think rigadoon needs more of a damage buff than flamberge if it does happen due to stun not damaging things
( testing , lol)

edit: fixed an auto correct error

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 10:21

#17

Momofuku

I kinda like how the Flamberge is now. Maybe a tiny (5%?) base damage upgrade.

But at most, I would like to see completely different charge attacks for the Flamberge / Rigadoon to really set them apart from the Final Flourish.

After all, Barbarous Thorn Blade gets Snarbolax to bite someone. Why can't Flamberge summon a Vog to bite someone (and inflict fire!) or Rigadoon to shoot stunning needles in a small cone.

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 11:42

#18

Fehzor

So you actually use flamberg to your advantage? You're probably the first that I've seen to do so. Do tell.

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 12:03

#19

Momofuku

I find its use not so much in PVE but rather in Lockdown. Because of the prevalence of Black Kat / Chaos gear with negative Fire resist, I find the chance of setting people on fire to be more common than in PVE settings. I prefer it to Rigadoon since Black Kat / Chaos don't come with stun weakness, only Fire.

On average, I'm sure I do less damage than if I used a Final Flourish. I have both. I won't say the Flamberge is a great weapon, but it sure is fun to use.

Plus, it is very fun to throw a snowball at someone who is also on fire.

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 12:20

#20

Fangel

I think an increase in status would be good

I like flamberg where it is honestly. It's nice to have an array of statuses for each damage type. It would be nice if the statuses happened more often though. But maybe just on the second and third hits to discourage just using the first hit and nothing else. I really hate that people don't poke with a poking sword.

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 12:20

#21

Vohtarak-Forum

I'm vohtarak

the flamberge is a really good idea then, because along with annoying toothpick speed, you send striker clones scurrying back to base for their health pad crutch
I might get 1 now actually...

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 12:37

#22

Klipik-Forum

I think in PvP DoTs aren't actually very useful at all unless you're planning on taking a long time to fight someone, like if you're a bomber. With swords, where fights usually last around 5 seconds, your DoT does nowhere near as much damage as an equivalent dmg weapon would.

btw guys, it's Flamberge, not Flamberg. :p

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 12:48

#23

Fangel

derp

I don't have a flamberge, just a fork that's really mad.

But if you take a flamberge into fights, you're doing it for the fire. A guardian or recon will benefit more from it IMO. A recon will hit and cloak, thus letting the damage over time take effect while not being hit. Guardian can just stall with a shield(theoretically, both these should work. In actual gameplay striker is just OP). A striker shouldn't take a flamberge because they play to end fights quickly.

But I mean, it's super amazing when you light someone on fire then watch them after they kill you and die because of the fire.
Then again that person on fire is usually me.
#valkyriemasterrace

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 12:53

#24

Vohtarak-Forum

im vohtarak

I get wrench wand kills as a recon (sometimes) so a flamberge would probably be even better

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 12:57

#25

Holy-Nightmare

@ Fangel

Due to latency in LD using a poking sword combo more often than not misses, it has a horribly small hitbox on the last 2 hits. Even with AT the combo usually misses when people are moving.

I would love to see this weapon become as useable as FF but right now Flamberge is a great weapon to fight Chaos Cloak users (or people who show up in Valkyrie sets for some reason).

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 13:42

#26

Vohtarak-Forum

I'm vohtarak

isnt it pointed out (I think by zeddy) that UVs dont do anything on armor, only weapons?
still fire lasts a pretty long time with one armor that has the status defence, so a skolver or snarby might also find trouble with a flamberge

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 14:16

#27

Fangel

UVs still do things.

Don't know why people think otherwise. In lockdown, if your overall resistance to a damage type is below a certain threshold (i.e., no piercing defense), it will be boosted up to 100 (in tier 3) so that you don't die in one hit from a flourish. Status resistances or same type defenses (normal UV on gear with normal defense) work great. Shadow defense on skolver doesn't do anything because your defense is boosted to 100 anyways.

And for latency in lockdown, that is just in general how it all works. Honestly, the final flourish and BTB could have ASD: low put on them stat-wise and it would make the status variants a bit nicer. Increasing status chance on the second and third hits will make comboing happen more often in lockdown, but I mean, the swords are a bit underrated as is.
Second and third hits encourage people to use at least part of the combo instead of just swiping at everything. We wouldn't remove the status chance on the swipe, just increase it on the other two hits. Maybe even give the rigadoon a wrench-wand like projectile for its charge that has a good chance of stun.

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 17:55

#28

Fehzor

Oh, lockdown. I never considered that, as I don't play it. A smaller buff+damage type change would be OK too I suppose, but I'd rather the item just be made more different like I stated in the OP.

I think that weapons should work in PvE before they work in PvP anyway... imagine that you were a new 5* player, and just finished heating your first set. You wouldn't have a flamberge to use in PvP, as that's worthless in PvE. This gives the long time players in lockdown a huge advantage, as they are the only ones that care enough to craft special weapon for actual use and not just for giggles. But beyond that, we already have unfair advantages (UVs, celestial sabre, mixmaster, trinket/weapon slots) everywhere, and lockdown is kind of a joke. It would be like if chess players could start with extra queens for no good reason. It honestly surprises me that there is a "lockdown community" to begin with.

PvE on the other hand, should never stop offering reasons to craft gear. That's the biggest draw to the game, collecting gear and developing your character.

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 03:59

#29

Vohtarak-Forum

I'm vohtarak

the lockdown community is made of the paying players with ridiculous gear (and a few actually skilled people)

but I agree a weapon should first be good in pve before lockdown

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 06:54

#30

Momofuku

I mean... it's hard to say weapon balancing is at the top of the list of concerns when they buffed Acheron up to heavy sword damage levels. Final Flourish deals less damage to standard wolvers than Acheron does.

The least I can ask for is just cooler/unique charge attacks. Never mind actual "usefulness," that went out the window a long time ago.

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 07:03

#31

Fehzor

They're balancing guns... I would predict swords and bombs in parallel or afterward.

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 15:25

#32

Fangel

Feel like I should clear this up real quick

Final Flourish deals less damage to standard wolvers than Acheron does.
I believe this is only the case when any sort of damage boost is applied. Final flourish still does more damage than acheron on beasts as long as you have no damage bonuses what-so-ever. Acheron is honestly kind of balanced without damage bonuses. The moment you apply one it becomes the sword without competition.

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Patch the rigadoon and flamberg to be more different from final flourish