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Fallen set pros and cons

15 replies [Last post]
Tue, 10/07/2014 - 07:55
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare

The Fallen set is a pretty good armor, it give resist to 2 of the worst statuses (poison and fire) and give a universal Med ASI increase. Combo this with the SSB and you get a universal ASI of Ultra. I would not suggest this set for new players though as some of the worst enemies are fiends for first time player go for Valkyrie or Dread Skelly to deal with them. Why? The fallen set has a VH universal penalty to fiends so unless you want to pay for fiend UVs and use your pet perk to help cancel this, if you can do that then this set would be useful for handling fire themed fiends (fire/shadow is a rarity among shadow armors with only one other set doing this).

The other reason to get this set is because you already have VH ASI and using Vog or some other VH ASI armor is redundant.

It is also the second best status immunity set for C42 (after Dragon scale set of course) for those too cheap to get a poison UVed Vog set.

All in all its a pretty good set, not a truly horrible set but it does have some downsides.

Great for undead
Good for ASI hybrid
Bad for fiends

Tue, 10/07/2014 - 08:11
#1
Bopp's picture
Bopp
funny thing

The funny thing about it is the pairing of shadow protection with fiend penalty. So, what, I'm supposed to use it only against undead? Fortunately damage protection on armor isn't as big a deal as status protection, and the status protection is nice.

Fallen isn't terrible armor. Neither is Deadly Virulisk. They just seem bad in comparison to the truly good armors.

Tue, 10/07/2014 - 08:27
#2
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Bopp

Chaos only has elemental/normal, does that mean it is just for status-free construct/gremlin levels? No people use it in places filled with deathly statuses only because it has offensive boosts, similarly a Universal ASI set could be used much like it.

With many player ditching status and type defense for offensive perks I'm starting to wonder if the community really values status defense at all any more. I'm really a bit sad that it has stagnated into this game where only damage matters regardless of the horrible possibilities should I mess up. It's a pity that everyone just plays the berserker and so few actually play the survivalist. Just yesterday I played Ghost in the Machine (in my Signature Merc set) with a group of Wolver/chaos users. By the time we got through the first part some one had left and everyone on my team had lost their emergency rev; by the end of the floor I was soloing....

Tue, 10/07/2014 - 08:45
#3
Bopp's picture
Bopp
well

Chaos only has elemental/normal, does that mean it is just for status-free construct/gremlin levels? No people use it in places filled with deathly statuses only because it has offensive boosts, similarly a Universal ASI set could be used much like it.

I get your point, although the argument is not perfectly parallel, because Fallen has an offensive penalty against the nastiest monster family in the game.

With many player ditching status and type defense for offensive perks I'm starting to wonder if the community really values status defense at all any more.

One problem is that damage calculations are unbalanced; damage protection doesn't have as big an effect as it should. Another problem is the rise of MSI, which makes it easier to dodge enemy attacks. Another problem is that so many players just grind the same areas (FSC) again and again, so that they are not really tested with difficult status threats often.

Tue, 10/07/2014 - 10:20
#4
Turn-Me-On's picture
Turn-Me-On
Best part is that you can get

Best part is that you can get a double halo look goin on (they need a dreadful/baleful halo like the Fallen's headpiece has, now that I think of it).

Good set, very balanced imo.

But due to chaos and bkc existing, it needs to be ASI Med on each piece to compete.

However, this shouldnt happen because then people could pair the asi universal with dmg universal and become even more OP.

BKC + Fallen Armor (if it has asi med) = rekt

Tue, 10/07/2014 - 11:55
#5
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

All in all its a pretty good set, not a truly horrible set but it does have some downsides.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that. Fallen set's only claim to fame is having shadow + normal + fire, as well as an offensive stat + fire/poison.

Its defenses are mediocre. They're literally the same as chaos/black kat's, meaning that on ice/normal levels, there will almost never be a reason to bring armor of the fallen.

Against poisonous shadow enemies, radiant silvermail and dread skelly are largely better than it due to their curse resistance, undead bonus and extra defenses. The most prominent level with poisonous undead on it also has a good deal of slime themed monsters, making radiant silvermail a much better niche armor to pick up- especially considering the Margrel fight, which brings shadow, poison and curse to the mix. Getting cursed is unpleasant, but is truly awful with the maximum time added on.

Against fiery enemies, divine veil is the better overall choice, as it protects against fiends and shock as well as granting you your fire+shadow boost. You could argue that the normal defense makes it worthwhile when against fire+undead, but the main area for fighting fire+undead, FSC, benefits about equally from elemental and normal defense, as Vanaduke is capable of both elemental and normal damage. If anything, mask of seerus is the main competition for armor of the fallen in that particular situation- more normal+elemental than fallen has, more net bonus than fallen has, but no mediocre amount of shadow defense... that being said, it won't matter how much defense you have when you quickly charge your blitz needle and crush trojans with it, rather than tanking the hit.

Most undead levels have a chance to include fiends on them. This means that fallen set has a very good chance of coming back to bite you whenever you take it onto say, an undead clockwork tunnels level. While having damage penalty: very high against fiends isn't THAT bad on occasion, it isn't exactly fun to constantly rely on your team randomly whenever a devilite pops up, and the penalty certain isn't going to help you kill any silkwings.

Fallen is one of the two winning choices for C42. That being said, the ASI boost that it gives is largely worse than having elemental+piercing defense from dragon, and that assumes that you want to craft an entire armor set just for one mission. One piece of fallen + one piece of dragon might be the best solution to that mission, but it's hardly going to make a difference if it even comes close to doing so. If you had piercing max + elmental max per piece on your fallen set, it would probably be better. If you're rolling that highly, you probably don't need to minmax that hard for one armor set either though.

I don't know what the developers had in mind for fallen set, but in today's game, there is no outstanding purpose or use for fallen-- just a handful of questionable areas where fallen is "better".

Tue, 10/07/2014 - 12:13
#6
Krakob's picture
Krakob

I'd say the only thing at all worthwhile with Fallen is the ASI. It has a very small niche for bombers who want as much ASI as possible, and it's generally nice to round off your values if you use both swords and guns. In Lockdown, it's quite viable for usage along with a Black Kat Cowl, as it's the only way to boost your gun ASI while keeping your defences consistent, not investing in UVs, and not using trinket slots for gun trinkets. That said, there's no real point in getting it. The niche is far too small.

Tue, 10/07/2014 - 14:55
#7
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
im vohtarak, call me by that name

all asi does for bombs is increase the speed you place it on the ground

Tue, 10/07/2014 - 16:52
#8
Bopp's picture
Bopp
right

Yep. It increases the animation speed. But bombers value that.

Tue, 10/07/2014 - 18:15
#9
Exerpa's picture
Exerpa
Fallen with its offensive

Fallen with its offensive debuffs is an example of something that should have been explored when it came to thinking up muh glass cannon sets.
But now we'll never see the likes of it again in the future.
If anything, Fallen would be a neat set if it had +2 sword/gun ASI per part (but no bomb asi). Hell, crank that Fiend debuff down to -3 or add -Undead if need be.

It's also worth mentioning that it swaps the status resists of Valkyrie about, yet when Heavenly Iron was introduced they didn't complete the status trilogy. No fire resist but a random shock weakness? Thats stupid.. considering you can make it before heading into UFSC, it would have been perfect there - somewhere Fallen probably shouldn't go.

Wed, 10/08/2014 - 05:28
#10
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

I honestly don't think bomb asi is worth mentioning, especially when they already have that alt-dropping technique, and msi is so beneficial to them.

Wed, 10/08/2014 - 07:49
#11
Krakob's picture
Krakob
@Fehzor

It's still worth mentioning as it is a niche which exists. Maeko bombing is of course a thing but I don't see why ASI wouldn't be beneficial to it as well. No one should go for ASI for a serious set but it's still something some few people will give a damn about. I'm pretty sure OP has enough experience with the game to know that Fallen isn't good for serious bombing so we aren't really misleading anyone.

Wed, 10/08/2014 - 08:08
#12
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Krakob

I never mentioned bombing, if I were to suggest bombs with this set I would also suggest adding the Swiftstriker buckler as well as a mix of trinkets/perks to Max CTR and boost damage. (if you have a VH UV on the bombs you plan on using you can just stack bomb damage trinkets/perks so you have max on CTR and damage and ultra on ASI)

Ultra ASI on bombs, Max CTR on lvl 10 bombs as well as Med damage.

This is however a very invested set and would be very costly..... (though now that I think of it, it does seem pretty good)

Thu, 10/09/2014 - 12:13
#13
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

I mean I guess that's what I meant when I said-

I don't know what the developers had in mind for fallen set, but in today's game, there is no outstanding purpose or use for fallen-- just a handful of questionable areas where fallen is "better".

ASI bombing is an upgrade in some regards from normal, but it's also possibly the smallest boost you could go for for the most effort.

Sun, 10/12/2014 - 11:48
#14
Thinslayer's picture
Thinslayer
FSC

Fallen is my go-to armor of choice for FSC. If I'm carrying a Blitz, I can murder Trojans anyway (mine has a Fiend Med dmg bonus). If I'm not, then I don't have to mess with fiends anyway, as I leave that to better-equipped teammates. The defenses protect me quite well against most zombie threats.

Now, Heavenly Iron would be fantastic if I could fit it with some good status UVs...

That said, Vog Cub is probably the best utility set for FSC. That massive ASI is just beautiful, the elemental defenses block Vanaduke's fireballs and gun pup shots, and the fire defense keeps you alive and sane. It's probably a bit better than Fallen for those reasons.

Sun, 10/12/2014 - 12:15
#15
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Thinslayer

Indeed, Fallen makes for a great FSC farming set (if you know Trojan patterns), Vog is better for surviving the boss and running swords. (Iron is nice but such a pain to get)

If I'm running FSC for the boss I mix the Vog coat with Perfect mask of Seerus, other than that I run the Fallen set just because the shadow defense can keep me alive if I sip up or lag in the wrong spot

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