Spiral Knights - Shadow Lair preparation assumptions

Shadow Lair preparation assumptions

21 replies [Last post]

Mon, 10/27/2014 - 03:24

Ankung

Ok, I'm not really a new recruit, but I am to shadow lairs, so I think I can post this here.
Since I reached vanguard I thought: "This game is complete...I quit" Then I thought: "I can't quit! Then I'll miss apocrea!" Then I realized: "Shadow lairs."
So with a new goal on my mind, to gear up for a shadow lair, I set out on an epic quest for shadow lairs. So, here are some of my assumptions that I've made that I'd like to have answered.

Snarbolax is the easiest shadow lair - False

The silvermail is useful in that situation - True

The shadowsun hat is also useful in Snarby - True

Dark Briar Barrage totally pwn beasts - True, but CTR is recommended

In case the silvermail isn't useful, the undead monsters in this level are slow - False

Despite poison, Maskeraith is useful with a piercing harness - True

The gun puppies in Gloaming Wildwoods are replaced with howlitzers - True

Pulsars are the most useful guns against swarm seeds - False

Normal defence is actually good in the Unknown Passage

There are no oilers in Gloaming Wildwoods, and Ash of Agni is therefore still good there - True

Poison can and will kill me and should not be underestimated - True

Advanced orbs of alchemy drop at stratum 3 and 4 - True, but they are more common in stratum 4

Elite orbs drop at stratum 4 and 5 - True, but they are more common in stratum 5

Swarm monsters have no resistance - False, although void slimes are weak to elemental damage

Using an Argent Peacemaker will most certainly trigger wolver burrows, and might piss off teammates

SRJP and SGWW are still easier than SIMF and UFSC (What does the U in UFSC mean anyway?)

Dark retribution is a bad choice in SRJP because of minis - False, while minis are immune to DR, Lichens and Ice Queen aren't.

Biohazard is a good choice against Ice Queen - True

Skolver coat provides the best survival conditions in Frozen Palace even if you're a gunner. - False, provided that you can dodge, Seerus or black kat is better.

There still be lumbers in the Frozen Palace - True

Obsidian carbine is better than biohazard - False, provided that you use swapping to avoid reload.

All shadow lairs are technically T3 - True

Additional notes

Don't fight at traps, gather in a "safe corner" and bottleneck your enemies, probably with the cunning use of breakable blocks and high knockback weapons.
"Shadow Lairs are not so much about the spawn rate as they are about waves." - Bopp. While the rooms are more or less the same as the originals, the battles fought in them are way bigger.
You can change your equipment freely in the Unknown Passage.
Void wolvers doesn't burrow.
Swarm sources are resistant to shadow.

Mon, 10/27/2014 - 04:37

Dead-Bard

Don't assume that just

Don't assume that just because snarby was the first boss then SL snarby is also the easiest, imo it's Ice Queen but opinions may differ among people.
Since it seems you're leaning toward gunner I can't help you much, just know that the biggest threats in SL gloaming woods are undeads, not beasts, that doesn't mean tho that you should completely disregard beasts.

Mon, 10/27/2014 - 05:37

Bopp

agree

First, I agree with Dead-Bard.

Second, some of your questions have nothing to do with Shadow Lairs. For example, read the wiki page "Rarity" to learn about Orbs of Alchemy.

Third, here are some other responses.

* Equipment: Have you read the wiki page "Shadow Lair"? It covers the basic kinds of armor and weapons that you want for each. Yes, stuff like Radiant Silvermail and Fallen and Shadowsun are good. Ash of Agni is good, but keep in mind that the fights are crowded, so you may not have time to charge often. Why do you think that Supernova/Polaris is especially good against Swarm seeds? You just want to deliver a bunch of damage, and those guns don't do especially high damage.

* Monsters: You can find videos of Shadow Lairs on YouTube, to see how gun puppies get replaced by howlitzers, etc. The zombies are slow, but the kats are not. I'm not sure about the status resistances of Void monsters. Check the wiki?

Mon, 10/27/2014 - 06:51

Ankung

I told you Flibbles, I should have asked

I've checked the wiki on some of the points. For example, the "Shadow lair" wiki page says which monsters spawn, but not how many or where. I read under black Kat that they may appear in unexpected places, such as Shadow Gloaming Wildwoods, which led to the conclusion that there are very few Kats in Gloaming Wildwoods. I could have figured out the gun puppy thing though.
Since I don't want the level spoiled too much for me, I've avoided videos on all shadow lairs except ice queen, to take a look on how utterly insane they are, and unknown passage to take a look on how utterly insane that is.
I thought pulsar's expanded shots dealt massive damage, which is the reason to why I thought they were the best gun against static targets.
My assumptions on resistance come from the fact that void gel, according to the wiki, "is susceptible to elemental damage". This gave me the feeling of that the other void monsters were different from their respective family too.

I'll probably change the title to "Shadow lairs preparation assumptions". And mark the solved assumptions. And maybe add some more points.

Mon, 10/27/2014 - 07:46

Bopp

the basic idea

For example, the "Shadow lair" wiki page says which monsters spawn, but not how many or where.

You want a detailed description of where each monster spawns? Nobody could write such a thing, and you wouldn't learn anything by reading it.

The basic idea of Shadow Lairs is: Start with the ordinary boss levels. Add one or two status themes. Add traps and walls, to make the rooms more constricted, so that dodging is harder. Add many monsters, including numerous multi-wave fights. For more detail you have to watch the videos (although I admire your desire not to watch them).

I thought pulsar's expanded shots dealt massive damage, which is the reason to why I thought they were the best gun against static targets.

Supernova/Polaris' expanded shots deal more damage than their unexpanded shots, but they deal less damage than a Nova/Storm/Magma Driver shot aimed well to exploit the ricochets. To learn more, read any of the numerous threads where players compare guns. Also, the Supernova/Polaris knockback often pushes monsters away from subsequent shots, lessening their damage output.

Supernova/Polaris are mainly about crowd control, not damage. Of course, crowd control can be very useful. But in tight Shadow Lair fights your shots may not get a chance to expand.

Mon, 10/27/2014 - 07:54

Bopp

others

Dark Briar Barrage totally pwn beasts

Yes. But as others have said, beasts are not the main problem in SGWW. But DBB is also pretty good against undead. But you'll want to have lots of CTR, to get those charges off safely.

The gunner update will come
Receiving poison is bad
Gunning down zombies won't annoy teammates

Your thread would be better without such questions.

Despite poison, Maskeraith is useful with a piercing harness

I don't know whether the quill skill is useful in SGWW. But the other two skills and the perk are definitely valuable. A normal harness is also fine.

What does the U in UFSC mean anyway?

"Ultimate". Some players adopted this terminology before the Shadow Lairs were officially released.

Obsidian carbine is otherwise good

"Otherwise" from what? Where is it bad? What is this question about?

Put more effort into your questions, and people will put more effort into answering them.

Mon, 10/27/2014 - 09:35

Ankung

Bad wording strikes again!

"Otherwise" is a bad way of saying "better than a biohazard"...
"Receiving poison is bad" is a statement that I made because I don't see poison as a bad status effect to receive, but if I'll be surrounded by monsters all the time and/or be in bullet hell it might be a bad thing to be unable to heal while having heavily decreased stats.
It's mostly the spawn rate that I'm asking for. The positions would probably spoil the moment of surprise slightly and I actually have no idea of why I mentioned it.

Another question, does the piercing harness deal less damage than the normal harness?

Mon, 10/27/2014 - 09:55

Bopp

response

Umbra Driver usually does more damage than Sentenza/Obsidian, for the reasons I mentioned above (ricochets). I've never used Biohazard in Ice Queen, but others might chime in with advice on that. It's been a while, but I probably used something like Gran Faust and Ash of Agni. Haze bombs chew that place up.

All harnesses cause the same amount of damage to be done by your sprite. All that changes is the type of damage. For example, you do 114 piercing damage instead of 114 normal damage.

Poison is bad, but not as bad as fire, freeze, or shock. You can stay alive while being poisoned. For example, in Compound 42 I wear huge fire protection, because if I don't then I die. But I wear very little poison protection. Anyway, scenarios like this drive home the value of remedy capsules.

Shadow Lairs are not so much about the spawn rate as they are about waves. Since you're already watched some Ice Queen video, go back and watch the first couple of rooms. In ordinary RJP, the second room (the center room of the first level) contains a few jelly cubes and some minis. No big deal. In the Ice Queen version, it's a massive multi-wave fight, in which a typical wave has multiple giant lichens and polyps, in addition to more pedestrian jellies. This is typical of Shadow Lairs.

Here's a piece of advice. Sometimes your party finds itself fighting among traps such as spikes. The advice is: Get out of there, to a better tactical position. For example, find a safe corner and use knockback weapons to keep the monsters away from that corner while you slowly wear them down. I can't say more without spoiling certain rooms for you. :)

Mon, 10/27/2014 - 10:21

Holy-Nightmare

The best thing to do (though

The best thing to do (though it may spoil the surprise) is watch a Youtube video on a SL run. (and prepare accordingly)

I did this before I ran OCH and I'd do it again before trying out any big level I have never done before.

Mon, 10/27/2014 - 10:39

Bopp

post #3

Holy-Nightmare, post #3 explains that Ankung doesn't want to watch videos. He (or she) is conflicted. He wants the experience of encountering a Shadow Lair fresh and being wowed. But he also wants some foreknowledge, for better predictability and security. Of course he can't really have both.

Mon, 10/27/2014 - 10:52

#10

Holy-Nightmare

@ bopp

Then the only other recourse is to get a bunch of sparks and armors/weapons that protect you best

Mon, 10/27/2014 - 15:18

#11

Flowchart

Dark Retribution isn't that bad. It's great for the lichens if you don't want to be near them. And of course it shreds through the boss nearly as quickly as it does the non-SL version. However, many people complain that it lags them too much. So yeah having an additional bomb like Ash of Agni is a good idea too.

Advanced Orbs do drop in strata 2 and 4, and Elites in 3 and 5. They are just more rare than the usual ones that drop.

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 05:42

#12

Ankung

Ok, I've rewatched the first level of ice queen...

That is madness! I love it.
So, basically it's ambushes where there's usually occasional monsters (RJP's second room), party buttons where there are usually ambushes (the two branching rooms after the second room), full on assaults where there's battles (RJP's final room) and respawning monsters EVERYWHERE (everywhere). And traps. Many of them. Especially those spinning orbs. So, pretty much what Bopp said. I might add a section called "Additional information" for this stuff.

Thanks for the help! :)

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 06:45

#13

Bopp

you're welcome

Yep, it seems that you understand the idea of what's going to happen. But you still have the opportunity to be wowed. You're welcome for the help. Enjoy your Shadow Lair trip.

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 09:20

#14

Noxiousnarwhal

-Biohazard has more dps than

Biohazard has more dps than carbine as long as you are swapping. If you are not swapping to avoid reloads, you may find the carbine to be a viable alternative. The biohazard's charge is also far more useful than the carbine's in IQ due to enemies grouping in clusters rather than lines, and because the carbine charge leaves you too vulnerable even if you waste a flash charge on it. The umbra driver is certainly a valid choice as it has nearly as much dps with swapping, but biohazard is ideal if you have access to it.

Skolver coat is not the ideal armor for gunners. Black kat, seerus, chaos, and any of the 5* gunslinger hat/sash lines will allow you to avoid taking the hits in the first place. ASI/CTR/movespeed are going to save you more hearts than actual defenses, provided you're good at kiting.

Pulsars are extremely useful in the unknown passage due to the way the two arenas are - as long as you are coordinating with your team, the polaris allows you to knock enemies away and deal a bit of damage while taking down the swarm seed. You want to be keeping lumbers and slimes away from your team until they can be properly dealt with.

Enemy weaknesses/resistances in the passage are almost all the same as normal. Slimes are the exception, as they take increased elemental damage as well as shadow damage. As long as you're prioritizing slimes/gremlins when it comes to killing in the passage, you should be fine.

Have fun with the run!

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 21:36

#15

Sir-Henry-Cooldown

Wow, a thread that puts up everything in the OP.

This should get a little more attention, love to see how it develops. UNKNOWN PASSAGE TIME!

Void creatures (Swarm copies) are peculiar. Swarm Lumber and Wolvers deal only do pure Normal damage strangely (Lumber also has stun). Slimes deal only Pierce, with Poison, instead of dealing only Normal for a tackle and Pierce for the other attacks (although sources are mixed in the wiki, so meh?). The Gremlins deal both Normal and Elemental. Zombies, Normal n' Shadow. The unique monster, the Swarm Turrets, deal 82% pure, fake Normal, FROM CONCENTRATE, and they cannot be killed sadly, because their damage is EVUL.
I would say that armor that favors Normal>Other would be good, as there is a vast majority of Normal to the others. Good Trinkets are recommended for each other element.

Ratio of Normal is: 4/6 (dual-damaging Normals count as half). If sources are right, Pierce is 1/6, and Elemental and Shadow are .5/6 each.

Other note1: Swarm Souces (boosts enemies, debuffs your speed) are resistant to shadow. No one likes Shadow damage apparently.(iluvuarcheon)
Other note2: Wolvers DO NOT burrow for sum raisin.

ULTRA IMPORTANT: You can freely change equipment in Unknown Passage!

Fri, 10/31/2014 - 08:31

#16

Ankung

So, have I got this right?

There is one void monster for each damage type, and two that only deal pure normal damage. There are (luckily) no void gorgos. Most of the damage that the swarm turrets deal can't be protected against with any armor (like the thaw damage from freeze?) and they cannot be killed. They only fire one bullet at a time. Am I right this far?
The weapon specialized armors that protect against some non normal damage, but more normal than the owlite, slime and skelly lines and also provide a weapon bonus are better. Or cobalt, that defends against both slimes, wolvers and lumbers, a little against gremlins and zombies, and even slightly against swarm turrets.
Gunning wolvers is possible and so is changing equippment.

Pulsars are good in the unkonwn passage. Lumbers and slimes (and gremlins?) are the most dangerous void monsters, so the Justifier(/Nameless?) jacket is a good choice. Speed is more important than damage, thus granting more importance for the Justifier(and nameless) jacket's ASI. As for battle sprite perk? MSI II? Health boost IV? Gun CTR/ASI? Poison/Freeze protection? My personal thought about the gremlin dodge is that it is only hard when I use the slow bullets of Biohazard, and they go down rather quickly on normal anyway. Also, is their health the same as their non shadowy counterparts?

Oh, it is totally worth the 40k + 24k crowns to get fully upgraded weapon + trinket slots, right?

I'll put this up in the OP if it is right

Fri, 10/31/2014 - 08:54

#17

Bopp

don't know, but

Whether you need perfect armor and trinket slots and weapon slots depends on the quality of your party. For example, if you go with a seasoned Shadow Lair veteran, then the whole trip may not be hard at all. I guess that you should spend the extra crowns if you're in doubt.

I can't verify the details of the void monsters, other than looking them up on the wiki, which you could do instead. But I can tell you this about the Unknown Passage: Knocking monsters away from you is extremely effective, so that you don't even really need armor.

* For example, you might use heavy swords.

* Also, expanded Polaris/Supernova shots should work. But the rooms may be too crowded to get those off reliably. I've never tried Valiance there.

* For a better example, consider a party with four Nitronomes, all with CTR+6, spammed in a tight cluster. Any monsters who approach get damaged and knocked away. The only thing for the players to worry about is the occasional swarm turret projectile. If the party is camped on a swarm point, then the swarm point is suppressed at the same time. This strategy requires very little skill.

Fri, 10/31/2014 - 15:13

#18

Noxiousnarwhal

Slots are pretty much always

Slots are pretty much always worthwhile if you're using them for clear time (if you're just going for heart trinks, not so much) - you'll make the money back with how much time you save doing runs. For your sprite, go for either ASI or MSI depending on which you need - if you already have ASI max without the perk, toss on MSI for an easier time kiting.

Gremlins are going to dodge your first biohazard bullet unless you fire it straight into their dodge path, but that's okay - just shoot one to force a dodge and then tear them apart. They don't have much health, so you can kill them before they're able to pose a problem as long as you focus them.

The reason slimes, lumbers, and gremlins are so dangerous is because of how much area presence they have - lumbers are just bulky and take up a large portion of the arena in general, slimes are the only enemies other than the turrets that have a ranged attack, and gremlins attack faster than you can move away if the swarm seed is up, forcing you to shield/dodge.

If you want, I'd be willing to do a duo run with you at no charge so that you'll know what to expect for your 4 person run later on. Just send me a message ingame if you're interested!

Fri, 10/31/2014 - 19:15

#19

Bopp

forgetting a few

slimes are the only enemies other than the turrets that have a ranged attack

What about devilites, retrodes, gremlin thwackers, gremlin flamethrowers, and those other gremlins that shoot projectiles? In shorter range, there's also chromalisks and mecha knights.

Fri, 10/31/2014 - 20:16

#20

Sir-Henry-Cooldown

@Bopp-We're talking about Void creatures,Slime and Swarm Turret.

@Ankung: Swarm Turrets deal ultra Normal Damage straight up the butt, so Normal oriented armor is a must. Armor that are stronger in Normal than to it's other type are needed, with passive boosts are great.
One Void, the slimes, deal poison along with their attacks. Lumbers deal Stun per usual, and Swarm Seeds apparently cause Stun too.
- - - - -
Here are lists of great Normal+other armors (leaving out SL reward equips) for Unknown Passage, and the rest of the Shadow Lair if you want:
-Mercurial Demo: Elemental, has MSI and Bomb damage if you decide to Nitro-bump.
-Chaos Cloak: Equal Elemental, although it has one of the worst status resistances and even defense, only one (Poison) actually appears, and dem buffs.
-Black Kat:Equal Shadow, same as ^Chaos Cloak. Has MSI and Damage High if you want fast clearing.
-Deadly Virulisk Suit: Pierce and Poison, and Slime Damage Medium, best if the Slimes are your enemy.
-Ironmight: Best defense, ultra high Normal and moderate Pierce for Slime, and Stun for Lumbers! Attack speed decrease, though...
-Justifier: Same kinds defenses as ^Ironmight, but with the average Normal defense given to 5* armors, and Handgun Speed Medium! I'd say Justifier>Ironmight for those reason, personally.
-Volcanic Plate: Like ^^Ironmight, but Elemental.
-Wolver: You KNEW this would be here, pretty much all Wolvers (Snarbolax is out of the question for now) are really good, Pierce+Dam.High OR Ele.+ASI.
-Volcanic Demo: Elemental, the Bomb CTR is awesome for Nitro-bumping.
- - - - -
TD;LR moma mea datsa lotza stuf.
So, what do you guys think? Add to or criticize what I think of these, pretty much all work great.

Sat, 11/01/2014 - 05:53

#21

Bopp

oops

Oops. I think I forgot that we were focused on swarm creatures. Ignore my post #19. Sorry.

Search

Shadow Lair preparation assumptions