Spiral Knights - Balancing fiends

Balancing fiends

31 replies [Last post]

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 07:30

Dimpl

I have always felt that fiends are significantly stronger than other monster types, and today, I figured out why: they have the singular ability to change the direction of the attack after it has been 'announced' (the coloured indicator), but before it has been executed - beasts, undead, constructs, and slimes do not do this, and gremlins only do it rarely, and to a lesser extent (note, gremlins are my second-least favourite class, though this is more because of deconstruction zones, when there are clumps of 10, all carrying shields).

The three main types of fiend (devilite, gorgo and greaver) all do this (and trojans more often appear in conjunction with undeads).

Comments?

Edit: all classes of gun turrets do this to an extent as well (thought not as much as fiends), but they have the downside of being stationary

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 08:28

Krakob

A lot of enemies used to be harder in the past. OOO has nerfed plenty of them, such as Wolvers and Zombies. However, there are still plenty of enemies which can change direction after telegraphing. Kats, Mecha Knights, and so on. Personally, I like this. I wish that all enemies which have been nerfed would have their nerfs reverted in Elite difficulty, to spice the game up a bit. Thoughts on the fiends you listed:

Devilites primary difficulty comes from their huge mobility combined with bullet speed and power. A lot of players can hardly shield against them because by the time they see them telegraphing an attack, it is already too late on the server. Thus, you have to stay mobile against devilites. While interruption can be used against them, it's hard due to their jumps. You could try gunning them, but they'll dodge guns. In the end, you'll either want to either dodge and damage while bombing them or keep them interrupted and kill them quickly with swords.
Gorgos are pretty hard to fight with swords, which is not what most people are used to. Their hitboxes are generally pretty wacky and they are hard to interrupt. Therefore, you'll want to spam combos or charges against them if you use swords. If not, you just have to keep a moderate amount of distance and gun/bomb them down, which isn't very hard at all.
Greavers aren't actually that hard. People just don't really know how to deal with them well. The thing about them is that they're really scary. They charge right across your entire field of vision in a second and are right in your face, ready to attack. To deal with them, you should let them do that but stop them right there. You get at least a seconrd while they are up in your face during which you can interrupt them with absolutely any attack. If you keep them interrupted, they're about as dangerous as Mewkats. If they do manage to get attacks out, they'll start spreading haze, though. At that point, you definitely want to stay mobile but still make sure to interrupt them so that their status won't kill you.

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 09:34

Fangel

Fiends are nice as is

Fiends are probably one of my favorite enemies to fight in all honesty. Most other enemies don't take too much wit to fight against, but fiends do. Players are also used to slow powerful weapons whereas, vs fiends, you need to attack as fast as possible. Cutters are great for any type of fiend, especially if you have auto-target enabled to make sure every hit counts. Otherwise, a bomb such as dark briar barrage pretty much obliterates them.

Also you might want to fix that typo up there. Devilites and gorgos are not gremlins.

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 12:46

Holy-Nightmare

For fiends

Magnus for devilites (100% flinch and they have trouble dodging fast bullets)
Blitz for gorgos
Flourish or Troika/DA for greavers (turn off AT and spam first swing)
DBB for Trojans (just circle them planting bombs)

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 17:47

Avihr

Void

See this, see this? barely anyone here adressed the things that the OP is talking about, he's talking about fiends being stronger than other families, but umm herp derp, fiends are kewl bcz they hard hurr bring dis gun and dis sword there kill em good.

STOP, it's almost frustrating to see the forums how they are right now.

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 17:58

Fangel

Err...

The issue from OP: Fiends are harder to deal with than other enemies.

Comments: How to make fiends less difficult to deal with.

I don't see the issue. Fiends as a monster family are balanced, you just need to think outside the traditional "hit with brandish, shoot with blaster/antigua/pulsar" that works for just about every other family. Fiends are only more difficult than other families because that tactic doesn't work because they track you when attacking/have no dodge cooldown. In turn they are very easy to flinch, sans gorgos maybe.

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 20:40

Dimpl

@Krakob I think my biggest

@Krakob I think my biggest difficulty comes from server/client communication, regarding shielding devilites, gunning gorgos and interrupting greavers - particularly in an arena, I find it difficult to react in time to a greaver which jumps from the other side of the room (after considering connection lag).

I agree that more diversity would be nice,

@Fangel haha, I often mix them up xD. Part of my issue with devilites is that they do similar damage to everything else (in players, ranged attacks are significantly weaker than melee, as I would expect). My usual tactics are to avoid damage, but with devilites, I just try to reduce damage/get rid of them quickly, which is quite painful on elite. They are quite squishy, but most drudgery floors spawn a lot of them at once to compensate.

@Holy-nightmare I see you have included 2 piercing guns, after extrapolating to all monster types, I simply cannot afford that much diversity.

Wed, 10/29/2014 - 21:28

Holy-Nightmare

@ Dimpl

This game isn't supposed to be a race to the end. Take your time and amass a decent arsenal of armor and weapons. As you play you will get better and be able to use that large arsenal to it's fullest potential.

Thu, 10/30/2014 - 02:10

Inalaman

I don't think that OP wants

I don't think that OP wants to nerf fiends, buffing the rest of the families would be a nice thing to do, but lets not lie, fiends are more powerful than other stuff even if it is because commonly used or overpowered weapons don't work well against them, that kinda makes them better than the rest, doesn't it? fact is that if everything else but fiends can be roflstomped by a brandish, then there is something that needs to be adressed in terms of balance, pherhaps fiends themselves aren't the problem.

Sat, 11/01/2014 - 08:09

Dimpl

@Holy I have 4 4-5* swords

@Holy I have 4 4-5* swords and 4 4-5* guns, and am working on another set of armour. Extrapolating 2 piercing guns to all weapons, that would be 18 weapons, which would take me years to obtain. And then there are armours and shields...

After fighting fiends some more, I have come to the conclusion that they are too difficult to interrupt (particularly the buffed ones). Either this should be nerfed, or their ranged attacks should fail when used at close range.

Of course, buffing everything would be preferable to a nerf, but I think it's quite unlikely for that to happen, and my preference would be for all monster classes to be similar (regardless of actual difficulty). Additionally, the devs should switch up the meta more often (monthly would be nice), giving rarely used gear small buffs and overused gear small nerfs.

Sat, 11/01/2014 - 09:43

#10

Fangel

What weapons are you using?

I'd love to know what actual weapons you are using, as that will make me able to give you some tips on how to use them.
If you haven't invested in a dark briar barrage yet (snarbolax token reward at 2*, work it up to 5*), then you will want that. If you even have a sliver of wanting to be a hybrid, that bomb will make your life much easier against fiends. There's a reason why my universal PvE loadout has that as its dedicated piercing weapon.

Overtimers themselves are a little harder to interrupt for sure. Devilites themselves aren't too bad, as any hit will flinch them. Overtimers hit harder and have more flinch resistance, however they have a tendency to group up, making themselves prime bomb targets.

Lastly, before you make any calls for nerfs, I'd rather have you work through Heart of Ice without using a spark of life, or at most one per floor. If you're with a full team of 4, all with varying weapons, fiends are much more bearable. If you don't have 2+ people, you really do need to bring specific weapons, even if it will cost you more time and in-game (or real) money.
Basically I'd rather an experienced fiend fighter who knows strategy be making nerf calls that are reasonable. As of right now, fiends are definitely the hardest monster family because you need to either flinch them in mass, or rely on the speed bar instead of the damage one, however they do not, by any means, need a nerf.

With only a damage bonus of medium vs fiends, this is how I deal with them:
WRH, DVS, and/or Callahan + autotarget against devilites, gorgos, sometimes overtimers
DVS or Blitz needle against trojans
Dark briar barrage against devlites, gorgos, overtimers
WHR against Grievers.

See I use a total of 5 different weapons to deal with fiends. From those weapons, I would probably use dark briar barrage the most, followed by my DVS + callahan. Also my current loadout took only 3 pips of damage from a tier 3 fiend's office chair the other day, so that's a thing to invest in. (Defense is underrated until you actually do get hit. With fiends, I assume I'm going to get hit, so I bring suitable defenses.)

Sun, 11/02/2014 - 05:07

#11

Dimpl

@Fangel against fiends,

@Fangel against fiends, usually BTB/Pol. My problem is that BTB does not seem to interrupt devilites - after being hit with the combo, they pull out a projectile and hit me before I am able to shield/dodge. Most monsters fall over/cannot attack after taking 50% hp within a short window, but this does not seem to apply to fiends. So, if I have the space (particularly with overtimers), I tend to back away, strafing with the polaris.

Thanks for the advice, I'll look into a few bombs (I seem to have ctr med cold snap and firecracker which I got from... a mission?). I don't currently use any. Also, why DBB over scintillating sun shards (to cover beasts as well)?

Sun, 11/02/2014 - 01:06

#12

Janeks

typical sk player. Rush chaos acheron btb combuster and polaris, farm vanaduke, get killed every time, have trouble with fiends, avoid building non-op weapons, craft every weapon to 5 star variant, dobt have radiants to heat it, rage about low dmg on op weapons, earn millions of crowns on eternally grind of fsc, buy skolver (3 max uvs), become a colliseum player, start hating the at, write about it on forums. Every. Single. F#!"%g. Time.

Sun, 11/02/2014 - 01:53

#13

Deadagainalready

Ya this is well know

Ya man this is old news.
Every monster type has been nerfed into the ground, even fiends. Be happy there is at least 1 difficult monster class in the game and its not even that difficult.

@Janeks- The chaos rushers dont understand why Fiends own them because as Fangel pointed out no one values defense until you get hit. Chaos lacks the one thing you need against fiends if you're an inexperienced player, shadow defense. Thats why all these chaos clones get owned, they have zero shadow defense and lose half their life in 1 hit.

Sun, 11/02/2014 - 04:19

#14

Dimpl

@Janeks I don't use chaos,

@Janeks I don't use chaos, don't farm vanaduke, am building a magnus (though it doesn't live up to my expectations - does it have to be 5* to prevent dodges?) and a catalyzer, and would not describe my posts as 'raging' (TBH, I would describe your post as raging more than mine). Just because I'm not particularly good at the game, shouldn't mean that I'm not welcome on the forums... that seems very elitist of you.

Sun, 11/02/2014 - 05:11

#15

Avihr

Void

Don't worry Dimpl, these people are as shortsighted as a mole and have no idea what they're talking about, every single F~@*#"g time.

Just look at them, they rather complain that everyone else but them is a noob and shed a tear in the fact that fiends are the only monster that gives them some kind of difficulty in their own gameplay, even in their own blindness while they're hating they're still proving yet again how unfairly better fiends are when compared to the jokes that have become the rest of the monster families in comparison.

it is also to be noticed that if you are really good at this game, you don't get hit, and using chaos while fighting fiends isn't a bad idea, i've experienced how quickly fiends can be put down in whole groups while combining it with a blitz charge, wich is another of the so called OP weapons of overused everywhereness.

they aren't really talking about you, they're talking about themselves, pay no attention to them.

Sun, 11/02/2014 - 22:47

#16

Dimpl

It's all dependent on your

It's all dependent on your style of play.

@Fangel, I forgot to take armour into account when considering damage (as I don't have a shadow armour yet), so damage seems a bit more reasonable.

Wed, 11/05/2014 - 12:42

#17

Fehzor

You use polaris and barbarous thorn blade? And you have trouble with fiends? Those are easily two of the best possible counters to almost all of the fiendish situations you will encounter!

My solutions to fiends using your weapons, by monster:

Devilites : Strafe and spam polaris. Don't focus on aiming, but on dodging. It sounds like a terrible tactic, but it works relatively well, as the big clumsy bullets cover a ton of ground and deal a good bit of damage, as well as shock. You want to strafe backwards and side to side while spreading shots. If devilites are unprotected by other devilites, you can quickly end them by autoaiming your sword.

GREAVERS : Swat at them with your barb blade; use shield bash and dash to avoid them when fighting multiple. Stun lock!

Trojans : Charge your barbarous thorn blade and go for the back when it is attacking. If you aren't moving, they'll attack, so pause for half a second to trigger that. Remember to prioritize working with team mates to take them down if possible. Not doing so is usually just bad play.

Gorgos : Keep at a distance, and spam polaris. If they crowd you early on, use your sword to swat them away and dash or shield bash through them out of harm to continue polarising them to death.

Silkwings : Utilize the 2nd and 3rd hits of your sword to single it out of a crowd, and continue to maul it.

Be sure to tell me how it goes. These are some of the tactics I use in missions like heart of ice, as well as fiend arenas in general, and they haven't steered me wrong so far. The one exception really being grinchlin assault, which is a different story altogether.

Tue, 11/04/2014 - 00:12

#18

Dimpl

@Fehzor that's how I deal

@Fehzor that's how I deal with overtimers (if the bullets are properly spread they will dodge into another bullet). I only really have a problem with grievers en masse in arenas (as their range covers the whole area).

What properly bugs me is when devilites wait until I attack/deshield before attacking, or attack immediately after my BTB combo - due to serverside execution and detection of enemy attacks, they are able to target the lag window perfectly (maybe this is less of an issue for US players?).

Tue, 11/04/2014 - 00:53

#19

Flowchart

happens for US too, they know which frames you are vulnerable in, and attack accordingly. Better to wait for them to attack, or don't use slower attacks.

Tue, 11/04/2014 - 11:30

#20

Knight-Solaire

Error 404: subject not found

Fiends are fine, it's server connections that need to be balanced. Anything less than four bars, and you've already been hit by an Overtimer before you see them telegraph the attack.

In response to "fiends are harder than anything else," I'm pretty sure this is by design (8-1 Darkest Forces does refer to fiends as "the worst creatures you'll find," implying this is intentional). If anything, other monster families need to be buffed--tracking for Wolver bites and Zombie swipes, for example, could be brought back to demand more attention be paid while fighting them.

Tue, 11/04/2014 - 11:32

#21

Ewbte

@Rare

nuff said

Tue, 11/04/2014 - 11:52

#22

Holy-Nightmare

@ Rare

Aside from the connection is the fact that most players would rather rely on their feet than their shield.

Good dodge skills are a must but so are good shield skills, if you know you are probably going to get hit and still try to dodge you are risking your HP. If you have a shadow type shield (COA or Dread Skelly) then they aren't going to break from one devilite projectile.

Shield yourself and try to stay out of the situation that made you have to sheild.

@ Dimpl

When fighting deviltes you should probably have on Auto Target (some people think AT is bad but considering that fiends use it you should use it).
The point of using a magnus is to use it's flinch rate to keep the devilite from running, space out your shots enough so you don't have to reload. (the amount of time reloading gives the devilite a chance to escape)

If you want to deal more damage you will have to use a flourish or a Blitz, just don't be suprised when a devilite pelts you for trying to stab or blitz them.

Tue, 11/04/2014 - 11:53

#23

Avihr

Void

In response to "fiends are harder than anything else," I'm pretty sure this is by design (8-1 Darkest Forces does refer to fiends as "the worst creatures you'll find," implying this is intentional). If anything, other monster families need to be buffed--tracking for Wolver bites and Zombie swipes, for example, could be brought back to demand more attention be paid while fighting them.

Or it could just be an allusion to their evil nature more than intentional design, that phrase is pretty much up to one's personal interpretation.

And I 100% agree that other families need a buff, I never meant for fiends to be nerfed or anything like that, I am just against the idea that most users seem to pose that fiends are "fine" thats an argument that i'm not willing to lose any time soon, you heard me, never ever ever.

Tue, 11/04/2014 - 12:41

#24

Knight-Solaire

Error 404: subject not found

@Aviri
In context, Hahn is talking about their difficulty. That was just a short quote to illustrate the point that it is intentionally so.

@Holy-Nightmare
Agreed, proper shields > dodging against fiends*, Devilites and Grievers especially. Dodging a tracked throw will be harder than it looks, and the average player's BTS will be shredded like wet tissue. CoA is love, CoA is life.

*Exception for Trojans. When one of those is coming at you, it's better to sidestep. And for the love of Vog, if you are in a group and have its aggro, stay the [redacted] still; running in circles won't let you get behind it (no matter how long you try), and makes it significantly more difficult for your partymates to finish it.

Tue, 11/04/2014 - 13:12

#25

Vohtarak-Forum

I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

rare dimpl fehzor theyre GREAVERS not grievers, wow

also I dont find fiends that hard to deal with, even now when im running with a 3* surge breaker shield
they can be dealt with if you know what you're doing, but I only have a problem when ones switch aggro to you for no reason

Tue, 11/04/2014 - 13:49

#26

Holy-Nightmare

Devilite infighting

It would be nice if the bullets the fiends threw at their Pit bosses did damage (you watch they do that).

@ Rare on trojans

Bombs work when you circle trojans, other than that it is best to keep them pivoting not full 360s mind you but keep them going back and forth within a small range (10 to 20 degrees is fine).

Tue, 11/04/2014 - 18:34

#27

Dimpl

@Holy I would love a CoA, but

@Holy I would love a CoA, but am having a tough time getting the seals, as everyone else seems to have already farmed FSC to boredom.

@Rare the reason I find fiends to be the biggest problem is because they're fast, so the effects of lag are much more pronounced when fighting them.

I find fiends to be much more managable solo as I can control their movements, fight more slowly and flinch them. When fighting in a group, I just can't respond quickly enough to shield projectiles I'm not actively paying attention to (though my shield is up before I'm hit client-side).

Tue, 11/04/2014 - 18:45

#28

Holy-Nightmare

@ Dimpl

I mentioned the Dread Skelly Shield too, you can get it much easier than a blackened crest.

In fact the Sinister Skelly Shield (4star) has more defense than a blackened crest.

Tue, 11/04/2014 - 22:56

#29

Avihr

Void

Rare, cmon... you can't just take whatever an npc says seriously and say that fiends are intentionally harder than other families because that is just ridiculous, theres lots of reasons he could say something like that, or in fact there could be no reason for him to say that other than being there as filler or a personal opinion of his, having fiends being harder than other families isn't logical either, why would they, they aren't an upgrade to he clockworks or other monsters nor they reward players accordingly to the increased difficulty.

But I will give it the benefit of doubt anyway, If fiends are really intentionally harder than other stuff I am ready to abandon everything I said, even if it doesn't make any sense, theres nothing I can say about it if that is the case other than "working as intended", for now I have no reason to believe that, so I will stand by my opinion.

Tue, 11/04/2014 - 23:43

#30

Knight-Solaire

Error 404: subject not found

@Aviri
Developers coded fiends' behavior. Developers wrote dialogue about fiends' behavior. I am tempted to take seriously said dialogue concerning the behavior of said fiends.

I believe it is intentional, just as strongly as you seem to believe it isn't. We'll need to agree to disagree here, I guess.

Wed, 11/05/2014 - 12:56

#31

Fehzor

@Oohnorak

Thanks, I fixed it on my post.

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Balancing fiends