Gear Lists
Sa, 11/01/2014 - 10:45
I feel like these should have the option to be sorted by defenses/offenses - normal/ele/fire etc.
I looked through the discussion section on these pages, and couldn't find anything regarding this. "Possible Effect" (see handgun list for example, it seems redundant with "Abilities") is very nice, and I'd like to expand these lists in this fashion.
Reasoning: stats images are useful, but they don't help you FIND things as much as other formats could. Main lists should be all about finding what you're looking for. Acies' various categories (shields providing blah defense etc) are very useful, but many users do not utilize categories, sadly.
When I was a nubby, I remember trying to find more shadow-defensive shields etc, and ended up having to look through each stat image.
Having a sortable option for these various defenses would be ideal, I think. I have a clean and visually pleasing design in my mind, but this would obviously be a pretty major change, so I want opinions first.
Sa, 11/01/2014 - 13:17
#2
@Bopp
Extremely similar yes! But a little more cartoonypuffy for our lovely younger users as well as wiki familiarity :)
Thanks for prompt feedback!
Something will be in the sandbox soon.
I'd love to do the default coding order of the list by DoR, since the table can be sorted alphabetically, and DoR is yet more information.
Figuring out how best to talk about attack speed, going to be rudimentary for now. Any thoughts on how best to summarize the terminology for attack speed?
Was thinking "very slow," "slower," "average," "faster," "very fast" but that's not really all that accurate. Perhaps # of speed bar segments? Hmm. I like the segment idea, cause then the table can be sorted ascending/descending for comparing all attack speeds, adding to a more holistic understanding.
EDIT: actually, this is just annoying, and variable. Will mention something at top of list.
Was thinking about having "basic attack behavior" and "charge attack behavior" columns, but the variety of attacks would be annoying to keep consistent in a table. I figure the "series" column should cover this with implied information, which I should mention at the top.
EDIT: rudimentary table in Sandbox. Feed it feedback :D
Sa, 11/01/2014 - 13:02
#3
smaller icons?
Is there a way to make the icons smaller?
On my laptop, I have to make the web browser fill the screen, to get the browser window wide enough, to have the table's formatting look good. Smaller icons might help. Or fewer columns, or shorter text.
Sa, 11/01/2014 - 13:14
#4
@Bopp
Icons are typically 36px around the wiki for every table and I'd like to maintain that standard. Usually webpages are designed with the intent to spatially cater to a window with how the %border codes work, and our wiki does this.
For the attack types and abilities, I can shrink them to improve the width, but as for the main icon of the weapon, I don't want to do anything but 36px.
There's a lot of different screensizes/windowsizes etc. out there and it's best to maintain a standard, especially when the length of a list is constantly changing. You can zoom in/out, but that will also affect the text. Not much I can do about this here.
Sa, 11/01/2014 - 13:26
#5
Oki
Check out the table now. Suggestions? Please read the notes above the table too, should help a ton.
Sa, 11/01/2014 - 13:26
#6
800 pixels
I understand wanting to keep the icon sizes standard.
I don't remember perfectly, but I recall hearing something like: Our wiki pages should be designed for an 800-pixel width.
A lot of people view this stuff on mobile phones now, even.
Sa, 11/01/2014 - 14:28
#7
@Bopp
It seems to be 800 px yes. I can try to put in a size restrict (table coding seems to auto-expand to 100% for some formats) but it might look a little weird and take a while to tweak. If I were educated in coding I could tell you the terms, but alas, I only self-teach and can only do so much. I just change things based on user/editor feedback and do a lot of image formatting. Hence my boatload of template requests over time :P
The tables of these pages just fill the width of the display (regardless of text space in cells) with a 100% border code. Would this be preferable? Personally I don't like it.
Went for lunch, back now with rice <3
Sa, 11/01/2014 - 18:02
#8
rice is nice
My opinion is that tables look terrible as soon as some rows spill over into multiple lines (and others don't). And the multiple lines look even worse when the first line is indented because of an image. So you can understand why I think that your proposed table looks terrible. (I don't mean this as an insult, but rather as frank criticism, which I think you can take. :)
If you look at my list of 5-star items, you can see that I've worked hard to avoid making the table rows break lines. I've used abbreviations, and I've collapsed all of the damage types into a single column.
Ultimately, the solution is either to accept an ugly table or to limit the amount of information that you display in each table.
Hmmm. Here's a more creative idea: The Divine Avenger entry (which for me has the icon and the word "Divine" on one line, and then the word "Avenger" on a second line) would look better if there was an icon spanning two lines, with the words "Divine" and "Avenger" on one line each, to the right of the icon. Can you engineer that? You could if you put the icon into its own column...
Sa, 11/01/2014 - 19:16
#9
OH
I see what your problem is now. The table does not have line breaks at all on my various computers (I demo preview on several monitors) but I can't demo with every scenario. I wonder what you're doing or what you're using to browse webpages to make it line break that badly.
Please try not to use those kinds of words though. The reason I focus so much on the wiki is because I have depression due to several terrible events in my life and need massive amounts of distraction. It's better to figure out what the problem is instead of just saying something looks ugly or terrible. But that brings me to another point, I can't work on this until other things are more cemented in.
But yeah in my head, if I saw the table like I think you see it, I'd be like "WTF is she thinking?"
Anything else about the table? It's in rudiment junk form right now, so I'll have to actually create a template to get it to lock and not line break. Which I didn't want to do until people gave more feedback about what columns we should have.
This is what the table looks like on my monitors. Based on THAT image, what do you think? Please don't joke around about how you can't sort the image ;P. I plan on making more things just blank if they don't have, say, status, that text is just there so I don't get confused with my junk code.
This is the code I use that locks things so lines don't break. So yes, I can do this easily, but only in certain formats, which I didn't want to build up to until, as I've said, we know what columns we want.
Send me a screenshot of what it looks like for you, so I can get a better idea of what's going on on your end. Do other tables around the wiki do this for you? They might just be missing that width control I highlighted in the coding on the second image.
You don't admire me on your knight page ;n;. I don't need admiration or anything, but it makes me wonder... what am I doing wrooooooong :(?
I guess I've not actually been doing this much work for all THAT long...it doesn't feel long anyway...
Sa, 11/01/2014 - 19:59
#10
ok
Okay, sorry for saying "terrible". I don't want to be mean.
The table looks good in your screenshot.
To see what I see, can't you just resize your browser window to make it narrower? Or increase your text size, so that the text takes up more room?
Anyway, I agree that this is probably not worth worrying about until later in the design of the page.
Sa, 11/01/2014 - 20:36
#11
@bopp
Well sure, but I wouldn't know ABSOLUTELY what you're seeing, and I don't like making assumptions, know what I mean?
If the table in the image looks good, I'll start making the actual template for it.
Also, hehe at your edit. I was afraid somewhere I'd made you upset somehow. And I only like making bombies upset.
This page is great source of info to get people to understand that different people can see webpages horribly differently based on how templates occupy the space.
So, 11/02/2014 - 11:36
#12
okay
okay, little pooped out, how does the armor list in the sandbox feel? I cannot progress without feedback at this point.
Probably going to let it sit for a while, because exams are coming up again the next few weeks. Well, at .least I had time for wiki this past weekend!
So, 11/02/2014 - 12:15
#13
much better
It seems that you have done my "icon on the left, one or two lines of text on the right, top-aligned" idea for the Name column. It looks much better now.
Can we get the same effect on the Abilities column? Because the icons there are similarly breaking up the text.
Also, under Proto Sword's abilities I would leave blank instead of saying "Standard". Less text means less visual clutter.
So, 11/02/2014 - 16:40
#14
Feedback
Sorry, sort of put the sword template down for a while and been working on the Armor template. Feedback on the armor template? And yes, there will be no text there as mentioned, just have not gotten to it yet.
Also, they shouldn't be breaking. A screenshot of what you're seeing would help a lot.
Do other lists, like the accessory list, have breaks for you?
EDIT: got an idea in my head, working on it.
So, 11/02/2014 - 17:13
#15
what page?
What page am I supposed to be looking at? I've been looking at
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Sandbox
I see the Armor table now, for the first time. It looks good. Why are some of the entries (for Fallen, Ancient Plate) in the Star column red?
So, 11/02/2014 - 17:50
#16
@Bopp
Sometimes the wiki doesn't show things properly unless you're logged in.
Idk when you looked at it, but I've been adding tons of little stuff here and there. Anyway, if you missed it about the red stuff:
Red means that the item has some sort of penalty, and I say to "see individual pages for details" near the top. It should catch the attention of a new player who's getting overly excited about how perfect Fallen seems to be - and with more research, they'll know that it is good some places, and not others.
I've got the icons to scale to the strength of the ability if there's only one ability (smaller icon for low, larger icon for high). If the item has more than two abilities, they're just always small.
mousing over the icon shows a tooltip stating the strength of the ability.
Right now I'm working on getting the table to be able to sort the abilities (so that all items with +sword dmg bonuses will cluster together etc.) and that is going to take a while.
I'm very glad that we have icons for pet perks, this wouldn't be so cool without them. Doable, but not as cool.
OOO needs to design a uniform Charge Time icon. Bleh. It's the only one missing (uniform MS, AS, and DMG are icons on the wiki and in the files already). But not CTR. I wonder if I could just use the bomb symbol? or would that be confusing?
EDIT: oh yay, it is working. Going to populate table a bit more so it actually LOOKS like it's working.
So, 11/02/2014 - 18:55
#17
yeah
By the way, the issue wasn't that I wasn't logged in. I'm basically always logged in. The issue was the weird caching behavior of the wiki. I should have reloaded more often.
Using the bomb symbol for CTR isn't outrageous. The damage bonus buff that you pick up in the Clockworks looks like a sword, even if all of your weapons are guns or bombs.
Mo, 11/03/2014 - 23:55
#18
Still Workin on it
-Put in color-coded icons for status resistances and weaknesses for easier looking at a longer list
-took out series column, as I don't think that is really needed in this sort of table (the order is DoR, and then within DoR, series, so it's roughly got the series in order already).
-trying to improve sorting with the defense/status columns. EDIT: did it by star level, but the coding I used is bulky and weird. If anyone knows a better way, go for it.
EDIT: table is pretty much live for Armor, just need to establish default order (which I think should be by DoR, and within DoR, alchemy path). It's following this order in general up until grey feather mantle.
I want to put groundbreaker, spiral protos into different tables since their acquisition shouldn't be in a list of primary, obtainable armors that people use to compare stats in order to plan to get an armor, when these cannot be obtained (or are obtained in one form, once) - meaning, not even a returning promo is going to bring these back. Well I mean maybe but probably not.
Di, 11/04/2014 - 00:12
#19
Armor Table is Pretty Much done
Armor Table is Pretty Much finished: any final edits/suggestions for the table before I encourage other editors to fill in the table in the sandbox?
Should we add a #column to the right for easier resetting (don't have to refresh page etc.)? This also lets anyone curious know how many armor items there are total, pretty easily (minus specials, GM armor, reskins, and other oddities). This would be extremely easy to do, but sorta add clutter.
Di, 11/04/2014 - 07:42
#20
penalties
I know that you've put in a lot of work, but I think that the penalties need to be handled better. In the version I'm seeing, they're still just hinted at in red. They should probably be in the abilities columns with some kind of minus sign. Is this doable?
Please do not add a column for resetting.
Di, 11/04/2014 - 09:50
#21
@Bopp
The problem with this is that it adds clutter to the table. You have to pick and choose what to put in a comparative table like this, and keep it simple.
What do players look for? Defenses, sometimes abilities, and they like a quick rank check too (hence the star rating column). Adding an elaborate penalties column (as elaborate as positive abilities) would not be overly helpful, and not be used - with the red (which sorts itself, by the way :D) people can be alerted to the presence of a penalty, and investigate if they wish. I guess what I'm saying is that most penalty data is largely not a concern, since most items do not have ability penalties, with their "penalties" being in status weaknesses instead. There are also not enough items in the game to warrant a dedicated sort mechanism beyond this simple red one I've put in place.
If the game ever has a ton more armors with "Ability Penalties," sure, a column would be needed for that. I've always thought that, say, the skolver should resist slime, but not beast, since beasts are weak to piercing and the coat is definitely of the beast. Glacies had this idea and I generally like it. Anyway, this is not the suggestions forum, haha! So back to the wiki table:
Putting penalties in the ability column in with the "positive" abilities would make it look less sleek, IMO.
In summary, (again, IMO), red is enough for a comparative table, doesn't get in the way, is informative without being obnoxious, and can be generally used by players searching for weaknesses (which is a thing, for people bored and wanting a challenge).
As a compromise, I can design specific switches to have tooltips with the penalty information in addition to the positive ability, and players need only to notice the red number and mouseover the ability icon to find out what that penalty is. How's that?
Glad about the reset column being a no, as I don't much like that either, when the page can simply be refreshed.
Any other ideas/suggestions?
Di, 11/04/2014 - 10:29
#22
that's why my table looks like it does
To be clear, Fallen's fiend penalty is an ability, just as its ASI is an ability. The fiend ability just has a negative value. If your ability icons had both positive and negative variants, then you could deal with this easily. You already do exactly this idea for status resistances.
You still have just two columns for abilities. The only piece of armor that has more than two abilities is Ancient Plate. I'm not sure what to do about its third ability. I agree that adding an entire column for this one armor type is wasteful of space. By the way, having two damage protection columns is almost as big a waste of space, because in all but three armors one of the damage types is normal.
What do players look for? Defenses, sometimes abilities, and they like a quick rank check too (hence the star rating column).
That is a reasonable question to ask. My conclusion, from more than three years spent in the Arsenal forum discussing equipment with both experts and newbies, and reading and writing equipment guides, and performing tests and reading the tests of other researchers, is that the answer is (or should be):
* First: Abilities and shock/fire/freeze.
* Second: Damage protection and other status resistances.
That's why my List of 5-Star Items deemphasizes damage protection.
However, even if you agree, we come upon the problem of "editorializing" in wiki articles. It's not really our place to decide what's important and what's not. But only so much information can fit into the table. Currently you are deemphasizing penalties. I do not agree that they should be deemphasized.
Di, 11/04/2014 - 10:51
#23
@Bopp
What about the compromise I came up with? Feedback on that?
And yes, I've clearly stated that penalties are essentially negative abilities in the helpfultext above the table.
There are two columns for defenses because every armor has two defenses. These are set, consistent values that can vary.
There is not an HP column because every armor's hp behaves the same depending on star and heat level, unless it has an HP ability. These are not consistent values-which-vary like defenses, as not every item has abilities.
There is a column for ability 1 and 2 because enough armors have 1-2 abilities to warrant comparative columns. At first I only had one column, but quickly realized that wouldn't work due to the high number of items with dual abilities.
The negative abilities in an otherwise massively positive ability column with the current icon setup would not be conducive to understanding, even with a clearly negative icon, it just wouldn't feel right. I spent some time yesterday getting the status weaknesses and resistances as different yet consistent as possible to facilitate understanding - icons are memory imprints, and I don't want to make too many "fake" icons (like a fiend with a red x behind it for penalty - it would work but it's just, meh). Most players don't want to see negatives as "abilities" (even though they technically are) because that's like saying "I have the ability to stab myself. Hurray!"
Players can still totally find "ability penalties" with this table.
Hence compromise: Would really love feedback on tooltip compromise :P
So I can spend time on that with others.
Di, 11/04/2014 - 11:16
#24
Penalty Tooltips
I have them up and running in the most recent sandbox for fallen and ancient. Firefox doesn't particularly like linebreaking tooltip boxes, so I've put in a bunch of space to force line breaks. Forced-linebreaks via character occupation isn't really ideal for looking professional, but the idea here is what matters.
Feedback on tooltip penality information?
If the tooltip isn't a happy, I can just add another column for penalties and cram more than one penalty (if the item has one) in the box. I have a feeling that more items with penalties will be introduced anyway.
But definitely a "no" from me regarding having the penalty in the almost entirely positive abilities columns. Yes, penalties are "abilities" but it just doesn't feel right.
Di, 11/04/2014 - 12:29
#25
The darn penalties
Got some more feedback. It seems a penalty column is in order. Especially since it leaves room for easier edits in the future, if more items are given penalty abils.
Di, 11/04/2014 - 12:48
#26
tooltips
Here's what I see: http://wiki.spiralknights.com/File:Boppnovaster.png. You're probably not seeing exactly the same thing, right?
I don't know the solution to our disagreement. Ultimately, you're making the page and I'm not, so ties should get broken in your favor. I just foresee a lot of players getting upset when they craft Armor of the Fallen and realize that, far from being a great armor, it actually kind of stinks, all because of a "detail" that they were expected to discover in a mouse-over.
Di, 11/04/2014 - 13:03
#27
@Bopp
Yeah, tooltips that are too large won't work. This is a standard over the whole internet, though. I was just trying to be creative. That tooltip looks awful, and I expected that. Oh well. Worth a try!
Fallen doesn't stink all that bad ;P
Players would need to read individual pages thoroughly before making an item, that's just common sense, the main list is just a general comparison. Don't blame that! That's like not reading the warning on an advertised pill that says "compare to blahblah brand" on the front.
For the penalties column, I'm not sure what to do about icons we don't have yet... like I said, I don't like making "fake" icons, even if they communicate the subject matter. I might settle for a big red X behind the picture, of say, the fiend monster icon for fallen.
Di, 11/04/2014 - 13:08
#28
+1 Bopp
A sortable, expanded list should have ALL of the item information arrayed in a visually comprehensive form.
Requiring additional steps (mouse hover, clickthrough, etc) defeats the purpose of this project. It will ask more effort from the wiki user than the current system.
--Chesh
PS: I don't mind the current list system. Yes, it takes a few seconds to visually scan for the colored bars I want. That's not a big deal, and the current lists do not require a terrible amount of maintenance.
Damage types (norm/ele/pier/shad) are always positive. If you just wanted to add columns for damage type that would increase utility but not overly complicate the list or the list administration.
Di, 11/04/2014 - 14:00
#29
@Cheshireccat
Mouseover takes a split second and keeps information compact. Sortable, visually based icons drastically reduce searchtime, especially compared to the current list. Mousing-over actually greatly, extremely, can't-say-it-enough facilitates the purpose of the project. I just got carried away with them regarding penalties because they are so convenient. This table will actually significantly lessen wiki editor work, as opposed to increasing it (long run), in terms of plug-n-chug (unless we get entirely new abils, haha). I say this with ten tons of confidence as a mediocre coder who spends hours and hours on the wiki.
If you put too much information in a table, it becomes less desirable and is too large for many browsers/screens (which is what much of this forum thread from Bopp was about, especially 800px limit). You wouldn't want recipe info, accessory slot info, tier-to-tier based info, etc. This sort of thing has already been discussed at length in this thread. I've already had a lot of positive feedback about the mouseovers, which is why I went ahead and did them for everything, which only took about 10 minutes. Compression while maintaining communication = tooltips.
Many people (dozens of complaints, at least 1 every other week) despise the current system (especially new players) including myself, so I finally decided to do something about it. There's no way I'd put this much effort into a table (and bother icytea to help me ;P) unless a lot of people wanted it, and boy, they sure do. It's sort of been an elephant in the room on my to-do list, and because it is a very fat elephant (because it is a large change) I didn't want to do it, but it finally got too itchy.
This list won't require any maintenance besides updating it with new items once the coding is finished, unless, again, new abilities are added, which would require more edits anyway. It will be even easier than before for editors, just plugging in at the bottom so the list is by DoR default.
EDIT: also, Bopp, you can upload junk images like that to imgur and other places, putting that sort of thing on the wiki doesn't make a lot of sense.
Sorry if I sound terse, I'm trying to make everyone happy, everyone has different computers and habits and it's very difficult.
Di, 11/04/2014 - 18:15
#30
mouse-overs, image uploading
Mouse-overs don't seem inconvenient, until you compare them to a table that shows everything without mouse-overs. I want to be able to compare 20 armors at once, without mousing over any of them.
Yes, it's hard to develop such a delicate interface that works well in so many different web browsers. You have my sympathy.
I don't touch sites like imgur. Garbage files can always be deleted from the wiki. My way also takes Three Rings' copyright rights seriously.
Where are all of these complaints about the current item lists? I read many (but not all) of the forums religiously, and never see such complaints. Or maybe I misunderstand what you mean.
Di, 11/04/2014 - 19:03
#31
@bopp
going to try something totally different!
Complaints are from friends, guildies, and conversations with strangers that I start up in game. I attempt to not phrase them as leading or in a biased way, of course.
I think what I'm planning on doing will take a horribly long time to implement but be better, we'll see in a few.
Di, 11/04/2014 - 21:04
#32
Okay New Plan!
There's a new table in the sandbox. It is a compromise between the 3 commenters in this thread and various in-game feedback.
The decimal numbers refer to the number of pixels in each block of a stats bar, up to 15, with 16 simply being a full block. Segments of old and new stat images (due to the UI update making everything all shiny and whatnot) are the same, but I think checking them carefully would be a good idea, yus.
Each block, including the first block (even though it is not a whole block, I imagine half of it is behind the shield symbol), is worth 1. Compare the items I have put in the table. Tedious, but once in place, very accurate?
Then we make it so the numbers sort of pertain to a %, so like, 8 pixels is 50% of 16 pixels, so a 7-block segment plus 8 pixels of the next segment = 7.5
yeah pretty tedious. The numbers in the table have not been converted this way yet.
Suggestions? Preferences?
these numbers are color coded for defense and status, with status columns being slightly darker to help keep from getting, well, dizzy/jumpy. It should help quite a lot when the list is longer.
I have mouseover tooltips for abilities and penalties, which I'm working on sorting in a better manner. The icons scale in size in relation to the intensity of the ability or penalty (low, med, high, etc.)
All this in 800px!
As always, feed it with feedback.
Mi, 11/05/2014 - 08:10
#33
shorter Name cells
By the way, what we're doing here is slowly repeating the same design decisions that I encountered when I made my List of 5-Star Items. I thought pretty hard about them then. So, by looking at my list, you can see where I want you to end up.
It seems that you've squeezed in a penalty column by allocating less space to the Name column. That's fine with me, but wouldn't it have worked with your old setup too?
For status defenses, it would be better to use the +1, +2, +3, +4 ratings described at the wiki page Abilities. It would clean up the table quite a bit, visually speaking. And these ratings are essentially objective --- completely uncontroversial.
For damage defense, I can understand wanting to use the pixels in the bars. But I think that this is much too much detail. There's no practical difference between 6.05 normal defense and 7.05 normal defense. If you really want to proceed with this plan, consider omitting the decimal point (so 605, 705, etc.), just to make it visually cleaner. Consider also just reporting the bar length in actual pixels.
Also, you might want to read armor threads, to see where the bar starts. My recollection is that the first partial bar is purely cosmetic. The true bar starts after that.
Mi, 11/05/2014 - 09:14
#34
@Bopp
Thanks for the feedback. If there really is no difference (honestly? as a player I just don't get hit and use a glass cannon build, so I actually don't know the fine details of difference when it comes to the rather-similar stats bars). I was wondering about that for a while - since the lowest defense bars in the game still stars after that half bar+shield thing.
But this doesn't seem to be the case for status? Just defenses?
Volcanic Salamander Suit is the longest armor name in the game, and 193-200 pixel space works well for its name to stay a single line of text. I think as long as it stays one line, the maximum size of the width of a cell should be determined by the longest single line in the column (volc sala). More space than that isn't necessary, and in fact bothers me, personally. It can be adjusted slightly if anything with a longer name comes out quite easily.
Warmaster Rocket Hammer is the longest sword name, and I think the longest gear-item name (have not looked too hard yet) so I might make all the namespace tables (armor/helm/shield/bomb/handgun/sword) the same size in accordance to the WMH. As far as old setup goes, no, not with the coding I had in place, cause that was junk code. Assuming you mean the first demo table. ATM it's not a single line due to the space the code allocates for single-entity texts, which is normal here, we have long, single number values. That will change.
So, for status, use the +/- whole numbers? I'm a little confused about the numbers in your table (like as a noob I would be) - the # isn't equal to the stat bar segments, for, say, dread skelly suit/mask at Heat Level 1. This is explained in the abilities page, but would it be best for a noobie looking at a general table? Like I said in post #3, the table will be similar to yours, just more "cartoony" and formatted a bit differently. What I was going for before was a simple table that just let new players find out "oh this has shadow defense," but a lot of feedback, particularly from Cheshireccat in-game yesterday, made me realize that the table could still be a simple "oh this has shadow defense" but also have a more reliable ability to actually compare items, while still being compressed and not confusing.
We are fortunate that these items have relatively simple and few properties. Take a gander at the Warframe wiki's weapon comparison page . Oh boy, lots of data! And they had to do some major compression with symbols too. Anyway:
For defenses and health...use pixels? But that's not consistent with how we view status numerically. My concern is for future wiki editors trying to describe defense bars numerically in a way that's consistent with all visual bars for an item. So I'd like to know what to do about that.
What bothers me is that the game could easily alter the UI and completely bust up the pixel method.
Just use our eyesight best we can? "Eyeball" it? If the differences, as you say, are not all that huge? Round down close to the left, keep it at .5 close to half, and round up close to the right within a given segment?
Or apply the maths of low/med/high etc. to defense bar values as well (like we do with status)?
IDK what would be best here.
Mi, 11/05/2014 - 09:13
#35
agree
To be precise, there is a small difference between 6.05 and 7.05 damage defense. It's something like a fraction of a health pip, and hence a tiny fraction of a monster hit. I don't remember exactly. But in any event there is no practical difference between 6.05 and 7.05, in that it's extremely unlikely that 7.05 armor will let you survive a hit that kills you in 6.05 armor. Thus an informed player would never plan his armor based around the difference between the two. Thus a useful armor list would never emphasize the difference. Thus my List of 5-Star Items deemphasizes such stuff.
I agree with your Name column spacing, although it's worth noting that a player with larger font size might have a different experience. You can't make the table pretty in every conceivable setup. Some setups will result in ugliness. No big deal.
I prefer numerals for status resistance, because there is a practical difference between +2 and +4, especially when trying to achieve immunity. But numerals move you away from your cartoony ideal. Your system yesterday (plus and minus icons) was acceptable.
I agree with your misgivings about damage defense bars. But there is no perfect solution. For what it's worth, the pixel measurements are independent of screen size, and they have never been changed since the game launched (I think).
The primary goal of your table should be usefulness. We have a useful measure of status defense (+1, +2, etc.), but not of damage defense. So for damage defense we resign ourselves to something less useful: pixels, or just a vague "high", "medium", "low", or no quantification at all, as in my List of 5-Star Items.
Mi, 11/05/2014 - 09:20
#36
@Bopp
Perhaps I could scale the +/- icon sizes in accordance with intensity of resistance, like I've done with the bonuses/penalties? (Would be annoying to code but entirely doable). Intensity being low/med/high etc.
I'll go with pixels for the defense bars. Easy enough, just multiply the number of whole bars x16 and then add the pixels in the incomplete bar. Make special note for wiki editors to not count that first segment that the shield symbol touches.
How's that?
Mi, 11/05/2014 - 09:30
#37
bad and good
I vote against scaling the icons. I didn't even realize that you were doing that in the abilities, but I wondered why the icons looked so inconsistent. Admittedly I'm not offering a better plan about how to convey the magnitude of the ability.
By the way, your ability columns don't convey the difference between Chaos and Mad Bomber, right? I mean, blanket abilities (all weapons CTR) vs. weapon-specific abilities (bomb CTR). This is hard to design. Obviously you can see how I chose to solve the problem in my List of 5-Star Items.
Your pixel plan sounds good.
Mi, 11/05/2014 - 10:04
#38
@Bopp
I'll do the scaling for +/- and we'll see how it looks, since that seems the best option atm. It's also the most supported, feedbackwise, of anything so far. Why do you vote against? It allows users to icon-associate and get a general idea at a glance. The tooltip can be used in addition to this, to make sure - hovering over the DMG buff icon shows the intensity it gives. These two things together (scaled visuals and tooltips) seem pretty solid, in terms of table communication.
I've not put bomber/swordie/gunner things in yet - don't worry, I'll be using Battle Sprite perk icons. I've made a note above the table about that. Always read the notes above my tables, btw, they help with a lot of things. Not all tables are entirely intuitive (and I mean tables in general, not just mine ;P I believe that all tables/graphs etc. need notes explaining them, because I write lab reports irl as part of what I do).
I stuck snarb coat in there to demonstrate. I'll stick arcane in there too, compare to volc sala's slime bonus icon. These are alphabetical (ctr, dmg ... beast,slime) from left to right in two columns if the item has more than one bonus ability.
Mi, 11/05/2014 - 10:16
#39
response
My only objection to scaling the icons was that they are "inconsistent" --- which was my attempt at a polite way of saying "ugly". But go ahead, because I have no better idea. Sprite perk icons seem like a rich vein to mine. And putting the magnitudes in tooltips makes sense.
Sorry for not reading the explanatory text above your table, but that was a deliberate decision on my part. The typical reader is not going to read any explanatory text. He or she expects the table to be easily understandable on its own. So I wanted to give you that kind of feedback. :)
Mi, 11/05/2014 - 12:21
#40
I decided to go ahead and check it out despite not actually active (Thanks for the messages by the way guys) and it looks nice aside from as Bopp has said: It looks... badly squished and is somewhat confusing.
The Size of the Icons should either remain consistent or be outright removed. The other problem is that the Defense Numbers shouldn't be there, although there is data on the subject you run into the problem that there's no visible numbers that is shown in the game. What if Ancient Plate doesn't actually have 141 Defense but rather 141, 142, or even 143? (It's also obsolete) There's absolutely no way of telling. I believe the old table is personally better right now but I do like a lot of what you've implemented (Checking up on statuses is a neat thing) but I still suggest text-based might be better in the end. Perhaps you can try mixing the two tables though so it lists the stats but you can still search based off of what status is which!
Mi, 11/05/2014 - 13:39
#41
@Glacies
The numbers are based on pixel counts, and we've decided to do 'em, even though as I stated in a previous comment, they could do a UI change that completely ruins it. But they didn't change the width with the UI update that came with sprites, and as Bopp said, it's been the same since forever, so we're going to try. That's why it's definitely 141, and definitely not 142, 143, etc. This only has value in a comparative system, and doesn't mean anything regarding actual combat - it's basically saying "this thing has more than that thing and that's good, but don't bother trying to calculate the damage you'll get per hit in a depth or whatever." I understand this could be confusing or misleading to users, and might try to replace the numbers with...scaled icons! D:<
Lots of people like the scaled icons, and those who don't can't seem to say why, other than that they "look bad." They're visual cues that function, and feedback on them has been really positive - just not in this thread for w/e reason, haha. If the cells were forced to be consistent, would that be better? I think so, and was planning on fixing that later.
Text-based results in a table that is very large. This I don't mind, but we're trying to keep the display within 800px.
Having the stats images in the table makes it horribly size-inconsistent :P. I tried it and it looked awful, hence the edit comment "fugly as a gorgo's face."
I can fix the squishing maybe, but it might line break the item names, we'll see.
Mi, 11/05/2014 - 18:44
#42
a;lkfhasdlkfhasdfjhk
Can it line break just a LIL bit I mean, it's making this really hard ;P
Regarding:
volcanic
salamander suit
and
Arcane Salamander
Suit
and probably a few others.
I mean look at the weaponinfo for volcanic salamander suit's page, it's horribly line-broken and I've never heard a complaint about that.
With my table, the name will just go into the second line, and because the icon permits a lot of vertical space, the vertical height of the cell isn't affected by a single linebreak. I honestly think it looks fine, but yeah, need feedback.
ignore the rest of the table for now, it's under construction, EXCEPT the cellsize - I got them all to be adorable squares! How does that feel regarding icon scaling?
EDIT: I think the table is really, really good now. Just have to add tooltip information to the various defense icons - this info is so easy, has at-a-glance efficiency for veterans, has clear patterns of defenses/star level/bonuses=stat sacrifices sometimes and so on. It's not too hard for future editors to do (counting pixels sounds horrid, and I don't like that I even thought of it) either, cause there's nothing weird in the plug-n-chug part of the code.
Please.Love.It. Or I won't bake anyone cookies.
I'll add in several more armors to let feedbackers get an even better feel for how the table would look if it ever goes live in this format.
Btw, I've got it so that the biggest representative icon (MAX status/bonus, full stat bars, etc.) is 33px. So things should be even more obvious now. I had defense/status/bonus max icon sizes different before due to the earlier confuzzlement with defense bars vs. stats bars.
EDIT: Added in tooltips for defense columns.
EDIT: added more armors for fun.
EDIT: added a nice, informative (thumb) image containing useful links.
EDIT: thinking about uploading custom Attack Speed icons - same hourglass thing, just with up/down arrows like the buff/debuff icons have.
EDIT: yeah having a really easy (and fun) time just plugging in random armors for now. Anyone care to have a go at it? Just plug-n-chug! I don't think I've missed any abilities...if we use this, and populate the table, and something is missing, it will be very easy to add, so no worries about that. Feedback on how adding things in feels? As editors?
EDIT: and if the table is still just not right (I think it is :((((((((((((((((((((((( ) then I'll just give up on the 800px limit and make a table that I think would work with text. But I really don't wanna D:
Mi, 11/05/2014 - 19:09
#43
looks pretty good
It looks pretty good. I'm not sure that the varying icon sizes will be popular, but I still don't have a better idea.
Once you enter every 2-, 3-, 4-, and 5-star armor into this table, the table will be extremely long. Do players really want side-by-side comparisons of 2-star and 5-star armors? I don't think so. Maybe each star-level should have its own table. Then you could also get rid of the star column.
Do, 11/06/2014 - 19:17
#44
@Bopp
I've got it so most columns will stack all the 5* gear next to each other when sorted. Does it not do that for you?
EDIT: hmm, I'll separate them later and see how it feels. Would let us get rid of that star column...
Do, 11/06/2014 - 16:00
#45
Well Then...
Got inspired by feedback and populated the list...think I got everything, do check me for errors.
Now we can know how it will feel long-run!
The list is mostly ordered (by default) via Date of Release, Alphabetical, and Alchemy line, with DoR having highest priority, and Alchemy Line second. This way, new items can just be added in at the bottom of the page as they're released into the game, and series is at least still hinted at, but not overly emphasized.
Added a bottom list for the spiral starter and groundbreaker armor items. I figure these don't really belong in the main comparative list.
If this table feels good enough at last, I'll do the same thing for helmets, a pretty similar thing for shields, and rather similar things for bombs/handguns/swords. :D
And then trinkets.
Working on rudimentary tables for other gear types. Feedback on what columns we want is desired.
Do, 11/06/2014 - 21:46
#46
Thoughts on Armor (I'll comment on others later)
ICONS
Good idea! Using the size of the icons to differentiate is a smart idea. But I do agree with Bopp that they may not go over well--how about these ideas to make them even MORE visual:
1. I have a high-res screen. All of the icons look pretty close in size (ie: they're all tiny to me). Could we use larger/smaller icons--from FILL THE BOX to tiny dot? Or could we use all of the same size icon but add a number overlaid on it (red shield with a white 9 for the "Normal Defense 9th Segment")?
2. The + and - icons look similar. Visually scanning the list (without sorting) they kind of blur together. Could we do something else to differentiate like change the - cell's background color to slightly darker? Or use an icon with a thin red box line around the edge?
TABLES
I also agree with Bopp about breaking the stars into different tables. Either 6 different tables (0* to 5*) or three different tables (T1 T2 T3, which would be helpful for LD).
Removing a column = less horizontal real estate = win.
STATUS SORTING
Sort by Curse. It goes -1 -2 -3 -4 ....long space... +1 +2 +3 +4.
Can it go -4 -3 -2 -1 +1 +2 +3 +4 ...long space to the end. ?
MY BIG PROBLEM - SORTING BY DEFENSE
Those first three are just tweaks. My BIG problem: if I sort by the 2nd Defense Column and look for the Elemental armors? Divine & Dragon don't get sorted in order. >_<
With all the dual-type gear in the game...
I don't know how this would be resolved without adding an additional two columns, which is even wider. :/
--Cheshireccat
Do, 11/06/2014 - 23:45
#47
@Cheshirecat
Yeah, most of those are totally doable. I actually used the +/- because the arrows (defense increased/decreased) seemed blurry to me in high quantities. Even more distinction is completely fine. I'll come up with a few things after my exam tomorrow - the border will be annoying with the scaling, doable, but annoying. I'm thinking more like an X behind the "-" circle, or simply changing the border of the circles to blue (+) and pink (-) like the buff/debuff icons do. But a shape change would be the most obvious. *whispers something about tubulin* what? that stuff is creepy.
Making the icons too big could make it a bit ugly. A different issue, yes. I have a few ideas for this in my head, and none of them are exactly efficient. Have to give it more brain-time later.
The +/- resistance icons - yeah, bigbig, totally easy to change. I was thinking it would always have "less weak to curse at top with actual resistance being most toply" but having consistent big-small patterns would be better than assuming this sort of...logic...thing.
But not right now, I have so much information in my head for a cellular exam I feel like I'm gonna explode. Sarcomere. Cytoplasmic Dynein. Cdc6 and Cdt1. CDK. filamin. Fimbrin. oh god make it stop.
This weekend I'll have so much time, I might throw a wiki party.
Except I won't.
For those wondering, no, I do not sleep. Gib zee core plx.
Thanks for feedback!
Fr, 11/07/2014 - 12:26
#48
@Nova @Bopp
NEW ICONS
I think I like my "use all of the same size icon but add a number overlaid on it (red shield with a white 9 for the 'Normal Defense 9th Segment')" suggestion the best. It combines colors AND numbers in a form that is easy to absorb at a glance, especially when visually scanning or sorting the list.
You could apply this to the other bonuses as well--ASI Med gets a "2", Fiend Bonus Low gets a "1", etc.
This would negate the need for various icon sizes. I think it's a much clearer indicator.
Hmm... this might also negate the need for multiple tables broken up by star. What do you think, Bopp?
NEGATIVE BONUSES
Box, background, X, colors, whatever. It should all work as long as it's obvious. Whatever you want to mock up. :)
--Chesh
PS: FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS FROSTING COVERED, GO GET SOME SLEEP!
PPS: Remember: no rogaine.
PPPS: Good luck! :)
PPPPS: Hab no zee core sry :( Will gib rspct & gd advce nstd. Hifives!
Fr, 11/07/2014 - 12:37
#49
Example
Maybe something like this.
Shows the centered and the offset example for numbers. Also shows a red bordered icon for a penalty status. We would also add numbers to the + and - icons.
Note: I did embiggen the icons a bit 'cause I thought it made the table look better. Not sure if we can do that for real or not.
I think this format is very clear and easy to understand. Thoughts?
--Cheshireccat
Fr, 11/07/2014 - 12:37
#50
looks good
I do favor overlaid text instead of scaling the icons. For penalties I favor negative numerals, such as "-2" on Fallen. The "-2" could also be made red or purple, as extra warning. The text should be a bit smaller than in Cheshireccat's mockup, so that we can easily see the icon behind it.
But this plan would require making a lot of new icons, right? And maybe that's too much to ask of Novaster.
Novaster, in case you're getting tired or discouraged: These pages are going to end up pretty great. :)
The wiki page that I use most is this:
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/User:Jdavis/5-Star_Items
It contains all important information about all 5-star items, in an easily sortable format. A year or so ago I proposed such a thing in Wiki Editors, and there was no interest from the other editors. So I made it in my own namespace, for my own use.
Are you looking to build something similar? Feel free to rip off my wiki code if it helps any.