Spiral Knights - If there wasn't shield-cancelling

If there wasn't shield-cancelling

10 replies [Last post]

Sun, 11/09/2014 - 12:37

Fe-Tarkus

Flourishes wouldn't be OP, as the 1st strike has roughly the same cooldown as the 3rd strike, and the 2nd strike has the shortest cooldown
Cutters would be useful because they have fast attack cooldowns
Difficulty increased due to having less opportunities to attack without getting hit
Less gun & sword chargespam as it's more dangerous
Bombs are more useful as they're a safer option
LD balance(strikers and alchemers are less spammy) >> better framerates
SK becomes less of a trigger finger/input spam game

The game wouldn't necessarily become more casual, but actions will be more tactical, thought out, and slower paced.

I played T1/2 without a shield to get a feel for using weapons without shield-cancelling(I habitually shield-cancel as many animations as I can, so it's easier to just play T1/2 without a shield instead of trying not to shield-cancel in T3).

Of course if there wasn't shield-cancelling, weapons like Winmillion and Troika would need some sort of boost as they'd be extra-disadvantaged by this change(mediocre damage and long animation times).

I'm not advocating for the complete removal of shield-cancelling, just hypotheticals.

Sun, 11/09/2014 - 12:54

Krakob

SK becomes less of a trigger finger/input spam game
This is entirely wrong. Without shield cancelling, the game would (at least for swords) largely just be about being able to interrupt/knockback as much as possible because there'd be no other good ways of dodging for most swords. Currently, swordsmanship is a lot about technique and timing. Without shield cancelling, several techniques would be impossible to use and timing would become less relevant. In the end, I don't think this would make swordsmanship anything but a matter of clicking as fast as possible.

Sun, 11/09/2014 - 13:51

Bopp

Is this about Lockdown?

Is this thread specifically about Lockdown? Flourishes aren't overpowered in PvE at all (especially since the length was stealth-nerfed).

Shields are one of my favorite aspects of this game's design. Shield bumping, canceling, bashing, etc. are useful but not immediately obvious to the novice player. Anything that makes the game slightly more interesting and skill-demanding is good.

Mon, 11/10/2014 - 18:24

Fe-Tarkus

@Krakob
Swordsmanship would have a great emphasis on timing without shield-cancelling. The player has to know when to engage so that they don't get hit back in their cooldown animation. I do agree that swordsmanship would become less about technique. But, I am not sure how it becomes more of a trigger finger/input spam game. Some players may mash the attack key, but that's a matter of player preference whether or not to destroy their mouse/keyboard. I guess what I'm saying is there'd be less meaningful input spam that actually does stuff instead of input spam while waiting to start an action as quickly as possible(as speedrunners do).

@Bopp
I initially thought about this when I decided to go shieldless on a whim in PvE, but my thoughts on this switched over to LD because of the prominence of shield-cancelling in LD. Anyways, you bet flourishes are overpowered for PvE and PvP with shield-cancelling. With shield-cancelling you can spam the sweeping 1st strike instead of having to deal with the short and narrow 2nd strike. If there wasn't shield-cancelling, the player would be encouraged to either slash & hold and wait out the cooldown, or continue for the 2nd strike which has a shorter cooldown than the 1st strike. It isn't dangerous to take down a Mecha Knight with a Flourish due to 1st strike spam. If I didn't have the safety of shield-cancelling, I would have a difficult time killing a Mecha Knight with a Flourish because of how vulnerable I'd be.

My argument is that shield-cancelling makes the game less interesting. It makes it so that players can more recklessly throw out attacks(benefiting swords and guns leaving bombs in the dust). It removes a lot of the danger that a player would experience from cooldown animations. Brute force attack spam is very viable and mindgames and tactics are much less important and prominent in the game.

Tue, 11/11/2014 - 07:19

Turn-Me-On

Since you are referring to

Since you are referring to lockdown:

Shield cancelling makes you think quicker. You have to read enemy movements better and predict what they will do next.

Without shield cancelling, everything is slowed down. Games would be all about who can combo better.

I personally like the quick pace of LD. Requires on the spot decisions that determine if you suck or not. If you want a slow tactical game, go play chess.

Tue, 11/11/2014 - 07:52

Smalltownguy

chess?

(@Octaslash: We live in a strange time. Most chess these days is either 10-seconds per move or 5-minutes per game speed chess. On the spot decisions in abundance. And it's amazing what a grandmaster can do to you in only 10 seconds.)

This Apple mouse won't do shield canceling. I can't click the left button if I'm holding down the right button.

Tue, 11/11/2014 - 12:10

Krakob

Swordsmanship would have a great emphasis on timing without shield-cancelling. The player has to know when to engage so that they don't get hit back in their cooldown animation.
There's a major difference between timing and choosing when to engage an enemy. The former is the difference between slamming a button at one point or doing it ½ second later so that you can, say, prevent doing a shield bump or timing the reset of a cooldown properl, while engaging an enemy is a matter of choosing to approach them in order to make an attack. You are correct in saying that you'd have to be more selective in terms of engaging enemies, but once you'd have engaged your enemy and the first attack has been made, your enemy would surely have started its attack animation and you'd have to choose either doing a combo to interrupt/knockback or intentionally taking a hit without any form of gain.

Tue, 11/11/2014 - 22:39

Turn-Me-On

@Smalltownguy Thats why you

@Smalltownguy

Thats why you take your Apple crap mouse and run over it repeatedly with a semi

Then buy a $15 logitech mouse, which mas more buttons, looks cooler, has higher and adjustable dpi, laser mouse, more comfortable. For 1/4 the cost of apple crap!

Too bad i cant replace my apple craptop yet, but the mouse was easy.

Wed, 11/12/2014 - 12:36

Holy-Nightmare

@ Smalltownguy

I use the standard keyboard controls BUT I customize the defense key so that it activates with the X button.

Note: I'm left handed so you may want to try some other keys for a defense button (I'm not sure how a right handed person can use this setup)

Wed, 11/12/2014 - 19:42

Smalltownguy

@Nightmare

Thanks! I'm right handed, but I'll try playing with key assignments.

I may have a PC mouse or two lying around here somewhere. I just have so many Apple mice (boxes of them) that even my Linux laptop has an Apple mouse.

Wed, 11/12/2014 - 23:13

#10

Fe-Tarkus

@Octaslash
Think quicker, think dumber. All the players do in LD is get in range and hit the enemy, or dodge/wait for shield ability, and use guns for bombers. It's a singular, boring tactic.

It's not about who can combo better. That's only for sword vs sword combat, but there's guns and bombs in the game too.

Basically all you can do alone in LD other than following the meta, is guerrilla tactics. If shield-cancelling was gone, bombing would be less punishable, 2-shot guns would be significantly less spammable, Flourish would be quite nerfed. The game becomes more like rock, paper, scissors instead of using my rock or scissors to beat everything else up and paper doesn't do much.

@Krakob
I was talking about timing of engaging, not about the timing of input.
I see. If shield-cancelling were to be removed, LD swordplay would become much less about the actual engagement (as it'd mainly be spamming attack combos). Something like dashing would have to be modified to become a control over one's attacks as shield-cancelling currently is.

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If there wasn't shield-cancelling