Spiral Knights - Regarding the Spiral Knights economy

Regarding the Spiral Knights economy

21 replies [Last post]

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:06

Valivarre

Legacy Username

Sega-RON has united forces with the three evil rings, to destroy you!

Sadly, the pendulum has swung, and its momentum will ruin you.

I wanted to find out how long it will take a nub, fresh out of the cannister to get to full *5 gear. IE. Armor, Helm, Shield +1 Weapon. This nub fresh from the cannister can not buy CE, but can only operate on ME. For this analysis we will assume that the nub has access to all necessary mats for free

*2 recipes cost 1400 cr and 50 CE.
*3 recipes cost 5000 cr and 200 CE
*4 recipes cost 12500 cr and 400 CE
*5 recipes cost 30000 cr and 800 CE
For simplicity, I am going to convert the CE to a CR value at the today's exchange rate of 100 CE - 6500 CR

The results are as follows.
*2=3650
*3=18k CR
*4= 38.5k CR
*5= 82kCR

So to transfer from t1-t2 costs this nub-cake 14600 (this was the hardest info to get newbs are freaking stupid especially when you offer them 20 ce to answer a few questions) From the nubcakes I questioned they seem to generate 2k cr per t1 run. So 8 days to get into full t2 equipment.

*2-*3 (we will assume that he is now Jelly capable and this nub never requires eng revival. Gets matched with amazing groups for jelly king)
It will cost him 72000 Cr. For ease of this discussion I made each full jelly run 100CE. The nub gains 7k CR. It costs him 6500 CR to buy 100 CE to keep playing earning him profit of 500 CR. It will take this nub 144 jelly runs to become *3. Each run lasts about 1 hour so it will take him 144 hours of game play to get into *3.

*3-*4 154k CR Same as before in regards to income with Jelly Run. 500 cr profit resulting in 302 jelly runs

*4-*5 328k CR to get into 5 star gear. Same as before with jelly runs. 656 jelly runs.

(edited to show stars)

So in total.
*2 gear costs 12 days of work (12 days of 1 hour playing days)
*3 gear costs 144 hours of jelly king
*4 gear costs 302 hours of jelly king
*5 gear costs 656 hours of jelly king.

12 1 hour days for t2 gear
and then to get to t5 gear will be 45 straight days of playing

REjoice people of middle earth. Sega-RON and the Three rings who wish to rule you all, love you. They also want you to do mindless things for 1092 hours of your life. Just so you can play the game to the end.

Lets wait for a response from the DEVS.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:14

Thoranhippo

Well it will be moved again

Well it will be moved again then. Anyway that's where that kind of silly threads belong right?

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:16

Valivarre

Legacy Username

What are your thoughts on my

What are your thoughts on my math?

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:19

Dirt

Legacy Username

That makes me happy,

That makes me happy, actually. Makes my gear a little more special. Thanks for improving my day.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:19

mintoc

Legacy Username

Even if i think just like you

Even if i think just like you about this problem, i gotta tell ur calcs are too approximative.

1 JK run costs 80 ce not 100 which makes 1 run earn you : 7k - 0,8*6,3k = 1,96k

This calc is assuming he isn't in a guild and has no friends because if he does he can
win much more while joining friends at/after the terminal. In which case h'll earn much more.

there's a hughe difference between 1,96k and 0,5k....

and if u get 1 or 2 arena's you'll get like 8k-9k of 1 run not 7k

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:24

Splinter

"HAHAHAH previous topic moved

"HAHAHAH previous topic moved to graveyard. So I will just post it again"

And this wont be moved as well...why?

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:36

Senshi

Legacy Username

Bad.

What are your thoughts on my math?

Your math is sloppy, rounds things in the direction that supports your notion that things are horrible for beginners, and neglects all sorts of factors. You generously give the theoretical newbie the materials he needs... but if you properly account for materials and tokens collected and sold at the auction house, the theoretical newbie is going to be way ahead of where you put him. Plus the theoretical newbie can get all his 2* equipment at 2000 crowns each without spending any energy (though he may have to compromise on which line.)

Also your math is somewhat hard to follow because you conflate star levels and tiers. (Oh, wait, you fixed that. Better!)

I also think reposting things that have been moved to the graveyard is a good way to earn a forum ban.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:32

Trouser

Even taking your assumptions

Even taking your assumptions about energy costs and payouts at face value, let's consider what would happen if this player instead played on mist, earning 7000cr in one 100 mist run a day instead of playing continuously on CE for 500cr profit per 100CE. That's 14 times the profit per run, meaning they will be fully decked in 1/14th the play time, or 78 hours instead of 1092.

And that's assuming they can't find more profit from selling materials and recipes.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:41

Volebamus

Wow, I think you just

Wow, I think you just destroyed his entire post in a few sentences.

I worked the math over myself, and while I didn't make the same assumptions as you did, using the logic of using 100 ME a day to get 7k cr to make 5 x 5* equips got around 101 hours. This is using the Crown costs that OP stated in his first post.

That's basically 3 and a half months, with just 1 hour a day. Wow, for an endgame, that's relatively quick compared to other online RPGs.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:43

Syor

Legacy Username

I'm

just waiting for this to be moved to graveyard again~

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:47

#10

Volebamus

I'd rather not >_> I'm

I'd rather not >_>

I'm genuinely curious as to what Valivarre will reply with after what Trouserman said.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:52

#11

Gigafreak

Legacy Username

You can buy into 2* for 2-3k

You can buy into 2* for 2-3k crowns apiece via the auction house, bypassing the recipe cost and even part of the energy cost.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 13:00

#12

itinerant

Legacy Username

For reals.

I bought a low CTR calibur for 3k yesterday.

You could have full 2* gear (two or three weapons, armor, helm and shield) in any line if you purchased the $2.45 package instead of going out to eat. (Ask your mom or dad!) That's even making your own stuff, purchasing the recipes. So, you could have full 2* gear without setting foot in the clockworks and be able to access two-thirds of the game. You're not ready for FSC anyway, newbie!

I remember selling CE for 2500 crowns a pop when I first started playing. If I'd been getting 6k crowns a pop, I'd have been up and running a lot faster. That was when iron gears were 1k too...

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 13:21

#13

Eurydice

Community Manager

Valivarre, even though you

Valivarre, even though you broke the forum rules by reposting a sunk thread, I'm leaving this one up because other people are engaging in serious discussion here.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 13:45

#14

Valivarre

Legacy Username

Trouser

Please note I awas using about 500 cr profit for calculations.

Since everyone is pointing out I am not including cost of tokens I will include that in these new calculations also I will change the cost of each jelly run into 80 ce vs 100 ce

A Jelly helm sells for 3500 and costs 15 gems. Each jelly gem is worth 233 crown. At the time I created this thread ce was 6500 cr. So 7000 -(6500cr *.8)= 1300 cr. So total profit for a single jelly run is somewhere in between 1999(3 tokens) and 2465(5 tokens).

Once a nubcake achieves full jelly ability he can play as much as he wants for as long as he wants. So long as energy does not go higher than 9k cr.
Here are the updated numbers
'*3=72k CR
36-29 runs.
*4= 154kCR
77-62
*5= 328kCR
164-133 runs

So it will take a nubcake somewhere between
277 runs and 224 runs to get 4 5* items. (please note this does not include the benefit of selling off Minerals)(this is also assuming that he is completely perfect in his runs)

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 13:47

#15

itinerant

Legacy Username

Pwned.

Words cannot describe the joy I experience in seeing sensible people rally against all this economical angst. I will admit that the LotR reference was clever. I think your 'dev response' has been given.

I ran most of the content besides FSC in 4* or less gear. I know I solo'd to the core without 5* armor, helm or shield. (Pretty sure I had a Leviathan at that point.) And having full 5* gear doesn't get you through FSC anyway; I know because I'm running decent gear and am just starting to get a handle on the place. It's frustrating, but my friend and I are trying the different paths and discovering which sprites are hardest to rescue. Our second run went much better than the first. And even though it is frustrating, it is exciting. Learning the enemies combat patterns, et cetera...

Technical skills are way more important than gear. The gear can be vital in certain strata, but just being able to avoid damage and work in a team will always be more important. This game is SUPPOSED to be hard mode. It's not a secret.

Maybe it just comes down to values. Some people just want to be instantly gratified, which is fine. But there is a price associated with that sort of gratification. There is immense worth in obtaining something for which you worked very hard.

This all supposes that the new player subscribes to the endless grind. My friend that runs FSC with me purchased a piece of gear (UV) at 50k crowns. He sold it last night for 190k. Sure, it takes money to make money, but a person who engages and is learning the game isn't stuck just working 'minimum wage'.

Who wants to farm the Jelly Palace forever, anyway?

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 13:53

#16

Valivarre

Legacy Username

Itinerant

Your friend who who made the 140k profit is rare. You can't bank on the odd amazing score.

Farmng Jelly used to make the most sense. It gained you decent profit and was easy to do. Running FSC requires honestly a good group of people that know their business. All it takes is one person to muck up an FSC.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 14:04

#17

Trouser

In summary

Player A: I can grind and grind to get to a certain goal in 1092 hours.

Player B: By playing moderately, you can earn more per hour you spend and get to the same goal in 78 hours.

Player A: My estimate of the cost per run was too high. I can actually grind and grind to get to the goal in 277 hours.

Player B: Okay... Have fun grinding?

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 14:09

#18

Madadder

http://forums.spiralknights.c

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/1413

fourth bullet under DO NOT:

Re-create threads that have been Graveyarded, locked, or unpublished.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 15:13

#19

Thoranhippo

"The nub gains 7k CR. It

"The nub gains 7k CR. It costs him 6500 CR to buy 100 CE to keep playing earning him profit of 500 CR. It will take this nub 144 jelly runs to become *3"
Each player earns over 100ME (mist energy) a day; therefore anybody can in the first place, and daily make profits, without investing any crowns. Afterwards, if the concerned player wants to increase his wage, slowly but surely, he can choose to buy energy from the market (considering he plays for free) and make more benefits. In any case, as long as he successes he's run, according to your scheme, Valivarre, he'll make: 7k+(additional runs)*500cr.
Also, minorate this of 30%. You consider a JK run is 100CE. A profitable JK run performed by a cautious player will only cost him 70CE (then again, that's 30%, which is extremely far to be neglectable)-and so that you don't get mistaken, 70CE=Depth 9->10->11->12->14->15->16 (what kind of noob would try JK knowing he's short on budget AND vulnerable?).
Now if you don't mind, let's retry calculating our dear "nub"'s benefits:
7k+(additional runs)*500cr+(amount of runs)*30*(average CE price ~65 cr); let's just admit our nub is on weekend, rainy weekend, and that he's made 3 runs, one on his mist, 2 on respectingly 200CE purchased at the market. He'll have made 8000 PURE crowns, and will have 90CE left, which roughly corresponds to 6k crowns, that he could either keep for crafting later, or re-invest straightly into another JK run. I'm not even taking account on materials; some happen to be worthy. Do you really find the fellah is this poor?
Afterwards, when a player doesn't manage smartly his energy, knowing he disposes of limited amounts, he's the only one to blame. In F2P games, good players learn to extract maximum benefits over what they dispose of. Think of it.
Here's another formula to workout benefits of a player who would again and again spend his leftover energy from this 30% margin; just for the pleasure:
7k+(additional runs)*500cr+((amount of runs)*30)/70)*7k.

Explanations for the confused:
7k: roughly estimated overall pure crowns obtained during a well managed JK run
Additional runs: the amount of runs the player decides to make APART from the ones he could afford using his free mist energy
Amount of runs: same as above, including the run made using free mist energy
((amount of runs)*30)/70): One run=70CE, implying over 100CE bought from the market/obtained in ME, 30CE will be left after one JK run. Multiplied by the amount of runs, gives you the total amount of leftover CE from the player's runs. Divided by 70, gives you the amount of additional runs the player can make using the left over CE from the previous runs. Multipled by 7k, gives you the overall benefit that can be obtained using the leftover CE for a JK run. For the maths addicts, let n be the total amount of runs. That gives you this formula (try and draw the sketch of it on a calculator if you've ran out of energy for today):
f(n)=7000+500(n-1)+(30n/70)*7000=500n-500+7000+3000n=3500n+6500 crowns.
I hate maths.

That gives you the very average amount of money one can make doing those JK runs repeateadly, until he/she obtains proper equipments.
PS: Personally, a JK run provides me an average of 8k crowns. But you probably got enough above to deal with already.

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 14:18

#20

itinerant

Legacy Username

I appreciate your reasonable response.

I will concede that it is unusual, but I have done something similar as well. (Paid 50k for weapon, then waited and sold it for 135k profit after the AH fees...) Granted, this isn't our first MMO.

Surely, the game can be quite the grind without paying any cash. I think that is very clear. It will be a very long road if you decide to never put down any money. I've crunched the numbers on that starter pack, tho'. It's actually as good a value as the 50.00 energy purchase. By value, I mean dollar per 400 energy.

I will confess that I would never have been patient enough to grind through without putting down some real cash. But it is also a rare thing to be able to financially support a game I love with a small, dedicated team of developers. It wouldn't be appropriate to disclose how much I've spent on this game, but I don't have any regrets. I am also a person who does not have many other hobbies, to be honest. (I limit myself to a few at any given time.)

I think your argument carries weight, even if the math worked out to 100 Jelly Runs. I just don't understand why everyone expects to be able to ratchet through all the content for free. We don't operate in a vacuum, either. When I found out about this game, I invited several of my friends to play and we all cooperate and help each other. Right now, we are talking about going in on a large energy purchase together.

Maybe synergy is the answer and not just energy. :)

Tue, 06/07/2011 - 17:05

#21

Valivarre

Legacy Username

Starter Pack

I give up. Im so sick of the crap that Sega-ron and "his" minions the three rings do. Im endgame, the nubcakes can go dig dirt instead of enjoying things.

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Regarding the Spiral Knights economy