Spiral Knights - Add Stun and Curse-themed strata

Add Stun and Curse-themed strata

12 replies [Last post]

Mon, 12/22/2014 - 16:45

Jessecho

If these get added, not only will it add more difficulty to the game, it will also give more variety to the Clockworks rather than the same Fire, Freeze, Poison and Shock stages, and it will increase the randomness factor in the Arcade, making it more like the sandbox experience OOO strives to turn it into.

In Stun strata, enemies are larger. Nearly every slow-moving enemy can Stun you and some variants of faster enemies can stun you as well. To keep things from getting too annoying, the Stun effect is changed so that if you get hit with a Stun attack, and then if you get hit with another one while you're still Stunned, it doesn't extend your Stun time. The atmosphere is changed to one of ruin and more yellows are used.

In Curse strata, some enemies have attacks that can Curse you. New to the game is the Curse Symbol, a floor hazard which, similar to the existing Fire, Freeze and Poison vents and the Shock panel, will Curse you if you walk over it at the wrong time. It glows when in an active state. The slower enemies like Lumbers and stationary ones like Gun Puppies tend to be the ones who cause Curses. While outside these levels, Curses last upwards of 30 seconds, Curses in these strata will last, at most, 20-25 seconds even in the sixth stratum.

EDIT LOG

Edit: Changed stratum aspects due to flaws pointed out by Almond-Riddle.

Edit 2: Changed Stun and Curse stratum aspects due to critique by Supnaplamqw.
Edit 2.5: For some reason my edits on Stun either didn't show up or mysteriously disappeared. My bad.

Edit 3: Removed Sleep strata completely from the idea. See Almond-Riddle's second comment and my reply to it to understand why.

Mon, 12/22/2014 - 18:33

Almond-Riddle

Every single one of those

Every single one of those statuses weren't added in for a reason. Namely, they all shut you down. Adding a stun, curse, or sleep won't just add a level of difficulty, it will add levels that literally cannot be beat.

You also don't seem to understand what sleep does. It renders your knight IMMOVABLE. Not just immobile like freeze, you can't do anything. You can't even GUARD. Even worse, getting attacked will NOT wake you up. So a single attack that puts you to sleep is, quite literally, instant death.

Stun has a similar problem. If fast moving enemies that come in droves like Devilites, Minis or Kats could stun you, they could keep you in a state of permanent stun until you die.

Curse is less problematic than the other two, but is a lot more annoying. Unlike most statuses that only last 15 seconds tops, curse goes into a huge 30 seconds, even for minor curse. So letting your character get cursed once will turn the stage into an agonizingly long game of tag until you can attack again.

This won't make difficult levels. They'll make stupid levels. It'll be like an entire gate filled compound levels.

Mon, 12/22/2014 - 18:51

Vohtarak-Forum

I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

almond riddle shut this idea down faster than those statuses would
heheh

Mon, 12/22/2014 - 18:58

Jessecho

Almond-Riddle

Solution to the Sleep issue: Only certain, rare variants of enemies induce Sleep, and the ones that do only cause you to stay asleep for 5 or 6 seconds at the very possible most, AND Sleep's duration cannot be extended while you're affected by it if you get hit with another Sleep attack.

Solution to the Stun issue: Only certain variants of fast enemies and all slower enemies can cause Stun attacks. Alternate solution: Most enemies can stil cause Stuns, but they only last a few seconds. Alternate solution 2: Stuns can't be extended with another Stun attack while you're in a Stunned state. Also, you seem to not realize that if you get stunned, you can still block, so enemies won't get the chance to Stun again.

Solution to the Curse issue: The Curses induced in Curse stratums only last 20 seconds at most.

With these changes, these levels would be hard, but not annoyingly hard nor impossible. If OOO can't possibly implement these three as stratums, then just have them be a danger mission or something.

Oh, and I'm inclined to think that either OOO planned on making these as stratum themes at some point or they are in development now, as shown by this old picture when Gate Construction was still around:

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/_Duke_/media/Example03.jpg.html

Mon, 12/22/2014 - 20:14

Supnaplamqw

Oh Hell No

Curse is just annoying,it only works w/ a very small number of enemies no matter how you look at it.
Also,you seem to be underestimating the power of stun.blocking alone won't save you in a whole stratum.
And no.Just no sleep

I don't mind if they're more present in the clockworks,but not THAT much more present.

Mon, 12/22/2014 - 20:23

Jessecho

Supnaplamqw

Curse solution: Only have a few enemies in the Curse stratums cause Curses then and just have Curse floor hazards be more numerous so the status effect is still prevalent in the stratum.

Stun solution: Change it so getting hit with another Stun while you're already in a Stunned state doesn't extend how long you stay Stunned.

Sleep solution: Er... I could provide one if you would tell me what exact problem you have with it.

Mon, 12/22/2014 - 22:21

Xxpapaya

The papaya frowns

"Solution to the Curse issue: The Curses induced in Curse stratums only last 20 seconds at most.
But since it's a Curse stratum, the status will be constantly renewed...There's a reason why barely anything *glares at Gran Faust* inflicts the status.

Personally, I find Stun 100000x more annoying than Freeze. When you are Frozen (hehe) at least you can still attack without any problem (regarding the enemy is standing right in front of you), but when you are stunned, you are, quite literally, a sitting duck. Well, a stumbling duck, but a duck no less.

Sleep is just "no" on so many levels. Yes, it heals you, but what's 1 heart per 5 seconds compared to the damage that those mobs are dishing out?

Mon, 12/22/2014 - 23:02

Jessecho

Xpapaya

About Curse: As you can see, I edited the Curse section so that it says most enemies in the Curse stratums don't actually induce a Curse effect. The real danger comes from the Curse Symbols, aka Curse-themed floor hazards, which are all over the place in these stratums, so you have to be careful to survive.

About Stun: Just means you have to be more careful and know when to block so you avoid getting Stunned. If it makes you happy I changed the Stun section so that in Stun stratums, you won't get extra Stun time if you get hit with another Stun attack while already Stunned.

About Sleep: That's why I changed the Sleep section so that the longest you can stay asleep on even the sixth stratum is ten seconds.

As you can tell I am open to criticisms and suggestions on how to make these less cheap and more fun.

Mon, 12/22/2014 - 23:11

Almond-Riddle

I hate being the shut-downer

Righty-o

First of all, most of you idea (not prolonging status timers) is a major drag to code into the existing mechanics. So it's unrealistic.

Secondly. No. You seem to forget something, even if you can still shied during stun, the ANIMATION OF YOU RAISING THE SHIELD IS SLOWED DOWN. Like Supnap said, I think that you are severely underestimating stun. If you've ever been to Firestorm Citadel before, you'll understand why you should fear stun. Just having 2 enemies capable of doing stun in one room can be dangerous if you get hit even once.

Also, Curse Hazards? Are you sadistic? Holy frick nope. You seem to forget that being cursed doesn't allow you to USE CAPSULES 50% of the time. You also can't shield bash either. Getting cursed is a huge problem unless you're in an empty room without enemies. That's why Graveyards are big and open for the player to run around, so that they can safely let the curse wear off before resuming their onslaught. Having curse in a clockworks tunnel stage, with hazards, is just asking for trouble.

That being said, I'm not entirely against a curse stage. But putting them in the clockworks would be plain evil. At best they'd only work as a Prestige mission.

Sleep. No. This just can't happen. Sleep actually WAS part of the clockworks before, a long time ago. But OOO removed it. Do you know why? Because even they realized how unfair and unbalanced the status was. Also, you're proposed fix was a 6 second long duration.

Right... I'm trying to keep in mind that you've never been to tier 3 before. So here's a heads up. Do you know how many attacks it takes for you to die in tier 3? Assuming you have 5* gear that are fully heated, but no vitapods and/or trinkets,

4 hits. That's how many you can take. Invinciframes last for half a second. So imagine if you were to fall asleep, have more than 2 enemies in the room with you and you're already dead.

There is a reason why Freeze Lumbers and Greavers. Any status that inhibits movement for even a second, even shock, can kill you within moments.

I'm not putting you down here, I'm just reminding you that you haven't experienced the whole game yet. Get to tier 3, beat Vana on elite, and then come back here. If you still think this is a good idea, I'll mail you a free 10k.

TL;DR: Stun, Curse, and sleep themed stages should not be implemented in the arcade. Curse theme is okay if it's in a prestige, or kept quarantined to graveyards.

Stun should not have a themed stage.

Sleep should not exist.

Tue, 12/23/2014 - 00:04

Jessecho

Almond-Riddle

About Stun: Okay, I take back what I say about being able to block Stuns. Still, as I've said, I've changed the idea so that not every enemy in Stun stratums cause Stuns. And this applies to the whole game, but as long as you're careful and are good at reading attack patterns, you should rarely get hit at all unless you have technical difficulties or just screw up..

About Curse: I know the effects of Curse full well. I also know that you can use Remedies to heal curse even if your Remedy Capsules are locked at the price of getting hurt. I came up with Curse Hazards as a substitute for enemies giving out Curses so that it wouldn't be so difficult and you'd have room to breathe, but I didn't realize that sticking them all over the place wouldn't leave much room for you to recover from your Curse. Curse Hazards could still be implemented but they would have to be few and be completely separated from any and all enemies.

About Sleep: Yeah, I understand that you can die fast in T3. No, I didn't think the Sleep stratum all the way through. I was aware of T3's difficulty, I just didn't take it into account when thinking up the Sleep stratum idea. In retrospect, the only way it can really work is if it's a Danger mission (even then it would probably be the hardest Danger mission in the game), OR if they added a feature into the Arcade where when you get to a subtown or terminal, you can choose to battle an alternate, more difficult stratum, i.e. Stun or Sleep themed strata, like the Shadow Lairs but on a smaller scale and you don't need a Shadow Key, but that's a completely different idea and it could be hard to implement.

I'll stand by the Stun and Curse strata, but the Sleep level was a bad idea.

And Sleep was a part of the Clockworks once? I can't find anything to back this up other than there were two enemies that once dealt Sleep status. Only evidence I could find was that picture I showed earlier suggesting that Stun, Sleep and Curse stratums would be released in the future (and also a ? enemy symbol but that's for another discussion).

Tue, 12/23/2014 - 00:49

#10

Xxpapaya

The papaya frowns

About Stun:
"as long as you're careful and are good at reading attack patterns, you should rarely get hit at all unless you have technical difficulties or just screw up.."
You can read the attack patterns of every single monster in the game, the problem is if you can react in time. Let's take Devilities as an example, we all know when they are going to throw a table, chair, snowball, or whatever it is they have in their hands. The problem is that it is ridiculously difficult to dodge them, due to the fact that the projectiles travel quite fast and there is usually more than one of them flying towards you.

Another example: Mecha Knights. Yeah, they are easy to pick off when they are in groups of 3 or less, but that's rarely the case. How exactly am I supposed to dodge ten thousand of those guys when I'm (very likely) stunned, and this doesn't just apply for this status, it applies for the other two. You will die a very quick death if you fall asleep when they are chasing you (I know you already abandoned the sleep stratum idea, but examples are nice), on the other hand, you will die a very slow and painful death when you are cursed and they are on your tail. "But Xxpapaya, if you get stunned/cursed/sleeped(?), then it's a clear sign of your incompetence at the game! It's easy, just avoid getting hit, and it will be no problem!" I'm a hundred percent sure that no one has managed to pass a status stratum in T3 - without running past/avoiding every single mob - without being inflicted by that particular status.

About Curse:I'm glad that you've realised the full potency of the Curse status (dum dum duuuum!), but isolating the Curse Hazards from "any and all enemies" is another problem within itself, namely the fact that it completely defeats the purpose of having the stratum at all. Hazards without mobs is like, a pit fall trap without concealment, in other words, it poses no threat whatsoever. The reason why other status stratums exist is that, while the statuses will hinder you a lot, they don't completely shut you down like your recommended ones do. Curse is less serious than Stun though, so I can (sort of) see it being implemented into a prestige mission, but definitely not into your typical arcade stratum.

Tue, 12/23/2014 - 01:12

#11

Jessecho

Xxpapaya

About Curse: I actually kind of thought the same thing. Oh well, guess it's better to just ax the Curse floor trap in general. My reasoning for isolating them from enemies was just to make it so if you got Cursed, you would have room to recover and not be limited to where you could stand because there were hazards everywhere, but that just defeats the whole purpose of having the trap. If it is away from mobs, it's pointless, and if it's near mobs, it makes the game cheap, so there's no point in even putting it in.

Tue, 12/23/2014 - 02:23

#12

Fehzor

Oh lord.

I really wish we could have a more civil discussion about these kinds of things, where everyone is informed and in agreement about certain aspects of the game. For instance- curse is a broken status (it either does nothing to you, or everything to you based on what your items are looking like... and strangely it has the same effect on enemies), but if something like this did come to pass it would only be natural for the developers to fix the status up a bit. The same obviously goes for sleep.

But that's really beyond the point. We aren't the acceptance committee, nor do we deserve to be. Rather, we are the whoever wants to discuss how to deal with curse, stun and sleep committee... and these are things worth discussing, because they have a relatively hard time fitting into the game right now and easily become over hyped due to how rare they are.

These status effects don't exist in isolation either. The concept of a curse stratum brings in to question the general design philosophy of the game. Currently, curse is only dealt by undead themed monsters- should this be changed to include the other families so as to fill normal areas with curse monsters, or should levels instead be designed around undead monsters inflicting the status? Interestingly, sleep status was only dealt by slooms, and really faces the same scenario. These are the things that warrant discussion, not whether the OP's arm can be bent into not having curse traps.

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What I personally would like to see would begin with a reform.

Curse = Not dependent on number of slots unlocked, strongest curse takes away all of your slots no matter what, weakest always leaves one open.

Sleep = Builds up. Sleep would begin with some time of "drowsiness", which would be akin to attack and movement speed decreases of low to med. Further sleep infliction would increase this amount and introduce a blurring effect, until the knight would doze off and sleep, turning their screen dark and letting the monsters murder them. To get this far in would take a large amount of sleep infliction, and should always be avoidable with good play.

Then curse and sleep levels would be added in parallel to one another, in lower T2 and all of T3. The obstacles would introduce a few new types of traps that deal with them, as making more vents 'n spikes wouldn't be very interesting. I would love to see a sort of field type trap- a hazy miasma that inflicts very very little of a status effect at a time, with level design that forces you through it. I would also like to see new enemy types0 made to cover the new statuses, especially something like a "gremlin mister", which would spray mist that dealt sleep or curse status all about.

All of this would of course have to be a larger update, and I'm sure that SEGA of Three Rings has bigger fish to fry at the moment- namely, their loopy plot and brave new weapon balance.

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Add Stun and Curse-themed strata