Spiral Knights - NPC Pages - dialogue content and general format

NPC Pages - dialogue content and general format

6 replies [Last post]

Fri, 01/02/2015 - 15:55

Dracora-Speaking

I've played a few MMOs, and one of the things that always bothered me about open world was the game's wiki's lack of "where the heck do I find and talk to that NPC? He has this one cool thing that I want just cause and I can't find his exclamation-quest-point on any map!"

Spiral Knights does not have this issue, but I want to completely blow away any possibility of this being an issue in the future :D. I also want to enrich the pages with dialogue. Something that could be tedious or a snap, keep reading. NPC Character pages need some attention anyway.

So I gave them some attention - standardized TOC sections and a show/hide template. Debating keeping mugshot or making an infobox.

The dialogue show/hides function like so:

The location of the NPC (some knights, like Feron, are in more than one place, so each dialogue would have a show/hide indicating where it can be triggered, thus also revealing this npc's location - convenient) is immediately revealed in the show/hide's title, no need to click anything. Any dialogue the knight has in that location is within that show/hide. I feel that location is the most important information about an NPC that anyone would want to know about, in SK or any other MMO. So that's why it's there, no hassle, easy to see.

Lengthy dialogue is within the show hide. Most players blow right through this sort of thing in-game and well, they miss it and might want to come back and read it and sometimes that's not possible (like if an event is no longer active). Other players just want to know about the knight in general and don't care what they have to say so we don't want huge bits of dialogue clogging up these pages. Most people...don't care!

I've also added a map indicating exactly where the NPC is, almost to the pixel. Something other MMOs should consider doing, but that's just my opinion. Again, SK doesn't have this issue because it is not open world with huge distances to walk and search for things, but I like being methodical. Oh yeah - opinion of my few strategic maps I've uploaded lateley? I've got some neutral/somewhat positive feedback from gamers so far, but as always I'd like some here too. In general the response is "yeah they're good. But I don't need em. I guess a new player would." Are they worth the work?

I'm in favor of using screenshots of the text speech bubbles. This reduces player error typing things in and general work time (I can crop and upload these speech bubbles in less than 30 seconds, but typing it out takes much longer, IDK about you). It also makes the wiki feel more like the game, and so player connections are better made and understanding/immersion is generally better. However, this is not typically done as images of text are generally silly and can take a while to update. I know one of Tenzhill's speech bubbles has a Developer's error in it currently. Amuse yourself, see if you can find it.

Ah yes. Who the hey is Tenzhill? This knight is the example page below. I noticed that nobody had noticed (or cared enough about) this NPC in the Grinchlin Assault lobby so I made a page:

Knight Tenzhill

There's a few small format differences between the main knight and the knight's associates' dialogue boxes. Compare them and give feedback please - images, or text? Should images have headers, or not? Should player response be text? Should the map be at the top or bottom? Should we admit that nobody cares about this at all and just let Novaster do it (lol)?

Other format stuff:
"associates" are generally faceless NPC knights that don't really get their own pages, but they still say things, so that's something.

TL;DR

I made character page formats, look at them, tell me what you think if y'all have time.

Fri, 01/02/2015 - 20:40

Bopp

that show/hide

I'm looking at Knight Tenzhill. You mentioned that "where is that NPC?" was one of your motivations/inspirations. So why hide this information in a show/hide? The page is not overly long. Just let the information live in the open.

Other than that, it looks good.

Edit: Screenshots of dialogue seem fine, if that's more efficient than typing.

Sat, 01/03/2015 - 09:08

Dracora-Speaking

@Bopp

Would you suggest an infobox for NPCs?

-mugshot
-occupation (vendor, knight, Lieutenant, informant, etc.)
-group (scarlet scout, recon ranger, geoknight, stranger, etc.)
-location (pic of map if applicable)

Then keep the dialogue in show/hide, with the (worded) locations where said dialogue(s) are triggered easily visible? If the NPC is in more than one spot, I'll simply say so in the infobox, and direct attention to the dialogue section. I'd still like to keep maps in the dialogue show/hide, leaning towards the top now (vs. bottom)

Sat, 01/03/2015 - 13:03

Bopp

infobox fine with me

An infobox seems like a fine idea. Probably every wiki page about a specific entity (as opposed to "Armor", for example) could have an infobox.

I don't think that the map needs to be in the infobox. It's too detailed of information, mainly because the player just wants to know whether he can reach the level where the NPC is (e.g. Arcade) or not (e.g. depth 29). After the player determines that, he can view a detailed map if he needs to. I don't think that the map is of primary importance, as befits an infobox. But I don't feel strongly about this issue.

You and I often disagree about show/hides. On long pages they serve a purpose, but only a weak one, of reducing scrolling and letting the reader focus on what's important to him. On short pages they serve no purpose, or even a negative purpose of "hiding" information from the user and requiring him to hunt for and click on a tiny target. I feel more strongly about this issue.

Sat, 01/03/2015 - 15:26

Dracora-Speaking

@Bopp

I generally agree with these things. I like to use them as ironclad organizers and controlled section headers, but they can be easy to sort of...miss.

I'll try to use show/hide for long, mostly pointless content (like character dialogues) or plot/lore spoilers. The danger here is what might be "pointless" to some is important for others...but that's another thread and has been talked about before. Some players say the entire accessory section is pointless, to provide an extreme example. I disagree, bolted vees are very pointy.

I'll post here when I get around to making those NPC infoboxes.

Tue, 07/28/2015 - 14:13

Dracora-Speaking

Not to the infoboxes yet

We are working on updating missions around the wiki. As with most wiki things, projects bleed into each other. So, regarding the "text as images" issue, there are the following SKWiki related points:

- It's difficult for new editors or editors in general to crop corners unless they have or are aware of the proper tools (I use Jasc PSP 8)
- It's difficult for editors in general (including me) to keep these filenames organized and consistent. Especially in the face of the future.

Some universal points, quoted from StackExchange:

-No SEO benefit - search engines don't read images so they'll ignore any text in images.
-Screenreaders won't read it out so it'll only be of any use to sighted users. (Well, with some Alt text you may get that announced, but it'll be as descriptive text, not as actual paragraph / header text)
-Images aren't vectors (unlike text) so when zooming / pinch-to-zoom the text will become distorted. This wouldn't happen if it was actual text.
-'Retina' browsers will not show text images as clearly as non-retina devices.
-Images are larger than text, so it's an increase in page load time and server requests.
-Page translators (such as Google Translate) won't be able to translate image text, and future localization / internationalisation will be made harder because of this.
-Saving the page to off-line browsers (such as Pocket) may ignore the image text altogether.
-Content won't be recognized in internal search, so people searching your website for terms mentioned in image text won't get found on the results page
-Maintainability - If you need to make changes to text, you just change the text! You cannot change text inside an image unless you have the original file that the image was created with as well as the program that created it. So if the image was created in Photoshop, you would need the original Photoshop file as well as the Photoshop application to change the text.
-Users will be unable to copy and paste [sections of text] from an image.

We will be typing out most of the "text images". Not all of them, some of those are useful, showing chat color. Just mostly the dialogue ones. For me and a few others, images are easier to put up, but that seems to be inconvenient for many, and translating image text is not a task commonly done (though it is a thing) with current "for the masses" technology.
===============================================================================================
EDIT: New template documentation is here (the content) and here (the optional show/hide). It mimics the dialogue bubbles seen in-game.

here is an example of the "content" in action, and that same content used on the relevant mission page.

User:Ciardha has been a huge help with this NPC project, thank you.

Sat, 08/08/2015 - 13:25

Ciardha

thanks!

Thank you Dracora-Speaking, I really appreciate it. I have to agree on one thing: It sure takes a bit to do, but it's not to hard (I'm not good at coding) and it's worth it in my opinion. The Dialogue missions (or the NPC project, what you prefer) aren't that hard to do. Just take pictures of each section in a dialogue mission, and type it out in the code, and voila, you got it.

Fighting missions on that regard are much more annoying to tackle, and there are a lot of mission pages waiting out there to be updated. But it will be done adventually!

I also really want to thank Dracora-Speaking, Snarbylord, Icytea and many others who spend their time making the wiki a better place. Let's continue this work! :D ^_^

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NPC Pages - dialogue content and general format