Spiral Knights - Let's remove Alchemy Orbs from treasure chest drops: The savior!

Let's remove Alchemy Orbs from treasure chest drops: The savior!

22 replies [Last post]

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 10:41

Abelisk

If Alchemy orbs were removed from chest drops, Spiral Knights' population will be restored... Why?

Tier 3 began at 4* gear. After the 2013 update, Alchemy orbs were introduced. Previously, equipment was crafted using materials, crowns, weapons, and the big kahuna - Energy. Now, Three Rings has replaced Energy with Alchemy orbs. I personally like that addition since Alchemy orbs are easier to stock up than Energy since Energy tempts the player to spend their Energy on stuff. So what sucks about the Alchemy orbs? They can be found... anywhere in the Clockworks. That's right! So what now?

My solution is to remove finding Alchemy orbs from treasure boxes. The bad? Players will feel disappointed having to go spend forever stocking crowns up to buy Alchemy orbs. I mean, 800 Energy for three 5* Alchemy orbs is a lot! But, we used to have to pay that much. Another bad: Older players have like one hundred 5* Alchemy orbs stocked up. Solution: get rid of all the bound Alchemy orbs in players inventories (Depot-bought Alchemy orbs are unbound no matter what), so older players will also have to do what newer players do (save crowns up). The good?

- Players will have to spend time saving crowns for buying Orbs, rather than constantly grind the same mission for finding an Alchemy orb(s).

- Players will be so curious as to how the Tier 3 missions are going to be like.

- Players are going to feel like their 5* equipment is very magical.

- Vanguards will be much more valued than today.

- Tier 2 Lockdown will be restored since players will have difficulty crafting 4* gear (Some players will give up on 4* crafting and will forever stay Tier 2 like I did before the Alchemy orb update).

- Less players will become Vanguard and less players will finish Spiral Knights, as a result way more players will be left playing Spiral Knights.

As a result, Spiral Knights will get that "good old" feeling again. We'll then have Tier 2 and Tier 3 Lockdown.

Tl;dr Remove Alchemy orbs from treasure chests, and get rid of everybody's bound Alchemy orbs so older players will also have to do what new players do (save crowns up).

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 10:55

Vohtarak-Forum

im vohtarak, call me by that name

I would say unbinding veterans orbs would be more fair, and keep the mission orb rewards, those are fine

Imagine if you saved up and got an amazing item, then the items mechanic was changed and the devs decided that because its changed it should be taken from your inventory, you would feel cheated and scammed, see the point? People will feel this way if you took all their hard earned orbs away from them, they still worked for it, so they deserve to keep them

Other than that I'm fine with removing them from boxes

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 11:24

Abelisk

Yeah, I was a bit iffy on

Yeah, I was a bit iffy on that subject.

Edit: But think about it - nobody has Alchemy orbs other than 5* orbs. People have so many 5* orbs it's silly, I mean the easiest part of crafting 5* gear is the orbs part. If you got rid of everyone's bound orbs (not unbound), it wouldn't be half as bad as you think. 5* equipment deserves to be a challenge to craft, not like today.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 11:27

Vohtarak-Forum

im vohtarak, call me by that name

Its still taking away things people earned, there's no way to justify it, if you're going to that then you will have to remove every orb, unbound, on the AH, everything, if you're going to rip hard earned rarities out of workers hands you need to scam payers too

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 11:53

Abelisk

They're not exactly hard-earned rarities as you say they are - hardly anyone even has advanced or elite orbs in their pockets. Everyone, I mean everyone literally accidentally gets 5* Alchemy orbs. People don't even want them.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:18

Keepscaite

If this actually happens, the

If this actually happens, the first few days are gonna be absolute terror. The sudden spike in market prices from all the people buying energy is gonna be brutal. I'm also kind of against the idea of forcing players to cap early. This seems like a really roundabout method if you're trying to restore tier 2 LD.

-People are already farming for crowns. Anybody who's been playing long enough has figured out that it's faster and more efficient to just farm for crowns, getting an orb from farming crowns is just a bonus. Only the truly, pointlessly stubborn hunt exclusively for Orbs. Sadly, I can name quite a few. If you remove Orbs from Treasure Vaults, people will still be farming at Vana simply because it's the most efficient thing to do, no matter how repetitive.

-No. Tier 3 missions are exactly the same as tier 2 missions. You do this, you go here, you kill that the end. I'd rather petition for more UNIQUE missions like Silent Legion and stuff. We already can get randomness from the arcade afterall. Why do missions if you're curious or wanting to be surprised?

-With the current system, where 4 stars are stronger than 5 stars? Probably not. This will only encourage people to cap out early, which is not really a good thing. People who cap early quit early. Exceptions exist, but this is the general trend. Even less people than now will so much as WANT to have 5* gear. The only way for people to feel a sense of achievement from crafting 5* is to make them, well, WORTH CRAFTING.

-Vanguards will never be of value. They're just people who've been playing for longer and grinded harder than others. I know a handful of Vanguards who've been playing for years that can still get their bottoms brutally kicked by your average Defender. You'd have to introduce a whole new rank that was entirely skill based for people to have a rank that's obviously of value. There's already a way to gauge a player's skill without looking at rank now anyway. Just look at their Prestige emblem.

-Encouraging people to cap out early is not a good thing. Why do people quit? Because they feel like there's nothing left to do anymore. The faster they feel this way the faster they quit. Once again, if you're trying to restore tier 2 LD this is a very roundabout way.

tl;dr: Don't do it, just don't. it's not that this is a bad idea, it's just that it won't achieve what you're hoping for.

EDIT: I am a ninja, I exist beyond the veil of the night....

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:01

Vohtarak-Forum

im vohtarak, call me by that name

OK I see you think that everyone has the same problem as you
I have quite a few friends with the exact opposite problem
Your argument assumes that no one is in different circumstances than you
This is insanely idiotic and incorrect, I'm surprised I'm even looking at this thread

Edit: this was for Anderson, keepscaite ninjad me

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:24

Abelisk

Keepscaite:
If this actually happens, the first few days are gonna be absolute terror. The sudden spike in market prices from all the people buying energy is gonna be brutal. I'm also kind of against the idea of forcing players to cap early.

I don't really see how it will be "absolute terror" - simple propaganda. Everybody did it from 2010 to 2013. It wasn't bad at all. Please elaborate on what "cap early" means...

People are already farming for crowns. Anybody who's been playing long enough has figured out that it's faster and more efficient to just farm for crowns, getting an orb from farming crowns is just a bonus.

So you're implying that nobody will be left with crowns? False. This will make crowns and Energy much more valuable than what it's worth at the moment. Finish up to Vanguard. You won't require to craft gear anymore. Plus, this will encourage players to actually purchase Energy with real-world money. It will also make the equipment from the Supply Depot a more useful option.

If you remove Orbs from Treasure Vaults, people will still be farming at Vana simply because it's the most efficient thing to do, no matter how repetitive.

Since when have people farmed Treasure Vaults? Never. Also, Vanaduke is the player's choice to farm...

No. Tier 3 missions are exactly the same as tier 2 missions.

How would someone who hasn't done the missions know? Players will treat the missions highly since how hard it took to reach that far.

We already can get randomness from the arcade afterall. Why do missions if you're curious or wanting to be surprised?

Why do you think missions were made in the first place? Missions have a specific set of levels. They also provide an objective unlike the Arcade.

With the current system, where 4 stars are stronger than 5 stars? Probably not. This will only encourage people to cap out early, which is not really a good thing. People who cap early quit early. Exceptions exist, but this is the general trend. Even less people than now will so much as WANT to have 5* gear. The only way for people to feel a sense of achievement from crafting 5* is to make them, well, WORTH CRAFTING.

I don't know what "capping out" means. Other than that, 5* crafting is made to be difficult to achieve. After all, it IS the final class in its type.

Vanguards will never be of value. They're just people who've been playing for longer and grinded harder than others.

New players disagree. New players look up to Vanguards. They're experienced, and have seen what there is to see.

Just look at their Prestige emblem.

Prestige is entirely irrelevant and only proves how many daily missions a player has accumulated.

Encouraging people to cap out early is not a good thing. Why do people quit? Because they feel like there's nothing left to do anymore. The faster they feel this way the faster they quit.

Actually, people will ALWAYS wonder what it's like to progress further. To say nobody will have motivation is completely one-sided.

Vohtarak: Please provide constructive criticism like Keepscaite has.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:32

Vohtarak-Forum

im vohtarak, call me by that name

I was, but you werent giving a reasonable counter argument to continue

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:46

Abelisk

Vohtarak: Well then, explain why you think this idea is a bad one.

Spiral Knights is an MMO. It is NOT a linear game. It's a game to savor. You don't HAVE TO complete the missions. Enjoy the atmosphere, the music, and everything else. Missions give the player something to do, that's it. Reaching the core is not the point of Spiral Knights, but exploring the Clockworks and not knowing to expect, without having the urge to farm is the point of Spiral Knights' gameplay. Remember when we had Mist Energy? That was to limit grinding. Just explore the game. Don't focus on getting to the core and just trying to level up. Plus, players will have curiousity keep them attached to Spiral Knights. Curiousity is more powerful than you think. Just savor the world of Spiral Knights. Limit your playing time, don't just grind yourself to boredom. The point of this idea is to keep players immersed in Spiral Knights for a long time.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 12:52

#10

Fangel

No thanks.

The orb update made Spiral Knights a truly Free to Play game. This includes the progress system - you are free to play the game (clockworks gates), and free to progress in the game (orbs). This means you can get everything in the game by playing it, not paying for it.

Before orbs, every piece of gear that was created was taken out of someone's pocket. That 800 energy doesn't just come from nowhere - someone paid the developers for that energy. Now-a-days, gear doesn't have that requirement, so more gear can be created while no money is spent. Free to play.

With orbs, players who don't understand the energy market have something to pursue for progress. They know they need "three orbs" for their gear, and can search for them and know that the wall is climbable. This creates more stubborn players, but the keyword is "more" as those players don't just outright quit the game. Previous to this, players who didn't look into the market ran into a wall after 2* items, but the wall too high to see over, so they left. Forcing players to "pay", even in virtual currency, will put off many. Forcing player to "play" (via searching for orbs) with a (much more viable) option to pay will make them happier even if the search is frustrating.

Many end-game players prefer the old system as once you reach end-game you could play forever. However the old system was horrible to players just starting out, and that hurts an MMO. The only thing that is bad for end-game players right now is that we can't bypass the forge in any way, which is a shame but not this suggestion.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 13:08

#11

Abelisk

Fangel, you prove a valid

Fangel, you prove a valid point. Though I have a few problems, simplified:

- The system makes the objective of progression faster, and simply way too repetitive (I'll explain a little later). The wall, like you stated, can certainly be too high to climb. But being stubborn like you said is much more common than said. I took a survey with all of my friends and they all said they grinded the same missions over and over to find the orbs they needed. That way, there is absolutely 0 challenge in obtaining the orbs (seeing that people skip the enemies), but rather, an extremely simple "errand"-type of gameplay - very boring! Of course, farming crowns is repetitive as well, though not as simplistic as "speedrunning" levels for finding orbs.

- Pacing is too "fast" now. Players will finish Spiral Knights as if it were some sort of grindfest or something. The only slowdown now is the heating system which keeps players slaying enemies for heat. The problem is the repetitive grinding for Heat Crystals...

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 13:08

#12

Supnaplamqw

-100000000000000000

None of the effects you listed due to the removal will actually happen as orb drops are mostly a side as to crown farming which is the main.Furthermore,this will have an incredible negative impact on veteran,enticing them to leave due to their loss,while having a somewhat minuscule impact on the rest.
In order to restore our fanbase,we need to ADD permanent content,and your idea restricts this system in a negative way.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 13:26

#13

Abelisk

Supnaplamqw: Do we really

Supnaplamqw: Do we really need Orbs dropping as a side?

800 energy equates to about 50-60000 crowns. That may sound overwhelming, and one may think "Is it worth it?" Well, is it? It is. Once you've completed a 5* set, you may have as well completed your expedition to the end of Spiral Knights. While we do need permanent updates added, we finish them quickly and then pretend nothing has happened.

And also, 5* gear is not required to be crafted. One may think 5* gear is the most important thing to have. Personally, 4* equipment is just as useful as 5* equipment. Also, with the Radiant Heat Crystal problem, 5* does very little to serve a player. It is recommended to keep 4*, and only leave 5* if you want an extra challenge and something to do. Remember: 4* equipment is so much easier to craft, being only about 20-35000 crowns per 3 Elite orbs.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 13:32

#14

Supnaplamqw

Let me ask you this:

Do we really need orbs to be taken away?

"While we do need permanent updates added, we finish them quickly and then pretend nothing has happened."

You do realize there has been few true updates in YEARS,right? that's the reason why the many left.

"Personally, 4* equipment is just as useful as 5* equipment. Also, with the Radiant Heat Crystal problem, 5* does very little to serve a player. It is recommended to keep 4*"

There are many instances where 5* is significantly better than its 4* counterpart.Just look at Pretty much all bombs and DA.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 13:40

#15

Abelisk

Bombs are useful as 5*

Bombs are useful as 5* indeed, but their 4* works.

As for Divine Avenger, the charge slightly gives it a boost. I myself keep a 4* Faust even today, and have no problem running through the Clockworks with it. I keep a 4* gun as well. The only 5* weapon I have is Warmaster Rocket Hammer which exploits the classing system. But hey, it works too.

I am not a Pay-to-Play, but I have spent a few $$ on SK.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 13:44

#16

Supnaplamqw

"As for Divine Avenger, the

"As for Divine Avenger, the charge slightly gives it a boost. I myself keep a 4* Faust even today..."

so you don't have DA?and worse you use faust as an example, of all weapons.

DA charge is incredible compared to the 4*,it has a much better crowd control capability and total DPS

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 13:57

#17

Fangel

Pacing is a different problem.

As of right now orbs are a problem with pacing. The entire mission system itself is bad at pacing players. It gets players used to constant action only to throw gear requirements at them every so often. If players ran the arcade between missions they would have more crowns, orbs, and all that while achieving the same goals. This will also make them better at the game, as only fighting jellies won't help you once fiends show up.

My suggestion in the past has been to force missions to require minerals to create a lobby. Players would put in X minerals for a total of Y. These requirements wouldn't need to be all that big (i.e., if you get a large mineral, you'll be set for the mission), but it's something that you'd have to either team up with others for or explore the clockworks if you're a lone wolf.

Use the old gate construction methods to create depths, such as moonstone and valestone to do the jade triangle levels. I'd say 1*tier (1 for tier 1, 2 for tier 2, etc) minerals per type per depth. This means a fire undead 5 depth gate (firestorm citadel) would take 15 crimsonite, 30 luminite, and 15 dark matter from the party at the get-go. If you're a seraphynx user throw your crimsonite and dark matter in for your drakon and masky users.
If you get lucky, you'll get more minerals than you need, and this will promote full party play and make people who grind end-game missions exclusively run dry on those minerals, and have to rely on other people or back to the arcade.

Orbs are not the way to go about slowing progress as they already are. You need to slow the player down with missions, not with gear. Players will rush through missions if given the chance then be stuck at the same wall and grind for crowns if that means they get moving again. You want to make the grind for orbs a grind for crowns again... Which is still a grind. To make missions go slower, you need to make players want to do the clockworks. An entry fee that you can't make money elsewhere from (sprite food is for merchants, not for a new-to-the-market player) is a great way to do this. Players will say "oh I can use minerals this way!" instead of never picking up minerals in the clockworks.
Basically, make missions not completely free and players will slow down, but don't make them realize they're paying.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 14:06

#18

Abelisk

Supnaplamqw:
Faust is a shadow variant of Avenger, so I too can relate. As for the charge, why not obtain a gun? You'll get much more significance out of a secondary weapon rather than go through the weapon charging process.

Fangel: That's a fantastic response. Limiting missions is absolutely genious! It not only makes Minerals useful, but makes the missions feel more exclusive. I like that. The throwback is that Three Rings sees creative suggestions like yours a "typical" suggestion. If only a big neon light could show Three Rings to it!

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 14:17

#19

Supnaplamqw

No offense,but you don't seem to be all that knowledgeable

The same reason people spam any sword charge:DPS. Why do you think brandishes are so popular?
Also, on the note of Three Rings,it seems the problem is with their resources than their attitude,and seeing Sonic Boom,I feel SEGA is part of the problem

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 14:21

#20

Abelisk

Supnaplamqw: Well of course,

Supnaplamqw: Well of course, Brandish swords have the best charge attacks in Spiral Knights. As for Divine Avenger, I think the 2-hit swing combo would be far more effective rather than spamming the charge attack. Why? Well two hits can be more useful than a single attack. The only real use for the DA charge is... not much, really. It's simply best to avoid enemy attacks and hit them at the right time.

Sat, 01/10/2015 - 14:25

#21

Supnaplamqw

"Brandish swords have the

"Brandish swords have the best charge attacks in Spiral Knights"

Depends on situation actually,there's some situations where Levi's charge beats them. There's no "Best"
Based on experience,I'll tell you if you can spam w/ regard for your teammates,spam them just remember to group them first like you would using just normal slashes.

Wed, 01/14/2015 - 10:01

#22

Orangeo

Is this a joke?"Players will

Is this a joke?

"Players will have to spend time saving crowns for buying Orbs, rather than constantly grind the same mission for finding an Alchemy orb(s)."

No. Players will either farm vanna for orbs as it stands, or farm vanna for crowns with your suggestion. Farming is farming, and people are probably going to mostly do the same mission. Furthermore, crown farming only adds to the games crown supply, which drives up the price of CE, making it harder to buy orbs via CE thus making it more difficult for players to progress through the game. I'm pretty sure everyone wants to progress through the game, and OOO needs us to as well in order to pressure players into sinking CE on orbs.

"Players will be so curious as to how the Tier 3 missions are going to be like."

Or they could google it and learn it's the basically same but a little harder.

"Players are going to feel like their 5* equipment is very magical."

Everyone knows an leveled 5* is actually worse than a level 10 4* as long as they're comparable. That and what, "magical"? Is this a Disney movie?

"Vanguards will be much more valued than today."

Who cares? Why would that even be a good thing? I mean I seriously don't want MORE people begging me for stuff.

"(Some players will give up on 4* crafting and will forever stay Tier 2 like I did before the Alchemy orb update)."

Why would you want players to not progress through the game? Would you ever make a game where players were expected to only go halfway through?

I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm legitimately not sure if this suggestion is a joke to see how many people will willingly shoot themselves in the foot. I wouldn't necessarily mind replacing the orb system or lowering the odds of 5* orbs in exchange for increasing the odds of 4* and/or radiant crystals, but just saying "Hey! Let's make everyone get fewer drops! Yay!" when players are already having trouble making gear is ridiculous.

Fangel is right to point out that making players go through more gates might help with the pacing, but I think making missions require minerals is odd. It would be better to simply make quests which require playing through all the depths of a given teir in a gate or something, in exchange for an orb from that same teir upon completion.

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Let's remove Alchemy Orbs from treasure chest drops: The savior!