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Another shield suggestion

45 replies [Last post]
Thu, 01/29/2015 - 15:58
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt

Small shields: Would have the ability to half any incoming damage that is done to it. Has weak regeneration rate.

Medium shields: Would have high regeneration ability that enable it to refill it's shield bar very quickly. But a strong attack would break it easily in one or two hits.

Large shields: Would have the ability to hulk down any attack thrown at it and not get knock back. Would also negate that attack so that it does not inflict any damage on nearby allies. Edit: Large shields have average shield regeneration.

These suggestions for shields is to give shields more variety then just defense. This would give them types and would give them more use when thinking tactics. I feel these suggestion would improve the play style because shields would not merely mean defense, they will mean a certain play style that players can cater too even if not labeled class, it would kind of define class types in spiral knights.

Small shields would fall under swiftstrike buckler, proto shield, iron buckler, force buckler, Darkfang Shield and green ward.

Medium shields would fall under Blazebreak Shield, Blizzbreaker Shield, Scarlet Shield, Surge Breaker Shield, Aegis, Barbarous Thorn Shield, Celestial Shield, Crest of Almire, Dragon Scale Shield, Dread Skelly Shield, Grey Owlite Shield, Heater Shield, Power Mitt, Royal Jelly Shield, Exalted Honor Guard, The Bitter End, and The Final Gasp.

Large shields would fall under Ancient Plate Shield, Gorgomega, Grand Tortoise, Ironmight Plate Shield, Omega Shell, Omegaward, Savage Tortoise, Volcanic Plate Shield, and Node Slime Wall.

Now some suggestions for shields with special abilities:

Force Buckler: Has the ability to create a vial stun effect upon the shield breaking. This stun last as long as a tier 3 vial. But this stun also boost the monsters attack during the stun duration.

Green Ward: shield bar regenerates faster upon the knight being inflected with the poison effect.

Blazebreak Shield: Ricochet any fire damage that is thrown at it at another direction which can damage nearby monsters if hit by it. Very similar to the alchemer gun. This does not however negate that damage.

Blizzbreaker Shield: Ricochet any ice damage that is thrown at it at another direction which can damage nearby monsters if hit by it. Very similar to the alchemer gun. This does not however negate that damage.

Surge Breaker Shield: Ricochet any shock damage that is thrown at it at another direction which can damage nearby monsters if hit by it. Very similar to the alchemer gun. This does not however negate that damage.

Scarlet Shield: Fake death which instantly gives the knight one more pip of health after being killed. Can only use once per level. After the shield has given the knight that health, it can no longer help boost the knights health for the remainder of that level.

Darkfang Shield: 25% of all fire and shock damage that is inflicted upon it is taken as shield regeneration which enhances its regeneration for a short period of time.

Aegis: Piercing and normal attacks boost the shield's shield bash attack damage value. Can only boost it by 50% if the shield is low on energy.

Ancient Plate Shield: All normal damage increases the knights chance of completely negating an attack and receiving no damage reduction for that one attack. The chance bar is carried over as long as the knight is in the clockworks and can be carried over to other levels. The bar is reset every time the knight get's that chance.

Barbarous Thorn Shield: "Black gaze" When ever the knight block an attack from a monster, that monster's defense is reduced by 20 - 30 % for 5 to 10 seconds.

Celestial Shield: Upon receiving a large attack, the shield decreases that monster's attack for 3 seconds, and increases the users attack by 50% for 2 seconds.

Crest of Almire: Upon the knight activating his shield, all undead monsters gain a small agro percentage towards the knight.

Dragon Scale Shield: For every time the knight using the shield is inflicted with poison or fire or both statuses, the shields defense in increased by 50% for fire and 50% defense increase for poison. If the knight is inflicted with both statuses, The shields defense values are increased by 100% during the duration of the status infliction's. When the inflections are gone, the shields goes back to normal.

Dread Skelly Shield: All undead monsters regard the player as one of their own after the shield is broken. After the shield fully recharges, they will notice the player as an enemy again.

Grey Owlite Shield: While in any candle themed dungeon, The shield can act as a momentary lite candle upon shield bash. This effect last 10 seconds and has a cool down of 5 seconds.

Gorgomega, Grand Tortoise, Omegaward, and Savage Tortoise: All tortodrone theme shields gain 25% defense increase upon their shield bar going under half way and 50% increase on their shield closing to break.

Heater Shield: The knight can escape being frozen upon using shield bash.

Power Mitt: Upon shield bash, the knight can walk through any fire them hazard without being burn for 2 - 4 seconds.

Ironmight Plate Shield: Any large knock back base attack is repelled and thrown back upon the monster knocking it back equal the amount.

Omega Shell: Upon shield bash, the knight is invulnerable from damage during the duration of the shield bash.

Royal Jelly Shield: All slime/jelly monster base attack is absorbed as if a Royal Mini/mini jelly cube is attacking.

Volcanic Plate Shield: While the knight is on fire, all damage inflicted on the shield is negated.

Exalted Honor Guard: While on a mission, the knight will get a free companion that is invulnerable to damage. This companion looks like a scouter and aggregates agro from all turret monsters towards it. It will disappear upon the shield breaking, and comes back when the shield fully heals. This companion does not attack and just follows the knight around with a robo knight shield to block incoming attacks. The knight can also command the companion to pick up minerals, or keys, and can even serve as an extra inventory slot for the knight to carry things. Though all items on it will permanently disappear upon it disappearing when the shield breaks.

The Bitter End: Upon the knight carrying this shield, all npc knights will salute when approaching near that knight. Also all npc knights/robo knights and turrets and will get a boost in defense while inside the clockworks.

The Final Gasp: Upon the knight carrying this shield, all npc knights/robo knight, air strike and ally turrets will get a boost in attack while in clockworks. And all npc knights will bow emote when near the knight.

Node Slime Wall: Shield bash ability geyser will take all damage inflicted upon slim monster during the shield bash to heal the knight. Also any jelly base armor the knight is wearing will get it's defense boosted by 50%.

I feel i might have been lazy in my creation of these shield abilities, but give them a thorough discussion to see if they fit. Hope you got some replacement ideas though if they do not fit. Thanks for reading :) and i hope to read productive criticism.

Thu, 01/29/2015 - 16:35
#1
Supnaplamqw's picture
Supnaplamqw
At this point I'd rather shields be classified differently

But I like especially where the Medium shields do>I presume you mean to say that large ones have average regen rate.
As for the abilities,they're basic but decent as you imply,but I especially like grey owlite's as it gives the miniature dilemma of whether to get a shadow shield for defence or this one for level practicality.
Another thing I suggest is shields that INSTEAD affect one's dash/bash.Like a category that's faster w/ less cooldown but covers less distance,going a little astray yet along w/ your formula at the same time.

Thu, 01/29/2015 - 17:14
#2
Blazeshot's picture
Blazeshot
IHRIITGAD

I think this idea is cool, and if not that than very creative. But I do not think it's for spiral knights. It is a very complex idea. overly complex in regards to SK. This individualizes gear, which in turn messes up game balance. I've mentioned this before in a different thread post. the SK gear system is pretty simple: status, defense, and bonuses. and it works pretty elegantly in the gameplay. I'm sorry, but I really don't think it would work.
-1

I like the creativity though. I'd like to see some of your other ideas on the suggestions forum in the future Blandaxt

Thu, 01/29/2015 - 18:29
#3
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
yes

@Supnaplamqw:

Yes large ones have average regeneration rate. I feel the grey owlite shield kinda fits the level sense the candle levels are usually about the owlites, so i thought why not give it an ability for that level specifically.

A bit confused by your suggestion, how would i make a shield faster, less cool down, but covers less distance? hmmmm. What category would that fit under?

@Blazeshot: Well the point was to create classes and give meaning to gear then just an added statistic change. I wan't to give gear more abilities to make them unique so players can come up with their own interesting formulas. Well complexity is not for everyone, but this is how i wish spiral knight would be like so that everyone can feel like they have their own unique play style then just the general sword, gun, and bomb mechanics.

Thu, 01/29/2015 - 19:56
#4
Blazeshot's picture
Blazeshot
IHRIITGAD

@Blandaxt
no, its not that complexity isn't for me. it's that it's not for spiral knights. the simplicity of gear balance in spiral knights gameplay is elegant. this gives way to much power to shields. WAY to much power.

It's also not the shield's job to do this. shields are bash, block, bump. all of them have the same basic functions. what you want to do is more or less make each shield it's own classification.

This just doesn't fit into the SK gameplay. its to imbalancing and complex to implement at this point.

Fri, 01/30/2015 - 07:48
#5
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
but

@Blazeshot:

But their are some shields that already has special abilities. Shields like the Barbarous Thorn Shield enhances attack, Scarlet shield gives an extra pip of health, swiftstrike buckler enhances attack speed to all types of weapons, and some shields who do not come with a special ability has cool animations like the tortodrone shields. So i think to a small degree we already have shields that act outside of their normal functions which is to block. So there is already a small level of complexity involve in the shields of spiral knights.

But at the end of it all, i really do not want to discuss the reason to implement this idea and a way to balance it out. The way i see it, if the devs like this idea, they will spend time to balance it out and find a reason to make it implementable. I have seen several pass threads who cam out with full fleshed out balanced in my opinion ideas that even had a good reason to back it up. But sense it all comes down to the developers if they want to make it happen it not, then we will never know if they had chosen that idea until it's implemented.

What i really want to discuss is if these abilities fit the shields i attached to them and how do you think it would work when the shields receive attacks from the new energy regeneration i invented. Also, do you think the large shields abilities fit it's description.

Towards the end of the thread, i would like to discuss balance and reason to implement. Cause i feel this discussions usually lead to disagreements and arguments that spawn of the original topic of the thread.

Fri, 01/30/2015 - 14:46
#6
Trats-Romra's picture
Trats-Romra

@OP
I liked it. Any problem if I create another thread like yours? I was trying to pull out this, but I was a bit lazy to do it.

@Blazeshot
I do think it fits on Spiral Knights. Spiral Knights is originally based on exploration and experimentation. You can even know what each shield does, but you won't know how much you will appreciate using it. A lot of people changed from some weapon type to bombs. They knew how bombs work, but they just noticed how much they liked bombs when they used one. And, if you want, you can just use the shields for basics: bash, block and bump.
Each bomb is different from another bomb. A shield can't be different of another shield? Add flavor to the game?

Fri, 01/30/2015 - 15:14
#7
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Good and bad

First bits are universal and pretty good. However, there should be more shields per category and not have them necessarily based on "size". Size shouldn't restrict how the shields work IMO, and there needs to be a balance in the shields themselves.

Therefore, the shield categories should be: Lightweight, Armored, and Heavy.
Lightweight shields are more susceptible to damage types they don't resist, but they are always regenerating their shield at a slow rate while the shield is not broken. After being reduced to less than 10% health, the shield will recover at 25% faster than the current rate until it is either hit again or reaches 100%.

Lightweight shields would be composed of small and moderate sized shields. Includes: breaker series shields, proto shields and variants(includes swiftstrike), barbarous thorn shield line, dragon scale shield line, scarlet shield, skelly shield line, heater shield/power mitt, green ward.

Armored shields are shields with a bit more bulk behind them. They are meant to be hit, but not too frequently. Because of this they have a low-medium natural universal defense again all damage types(yes, even unknown ones) when they are above 50% shield health. These shields will break, and thus once depleted will start recharging their shield again 33% faster. (not the recharge speed, the time before it starts regenerating again)

Armored shields would be composed of larger shields, but not the thickest plates. Includes: defender line, owlite line, jelly line (conflicted on the jelly here. I can see it being lightweight but that's a lot of piercing shields in that category then), crest of almire line, celestial shield.

Heavy shields are shields that take a bulk of damage and do it frequently. However, these shields need to not break, as they should be protecting you as much as possible. Thus, heavy shields have 15% more health compared to other shields of their star level (omega shield still has its higher base health), and have a low universal resistance to all statuses. Shield bashes cost only 25% of the user's shield and can be performed when the player has at least 25% shield. Yes, you can shield bash 3 times in a row. When below 25% shield health, these shields will block statuses as if they a "maximum!" UV on the shield, and get a a "medium" UV against all damage types the shield does not naturally defend against. These shields have a 10% slower regeneration speed and have an additional 1 second before regeneration can happen.

Heavy shields would be composed of large and thick shields. Includes: tortodrone-themed shields, plate shields, stone tortoise branch of scale shield line.

I tried to get one of each damage type shields into every category, but I guess I never realized how big a lack of shadow shields we have. I suppose we make up for it by having a bunch of shadow armor, but still...

Fri, 01/30/2015 - 15:20
#8
Blazeshot's picture
Blazeshot
IHRIITGAD

I do like the classification of shield into heavy, light, whatever. that sounds cool, i wouldn't mind seeing that in the game.

its the weird shield individual abilities that bother me.

Fri, 01/30/2015 - 16:15
#9
Trats-Romra's picture
Trats-Romra
@Blazeshot

If the game's core is simple, every content you put above is simple, I think. The abilities are based on basic things: shield bashing, blocking and bumping.
For example, the Heater Shield. The ability of it lets the knight escape when frozen. It's simple, right? You just move and the freeze don't bother you anymore.
What need to be changed would be Exalted Honor Guard. There's no button for the robot. It would make this shield a little more complex.

@Blandaxt
How you command the robot of Exalted Honor Guard?

Fri, 01/30/2015 - 18:56
#10
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Well how do I put it

Individual shields should probably not have super unique thingies put onto them in the same way that armors don't have them. However, if shields are classified a certain way (not too many categories), then it can work wonderfully.

The way I see it is that shields are classified by Defense and Status resist right now. Armors are based on Defense, Status resist, and combat bonuses. Weapons are classified by damage, status, family bonuses. I say that we give shields one extra thingy to make them follow that area, and not make it too complex(each shield for itself a big no. Look at what that's done to swiftstrike/BTS in comparison to all other choices). On the shield you could even have it say "lightweight", "armored", or "heavy" where the accessory slot icons usually are.
Shields are boring right now in that you only choose status or defense. If you're not choosing that, then you're choosing the one to two shields that do have combat bonuses. I want every shield to have some situation where it's viable, hence shield classes work in that favor.

Sun, 02/01/2015 - 07:45
#11
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
responses

@Trats-Romra:

Glad you like my idea. I wanted to make shields matter more so i thought why not give them different properties.

@Fangel:

" Size shouldn't restrict how the shields work " The thing is, the size of the shields sometimes comes with negative effects like movement speed reduction http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Savage_Tortoise although not all large shields have this property http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Omega_Shell or this http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Volcanic_Plate_Shield . Sense some large shields carry this negative feedback, i thought that means their SIZE has a negative effect on the knight meaning the bigger the shield, the more negative feedback the knight will receive. This means SIZE has an effect on how the shields function. So i base size as the basis for my energy system and made small shields base on deflection, medium shields base on endurance and large shields base on power. This means large shields block powerful attacks easily without receiving any knock back and negates the attack so that it does not hurt any allies behind that knight, small shields halve's any damage thrown by deflecting the momentum of the attack another direction from the knight, and medium shields can endure many attacks at once without breaking as long as those attacks are not considered large like a trojan smash. And i feel it's more realistic that a large shield can defend allies behind that knight while small shields emphasize deflecting attacks and medium shields endure attacks.

I made it so that the end variant of the shields receive the special abilities because that is the furthest the knight can go with that shield in upgrading it. This means that any previous lines like boosted plate shield will not receive the special abilities until it reaches the ironmight plate shield. That shield will still retain it's properties as a large shield though. It just will not receive any of the special abilities till it reaches the end of it's upgrade.

What i take fom your suggestion is that it would modify shields pass the game boundaries of how a shield functions. When i say boundaries, i mean things like adding uv to a shield that has no uv on it, or giving large shields more energy to bash, or giving large shields the properties of large weapons like the troika after it has perform its charge attack will pause for close to 1 second before the player can move. The things is, in my suggestion, i wanted to only tweak how shields work a little bit from what i have seen so far from what is already in game. Large shields in lockdown receives no knock back as long as it's up, Large shields carry negative slow abilities that slow the player down, so i thought why not add abilities for the shields to give them more varied flavor and all shields regenerates the same in sk, so i thought why not tweak the regeneration to also have another area where shields can be more varied. But if you add any uv's to the suggestion, or changing how the bash functions, i feel you would be changing shields a bit too much because: One uv's are what the developers use for revenue which means they would want all players to use the hard earn crowns on getting uv's and two: The bash functions the same for all shields, but if you change it, it feels like were leaning a bit too much how shields generally functions and taking away too many similarities shields ave with each other.

@Trats-Romra:

About the exalted honor guard the robot itself will just follow you around. The extra inventory slot will just be another button on your keyboard you can press to pick use an item the robot has picked up as it follows you around. If you don;t want it to carry an item for you anymore, just use up all the items in that one inventory slot. And the part where it carries minerals and keys for you will just be an effect it carries automatically with it when you walk it next to the key or mineral. So really, you won't be pushing any buttons to command the knight. It already has an automated function that makes it does all the things for it to help you out. You just have to walk it to where you want it to help you and it will perform its function.

@Fangel:

I agree with you that i want to make all shields have a use in every situation even if it was that force buckler you wen into tier 5 with. This is why i want to give all shields 3 properties base on the 3 sizes we have in the game. Deflect, Endurance, Power. And from there, once they reach the end of their line, i want to give a bonus ability to shields that have reached the end of their upgrading line. I could give all shields an ability, but i chose the ones that i felt stood out the most base on their visual graphic artistic looks. I felt these shields look awesome and needs to stand out more in situations they are best and excel at. Like the how the heater shield is suppose to warm u up and protect you against ice. The ability i gave it makes perfect sense in my opinion how as long as the shields has energy to shield bash, the knight can shield bash himself out of a frozen situation/status. So one: i gave all shields only 3 properties and Two: I gave some shields that stood out in my eyes an ability that i felt suit their stature as that types of shields and a way for them to stand out in the situation they are meant to be used for. So it's not complex, just two changes.

Sun, 02/01/2015 - 12:40
#12
Blazeshot's picture
Blazeshot
IHRIITGAD

wow. my mind is blown. we all have way to much time on our hands

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 23:51
#13
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
I wonder

@Blazeshot:

I wonder why, but i am taking that as a negative comment and an insult to my post. Well, that is just how i am taking it, but you might have had different intentions. Did i hit home?

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 06:16
#14
Blazeshot's picture
Blazeshot
IHRIITGAD

oh, no sorry, I'm not trying to be insulting. I was more or less stating that I spend way to much of my time on the internet (spiral knights of course). I mean, this obviously does not apply to everyone, but it does apply to me. I can remove it if you want

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 12:31
#15
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Well let's see

Shield size has never had any resemblance to how they worked. The shield lines have. All tortodrone lines have a MSI debuff, which is unique to those shield lines. All plate shields have a high normal defense and either moderate or no additional special resistance. Omega shell is the same size as the omegaward, yet one has a MSI decrease and the other doesn't. Usually the bigger the shield the higher star level it is - take a look at the 3* tortoshield and tell me how that slows you down but the omega shell, whose description explicitly states that the "sheer weight of this powerful shield makes it only an option for the strongest of warriors" doesn't.
I'll channel my inner EoS real quick and say "It's not how big the shield is, it's how you use it ;)"

Also, changing how all shields work (i.e., classes) is actually much simpler than making each individual shield have a special ability. Why? You just make one bit of code for each type of shield and make the shield talk back to that "link" opposed to creating a completely new bunch of code, art, and all that for a single ability on a reskinned weapon. Make one of the old missions give a tutorial on each type of shield and perhaps give players a plate shield for free so that we can try out every type of shield for "free".
Also, reskinned weapons should always be a complete reskin. It is never good game design to have a reskin have a more/less desirable stat that the other version, especially if it is a limited-time item.

I also used "UV" ranking as a way to showcase how much additional defense the shields would gain. These "UVs" would be invisible to the player on the stats screen but be in effect. Additional UVs acquired from crafting or Punch would be static and show on the shield tooltip. Essentially your shield is getting a "defense up!" orb with the defensive abilities of a universal low UV.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 21:19
#16
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
It's okay

@Blazeshot:

It's okay, i'm just a defensive person when it comes to discussions. Sorry.

@Fangel:

I'm not sure why one heavy shield has msi low while some doesn't. I think the devs were inconsistent or were just trying to balance things out.

I am doing both where giving all shield classes and giving them a special bonus ability when they reach a fully heated version at the end of their star line. I am not changing the stats on the shields, just giving them different abilities that sets the re-skin from the original so that it can be unique by having a different ability then the original.

Oh so they get a boost from the uv's they install and the ones from the ability of the shields. Hmm, i understand what you mean. Basically it's a defense up but you described it as uv's. It's a good idea.

Overall though, i do not see my idea as overly complex in concept, but i can understand that when coding these ideas into the game, it's an entirely different field.

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 16:26
#17
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Especially that robot bit

Having a helper robot for a single shield... Which is a reskin... Is already a coding nightmare. Why? It holds a value of certain items and it all breaks upon your shield breaking. We want people to use their shield, not never shield because they want 2 extra crimsonite.

The reason I see behind older shields having no MSD is because movement speed modifiers didn't exist at the game's start. But I used that as an example as to why sizes of the shields shouldn't determine exactly how effective they are. Visuals are one thing, how they work is another.

Your concept behind shields seems pretty easy on paper, but it's not as much to make it happen in game. It's the difference between having a plan and executing it. Drawing a map is one thing. Following it is another, especially if you drew up a map that doesn't correspond to its environment.

Special ability per shield shouldn't be anything that you can't just slap onto another thing. Basically, if you want shields to be super special, have it be a stat added onto it. Most of them could have maybe a +1 HP at level 5 or 10. But others might have a CTR, ASI, MSI, etc. on it. Make it be specialized too if you want. These would all be "lows", as not to directly make the BTS or Swiftstrike obsolete.
The abilities you've given the shields as of now are all very specific and many are not something that could currently be slapped on a shield. Reclassifing the shields is something that I'm all for, giving each and every one a special ability... Something that no other gear items in the game do, is something I'm not as much for.

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 15:35
#18
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
Ideas

@Fangel:

I don't see the helper robot as a bad idea. The crimsonite or whatever other mineral it is carrying would drop top the ground like it does for any other knight that leaves the party. It would not change just cause it suddenly a robot that is carrying it. The only things that would disappear are the items in the inventory slot like the vials or other items. The idea is a concept and the developers can see how it will work themselves if they like the idea. We should not think whether or not something is possible or not possible in coding cause that is not our fields of expertise as forumers who come up with ideas. Our field of expertise is coming up with concepts that fit the product that is spiral knights. Sure we can try to come up with an easier set up that the developers can use to program it easier, but that does not fall into the thought process of whether an idea is possible or not when dealing with codes.

So far in sk, we have not seen any kind of basis how shield function besides the shield's health bar and some shields that come with combat boost and combat negative feedback. We can only infer from the game play experience and so far that is an ambiguous source. This means shields can work in any number of ways, so contrary to my previous post on size, you are right that the shield's functions are not base on size. But my suggestion is to have the abilities given be based on size and that is how i wish for the shields to be treated. This means a smaller shield would fall into the deflecting class while a larger shield will fall under the power class. I do not wish to change how i base their functions, so i will keep my their class abilities base on their size.

As i said before, i will not think about the coding because we as forumers do not have influence on the coding, we only can have ideas/concepts for the developers to draw on when they want to introduce something new and player base into the game.

I do not want the special abilities to be something you can swap around to any other shield. The special abilities should be unique to that shield alone and would only be usable in the clockworks so as to not affect pvp/lockdown. The way i see it, shields/most gears in the game should have things that singles them out and give them a unique feature when they have reached the end of their line. This way, players would have an incentive to make them reach the end of their line and fully heated.

I'm sorry, but i do not want to follow your idea of having all gear be blended into a whirlpool of general functionality. I want some/most gear to shine their own brilliant light/unique functions so that some players would be attracted to one while other be attracted to another. This way the world will be filled with variety and not be a bland one type of flavor.

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 16:31
#19
Fangel's picture
Fangel
I'm saying in terms of other design

How gear is designed in this game: Defense items make you take less damage from certain sources or outright block it, or trades some of that for combat stat bonuses. Offense items (weapons) deal damage through different patterns.

Now, to look back on it, the items work in big groups of 3. There are 3 special damage types, 3 weapon classes, 3 types of gear items knights equip (armor, shields, weapons), 3 battle sprites with 3 abilities each...
Going along that path, if we want to buff up shields, give them 3 categories. The ones you've said were good, and I listed an alternative possible 3 inspired by yours. But the thing is, armors don't have special abilities. Weapons don't have special abilities (other than maybe the mixmaster) - swords hit things in front of them, guns shoot damage forwards, bombs make damage within a certain radius. Shields... Don't have special abilities. That's what you want to change.

However, from a design standpoint, each individual shield doesn't need a special ability. That gets weird and into a strange point, especially if you make reskins special. A reskin should be just that - a reskin. It would be insulting to me, who has the 4* honor shield, if the 5* honor shield had an ability that I could never obtain because I wasn't a vanguard at that event. I do have an aegis however, and if those shared an ability, then it wouldn't be unfair.
Reskins are cosmetic, and should never be anything more.

Shields under a common system will also be less confusing. You see the variety that is the gunner update gear, right? Those are confusing to all players. Having a class system makes it so you make the shield for the shield, not for the special ability that you get at 5*.

You want to make the game much more varied but are willing to give up clarity for it. I say add variation, but not so much that we can't learn it within the first 3 hours of playing the game.

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 19:02
#20
Sir-Shadow-Striker's picture
Sir-Shadow-Striker
If I might suggest

Another game I play is Starbound, which now has a viable and easy to understand shield system. It's in many ways similar to SK; both have a regeneration for the shields guard, and both can be broken if a strong enough attack is dealt to it. But, the main difference is that you can parry blows.
Example:
A lumber swings at you, bringing your shield up just as the attack hits, would cause the shield to absorb all the damage, and not reduce its guard. If you were to raise too early, it would lower the guard or break it entirely.

Another Example:
A multiple hit attacker such as a gorgo starts its attack, raising the shield at the right time would prevent all 3 (or 2 if it's at T2) from damaging you or the shield.

As for having different shield values like, light, medium or heavy could all have different pull up rates, light being quick to bring in front of you, medium a bit slower, and heavy being the slowest.

I'm not actually suggesting they add this, but something like it would be great. Parrying is a necessity to a sword fight.

Sat, 02/07/2015 - 12:07
#21
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Err

A parry would be neat, but with the lag that happens in this game it would hurt more than help. I think if we had some sort of parrying-blade class of shield that counter-attacked upon being hit then players would have fun using those.

Sat, 02/07/2015 - 14:54
#22
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
Warning: Superiority Complex.

Sorry to poke holes in the "OOO works in threes" thing you said Fangel but there are 4 types of equipment. If you include Helms. Then there's also Trinkets. There are 6 levels of weapons, 6 stratum and 6 monster families (Illuminati confirmed O.O). 4 main bosses, 1 additional mission (can't remember the word).
3 is not the only magic number.

Sat, 02/07/2015 - 22:11
#23
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
My reply

@Fangel:

Reskins....The whole game is mostly a reskin.

#1. Spiral Brigandine, Frostbreaker Armor, Cobalt Armor, Icebreaker Armor, Blizzbreaker Armor, Solid Cobalt Armor, Mighty Cobalt Armor, Azure Guardian Armor all reskins.

#2. Groundbreaker Armor, Spiral Cuirass, Vitasuit, Vitasuit Plus, Circuit Breaker Armor, Volt Breaker Armor, Surge Breaker Armor, Vitasuit Deluxe all reskins.

#3. Spiral Culet, Emberbreak Armor, Firebreak Armor, Blazebreak Armor are all reskins.

#4. Spiral Draped Armor, Spiral Scale Mail, Drake Scale Mail, Wyvern Scale Mail, Dragon Scale Mail are all reskins.

Need i say more?!

Most of the gear in the game are all reskins of each other, but we still treat each gear as its own individual gear. This means that whether it's a reskin or not does't matter, all that matters is how well it can function.

Did i not say that they would gain the ability at the end of their line? If the 4 star honor gear was what you got, then why would you not get the ability on the honor gear? The honor gears cannot be upgraded which means that they are each their own gear even though they look like they can be upgraded. What does this means? It means that each of the honor gear will get the honor gears ability regardless of their stars cause that is the end of their lines. So, no you would not be insulted because you would also get that ability on your honor gear.

The similarities in the big group of 3 example is as ambiguous as my example of basing the shields functionality on size. You can find examples in 3 in the game, but that does not mean the developers will not change how it is in the future. How do you know their will not be added another sprite? Or a new type of weapon? Or a new special damage type? And who knows, maybe even a new sprite ability? All i know is that the game has room to grow and i am not about to stump its potential just because i like it the way it is.

Your saying clarity as if the game is perfectly balanced and nothing is flawed. Are you saying the game is perfectly clear right now? Then let me ask, why is the winmillion under use, under powered, and can shoot projectiles when it's a sword that is suppose to slash? Why can the rocket hammer use a dash function like it was meant to have that ability sense it was created? Why has the shard bombs been reduced to a broken program that doesn't function when it very tight spaces or interfere spawn rate when there is a monster nearby the point of explosion? There are many unclear thing in the game at the moment and many of us in the forums have put in suggestion to correct these clouded implementations which in my opinion where great suggestions. But these suggestions stayed here in the forums and have not been implemented. Maybe they will be implemented in the future, but all we know is that it is UNCLEAR as to what the developers will make of them. So the game is filled with foggy unclear things, and i for one do not think adding abilities to gear will make it more unclear. I see the abilities as directing that gear towards a specific path that defines that gears nature and history/description.

@Sir-Shadow-Striker:

Parry makes perfect sense as a good addition to sk sense we already have to time our shield at the right time for use to block a monsters attack. Though it will be hard to imagine how the time sensitive parry would work for sk though, but it's a good idea nonetheless.

@Fangel:

Hmmm, i don;t think parry is a bad addition. We always say lag is an issue, and it is, but lag is something that affects everyone. But everyone still plays the game even if they have lag because they want to try out their luck. If you think about it, everything that a player does is a time sensitive process while battle-ling in the clock works. From attacking to defending to dodging, all of it is a time sensitive process. So adding parry to that would make it that players will have to use another time sensitive action to get it right and usually those that have less lag will perform better then those who have lag. Lag is more of a technical problem in my point of view and only if that technical problem is affected by a program will that program be thought up as a bad idea. And again sense lag is not something we can test out with the ideas we suggest, we should not venture as if experts in that field. That problem will be left to the developers.

@Chaos-Mist:

Well it was just a similarity he saw between the things in sk. He might have miscalculated, but it's something we all do when inferring something. I was thinking that 3 kind of represent the infinite swirl of the spiral for spiral knights as i was reading the similarities and also though of 3 rings the sign or the spiral knights company lol.

Sun, 02/08/2015 - 09:12
#24
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
Warning: Superiority Complex.

3 Rings is the "Three Rings Of The Elven Kings" from Lord Of The Rings.

Thu, 02/12/2015 - 15:35
#25
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Bah...

Visual reskins is just that, a reskin. Using the same art with different stats behind it is not a reskin anymore, even if they do look identical. Valkyrie and fallen are useful for entirely different scenarios. They are not reskins. However, my node slime crusher and sudaruska act exactly the same. They are reskins.
Celestial Sabre is not a reskin because it deals stun, unlike the leviathan blade. Everyone should want one of those over the leviathan blade. See where I'm getting?

However, my 4* honor shield and my 5* aegis are both functionally the same right now, if my aegis were a mighty defender. I would have to sacrifice my 5* shield (no statuses on them, so I'm relying entirely on defense and new abilities) to simply get whatever extra bonuses the 4* one has. This functionally makes the honor shield a different shield from the defender line, thus making it a time-sensitive item. Reskins must function exactly the same as their counterparts else they cease to be reskins. It's not rocket science...

The reason I said "group of 3s" is that those are easy to learn and remember. Start adding more and stuff gets complex. We shouldn't have people have to dive into the wiki shield page at 2* to try to figure out what shield they should make for 5*. They aren't invested enough in the game yet. It's why they're using cobalt armor.

Again, the gunner update introduced so many new armors and lines. Looking at what you can make is super confusing. However, they still fall under the current system we have, that is - Defense, Status, Combat. Imagine if every 5* armor and helmet had a special ability tagged onto it.
But none of these sets added any new upgrades to the table. They don't make you explode into a status cloud on death. They just are armor.
I believe that shields can just keep being shields. They defend against attacks. The system I suggested makes players able to test out what they like at lower stars and learn how to make it play into their playstyle.

What I'm saying is, make shields into a class system instead of making every shield its own special snowflake. I'd rather pick from 3 shield choices instead of 20+ shield-end abilities.

... As for parrying, it still blocks attacks. You still have a functional "shield". It just counter-attacks at close range. Imagine it being like an inverse mecha knight shield (i.e., blocks melee attacks best).

Thu, 02/12/2015 - 18:23
#26
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
Reskins

The whole idea of reskin is what i want to move away from. Even if they have the same stats and function the same way in term of statistic, they do not have to be the exact weapon with the exact abilities. By just adding something different, they would become their own individual gear. So by adding these abilities i gave them, they would become their own gear plus the ability to function the same way as the gear it is based on. So, i do not see why a reskin cannot be different from its original component.

I understand how we as players can get confused, but when i started sk, i did not even once try to look down the line at how i would look like and my abilities at 5 star. Some players could play differently and want to know what is down the line, but i was so captivated by the game play that i only looked at the statistics on the gear when it met the challenge at hand. The way i see it, things might get confusing at 5 star, but that is how it is suppose to be from a game that is suppose to grown from being very simple to get getting complex the deeper you go into it. The complexity is a good addition in my opinion where the basis of the simple part of the game is shield and attack and the complexity of the game is weapon's abilities and shield abilities. So i do not see complex as a negative addition if it can add more depth to the game.

Thu, 02/12/2015 - 22:14
#27
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Reskin means a very specific term.

So, i do not see why a reskin cannot be different from its original component.
Because then it ceases to be a reskin.

Any limited-time item or one locked behind a paywall without a a F2P counterpart is a bad move. Mixmaster was bad. Celestial Sabre and Shield were bad. Power Mitt is technically bad, however other things are superior anyways so it's not as bad as others.
However, node shields and swords, cleavers, the summer splash items, scout/recon shield... All of those are reskins and can technically be acquired for free.

It is a bad game design to lock certain items behind a paywall that have specific boosts to them. I am unhappy with the items I stated earlier, as they are more than reskins. Event-based items are okay because they make you play the game (although the kat event should have some recipe changes IMO), but promo ones? A big fat no.

I'm against special abilities on shields. Written on paper is seems cool, but in actuality it would create gaps between players moreso than there already are, and in general just make selecting your shield less of a "I want to defend against this" in favor of "I want this special ability".
Shield classes allow choices. There's an element of this already, sort of. If I'm in an ice fiend level and have my gorgomega and dread skelly shield, I can choose between an upgraded shield bash in exchange for movement speed. In a shield class scenario, I would choose between a heavyweight or a lightweight shield. In a special abilities scenario, I would choose whichever one had the best special ability. For a fiend level, with your changes, I would choose gorgomega because the other one is specialized towards undead.

Why is this bad?

Because now I have a specific shield for a specific situation and it might not even be optimal. Moving slow against fiends can be a death wish, but I would want that sweet extra hits ability. I would then keep using this shield in all levels because it has the 'best' ability out of my shields.
People use the swiftstrike because of its inherent ASI boost. People use BTS because of its damage boost. They don't used them for defense. By adding special abilities to shields, you strip them of their defense values and instead paste their special abilities onto them.

Now you might think "I wouldn't do that". Sure, you might not, but certainly a large number of players would. A simple class system allows for playstyles to adjust to their favorite shield type, and have various choices. It also encourages Three Rings to make more shields per class so we can have a wide variety of status resistance/damage resistance per playstyle. Creating a "special power" system not only discourages Three Rings from making actually new and unique F2P shields, but instead encourages more paywall shields with unique abilities.

TL;DR - Reskins are not palette swaps. They are copied functions, and changing that makes your item a completely new unique item, which ruins the whole "reskin" tidbit. Special abilities are bad for game design and essentially makes less variety in shields. Look at the "special ability" shields we already have and tell me players use those for defense with a straight face. Special abilities paired with new reskin terminology = RIP, F2P gear collectors.

Sun, 02/15/2015 - 13:10
#28
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
well..

@Fangel:

Well i'm sorry, but if i see the description of an item that says it's optimal to use in this situation and it was derived from that specific monster, then it should have an ability to deal with that specific monster or an ability that matches it's affinity. So if that 5 star skelly shield were brought to fight against devilites, it would be far less effective then a shield that has more of a general defensive ability. Why is that? Because it was made from using undead creatures and made to defend against general shadow creatures. But sense it derived from the undead, its ability should match that specific monster type. I wont give an undead shield ability to face a devilite or a gremlin, just doesn;t make sense for it to be able to have that ability when its origin was derived from undead monsters.

Also, just because a shield has an ability for that specific scenario, doesn't mean i will always be bringing that shield with me. For example, that danger mission name Ghosts in the Machine where i have to face undead, but with a mix of construct monsters. I would not bring the skelly shield with me mainly because the construct there would make the shield break too fast sense the shield does not defend against that monster type. Or if i was going into the danger mission Grinchlin Assault!, I would not always bring the heater shield with me. Giving shields abilities would make some players choose shields base on ability, but i do not see this as making the game have more "it would create gaps between players". I see this as having the items be even more unique by giving them an ability that shows a bit of its origin/history. I feel it gives them more flavor where the same as most weapon items in the game, gives them an ability that emphasizes there origin.

Here is an example, the way the fang of vog not only have a chance to put monsters on fire on it's normal attack but can put them on fire on its charge attack. Why would i want that sword to put things on fire, because its origin is from a fire beast/monster. It make sense to give it that ability. Another exmaple, the Obsidian Crusher. Why put tentacles on the obsidian crusher bomb and not just have it the exact animation as the graviton bomb, because the tentacles add flavor to the gear showing its history where it cam fro the Shroud of the Apocrea mission.

What i want to do is give these flavor a meaningful impact in the game play like the fang of vog and less of a visual non-impact flavor like the obsidian crusher bomb. The way i see it, even if a shield has an ability that matches that scenario, it does not mean someone will always be bringing that weapons/gear to that fight if they feel another gear is good enough for the situation that player is facing.

Reskins for me is a waste of creation time. Why create a gear that is an exact copy of another gear but change the skin. Well the reason is obvious, it's to get players to spend money to get that new skin for the exact weapon that they might already have. But the way i see it, instead of just creating a reskin, why not add one small change that will make that weapon a modified version of the original weapon/gear it is based on. I am willing to accept this gear behind a pay wall as long as that change is not exponentially greater then all other gear in the game. The mix master was a bad gear to put behind a pay wall just because it's an entirely new weapon that has new bullet path projectile behavior and even use to have a glitchy perk where the bullets went through solid objects. Other weapons like the node shield and Mighty Great Cleaver is not a bad gear to put behind a pay wall because like you said they function the exact same way as the other weapons. But for me, if those gears had some of the abilities i have mentioned above or if they even had a different charge attack like the scissor blade instead of spinning around like the Leviathan Blade, instead opened up the scissor and did a large clip cut in front of that players point of view would be a great addition which i am willing to accept behind a pay wall because those abilities i described isn't exponentially better then other gear in the game. It functions in a balanced way and even if it is an entirely new gear, it is not overpowered like the mix master was. I know for most games it is bad game design and i also think it is bad game design to put content that is good content behind a pay wall when it is a free to play game, but i am willing to accept this is just another way game companies try to bring in the money and i am willing to accept it as part of the game as long as it does not go over the threshold and become overpowered.

So yes i do want to move away from the idea of having reskin in games and instead create modified variation of the original gear that has a balanced new function giving that item a bit of it's own variant history but coming from the same origin. (Like how the Celestial Saber is a reskin of the Leviathan Blade, yet has a moderate stun ability as a variant function)

Tue, 02/17/2015 - 17:05
#29
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Well that's what I needed to hear.

You may not like reskins being exactly reskins, but that's why they're reskins and not new items. The little tidbits of "lore" that are put on weapons are just so we have something pretty to read. For example, the permafroster doesn't actually make enemies stay frozen forever, even if that's what its description says. They thaw out, like any other freeze infliction. It's just fun flavor text to make the weapon seem more "legendary" than it actually is. Obsidian items deal poison and take a more visually strange route, but it is new gear because it deals poison, not because it has tentacles everywhere.

Reskins are literally just reskins. If you want new gear behind a paywall, which is what you are saying, then use those terms instead of reskin. Terms will get confusing otherwise.

You mention that you wouldn't bring a dread skelly shield into ghosts in the machine, but with your ability, it would be a good place. You simply let the constructs break your shield then fight them and the undead monsters ignore you. But see what I'm getting at? The special ability that the shield gives me makes me weigh it against, say, grey owlite or crest of almire, which are definitely better shields to bring to such a mission. I shouldn't be bringing a freeze/poison resist shield to a level with shock in it unless I have no shock-resistant shield.

Also, at the end of the day, I would take a dread skelly shield to both poison fiends and poison undead because I have no other choice for shadow/poison shields. I should be wanting a dread skelly shield to deal with shadow and poison, not for letting it break so undead monsters ignore me (although that sort of thing would make UFSC different for sure).

Tue, 02/17/2015 - 17:19
#30
Leekcoco's picture
Leekcoco

What ability would SSB have? If theoretically it doesn't have one, and the other shields do, I will still bring SSB to everything because I'd rather have universal ASI High over any of these additional effects without going through the trouble of remembering them all. Makes no difference to most of the playerbase who can do FSC blindfolded and backwards. I'm just not seeing the point. Sorry.

Wed, 02/18/2015 - 15:15
#31
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
well..

@Fangel:

I would rather the devs work on new gear instead of creating artistic reskins that are just for the pay to play players. For me, as long as those pay to play players are willing to trade with us, then that i another form of trade to gain those weapons. The whole point of reskins should be changed to creating alternate versions of existing weapons that pay to play players can get.

Well just as ai said, i wouldn't be bringing dread skelly shield to the ghost in the machine mission because i would want a shield that gives me a universal attack ability boost then a shield that is meant for shielding. For example, if the barborous thorn shield gave me an attack boost in all my weapons, i might consider it more then the skelly shield cause i would favor that instead of the more defensive ability dread skelly shield.

About the i have no other choice besides the shadow/poison defense dread skelly shield, that is because the game is so limited with shadow gear choices. If there was another shield that defended against shadow that was 5 star besides the dread skelly and crest of almire, then we would not be forced with only those shields. So until the game expands, we are forced with what we have.

@Leekcoco:

Swiftstrike buckler for me feels like it already has a good ability, but sense the other shields like the barborous thorn shield already has a flavor text ability from my original point, then i may as well suggest something that meets its quality. Let me see, How about upon shield bash, the player can keep charging as long as the shield has health, the shield will take much less amount of energy to use bash then other shields and the player can also turn during the bash. I wonder if that is over powered? Well, in my opinion it might be a slight over powered, but that is for the developers to decide if they even consider this idea at all.

Well the point of giving shields abilities is not to give players more power or an attack boost which it does hahaha. But that is not the point. The point is to give gear itself their perks, their unique factors that sets them apart from each other. So even if you have a normal defensive shield like the ancient plate shield and i have an all normal defensive shield like the omega shell, both of these shields would be very different from each other not just by their visual appearance, but by how they function. Even though their statistics are very similar, they way players use them and the way they behave will bring new interesting play style to the game. So this way, the game will be even more diverse then it appears from a face front value. This is what i really want the game to become, what i really want to see. Diversity even among gear that looks like they function exactly the same like the Leviathan Blade and Cold Iron Vanquisher, they will have unique functions that set them apart like a different charge attack or these ability perks that i have just suggested.

Wed, 02/18/2015 - 15:37
#32
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Well there are more.

There are other 5* shadow shields, and one of them is locked behind a paywall. The other behind an event time-wall. The latter is more okay, but you're more or less asking for more of the first one. Is that shield all that useful? Not really, as it has no status resist. But is it unique? Yes! And it shouldn't be, because there's a very limited supply of such items and most players will never be able to use it. Adding a special ability onto such an item would be a big insult to players who are not lucky or rich. That is not the way to go about designing a fair game, especially when it's already been defined what is good and bad decisions.
The community as a whole is more or less against the whole mixmaster way of going about things. Locking (limited) content behind a (limited) paywall is bound to create hostility.

As of right now, each shield is useful for it's specific situation. Let's say you don't have a gorgomega and only dread skelly and a crest of almire. You're going up against normal fiends, which can induce stun. Under a shield class system you choose the shield which fits your playstyle (lightweight or medium). Under an abilities system, you choose the shield with the better abilities, ignoring the class system also implemented entirely.

Leekcoco gave a great example of how many players will view this system: "Does it change my shield? No? Good. Continue to use swiftstrike."

The shield abilities will not add to the shields. It will entirely replace them. A class system will not replace any shield. When the abilities are what makes the shield (swiftstrike in tier 3, BTS in elemental/shadow levels), it stop being a shield and instead an accessory. The second half of your suggestion makes every shield an accessory instead of a shield.
Plus if there are only 3 universal classes, each with a class ability, it will be easy to remember and make each class a "shield class" instead of each shield an "accessory for the left hand of our knights".

Sat, 02/21/2015 - 23:36
#33
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
Accessory!?

Accessory!? Do i still use my shield to block? Yes! Does my shield follow the class system i suggested? Yes! So if i still use my shield to block and it still follows the rules of the class system, then the abilities are what we call an EXTRA. And if it is an extra, then it will just add onto what is already there. Doesn't swiftstrike buckler's ability boost add onto what the shield can do which is to block? Yes! Doesn't barborous thorn shield's ability add onto what it usually do which is to block? Yes! Then how can it be an accessory if we use it for its function? I don't know, but fangel says it is.

Anyway, fangel, you may say that if a tool which has become multipurpose would suddenly not be used for what it was intended to be used for, but what i see is that now not only can i use that tool for what it is intended, but i can use it for so much more because of its new multipurpose uses. What was a computer originally created to use for? Calculation, i think. What can it be use for now? Many, Many things from calculating mathematical formulas, to predicting astronomical objects, and many many more.

Tue, 02/24/2015 - 11:37
#34
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Okay look...

People do not use the swiftstrike buckler to block damage. They use it for that ASI. Why? Because they will dodge the attacks thrown at them.
People use the barbarous thorn shield because they get more sword damage, not because they plan to block a bunch of hits with it.

These are two examples of the current game meta, and how gear is used. Half of your suggestion is making all shields be judged on their additional power instead of their shield power.
I'm sure you've heard the argument of "I can dodge hits so defense doesn't matter and I don't have to shield, so my shield doesn't matter. Therefore, I'll take full chaos/black kat and a swiftstrike". What I'm saying is that people will use that same logic for these shields as well. The players who have reached end-game and decided on their playstyle (i.e., they're in damage boosting gear and a swiftstrike) will know full well if any shield is worth making. Does the shield provide extra offense capabilities? If yes, does it outperform current shields? If yes, take it, and it is now the new meta shield.
I'm not saying we can't still block hits with our shields. My playstyle isn't a dodge one, so I still use shields to block. However, I would hate to have to choose between crest of almire and dread skelly shields for firestorm citadel because maybe I don't want that aggro on me, but that shield is clearly superior in terms of defensive capabilities. I'm weighing defense against abilities, which is something I shouldn't have to do.
With shield classes it isn't so much "i have to use dread skelly because i dislike aggro ability", it's more a style of preference that don't add onto anything unless you're actually using your shield as a shield.

The moment you start having shield "abilities" extend their reach beyond the shield, they stop being a shield. Shield "abilities", if at all implemented, would have to solely stay within the defense of the shield.

I'm still of the idea that shield abilities on each and every "final" shield is not a smart way to make shields more unique. If anything, it turns picking out your shield less of a "oh, I don't like shock and fire from constructs, I'll get grey owlite!", but rather "i don't like shock and fire from constructs, but look, the darkfang shield absorbs shock and fire attacks!", and then severely disappointing a large number of knights because there are only ~7 darkfang shields in existence, even less on active knights, and now it is no longer a 4* owlite reskin.

I'm still in support of the other half of your suggestion however. Class shields are a wonderful idea, but need to have at least one of each damage resistance type per class because preference.

TL;DR - Know that quote from the incredibles? "When everyone's super ... no one is". Yeah, making every shield have a unique special ability makes shields not unique nor special. Instead it makes the best ability "win" instead of spicing up the clockworks.

Wed, 02/25/2015 - 18:10
#35
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
★[Enters, shrouded in anarchy]★

"People use the barbarous thorn shield because they get more sword damage, not because they plan to block a bunch of hits with it."
- That SHOULD be the case, but BTS can also block a bunch of hits. It has defence fitting of a 5* shield + the bonus.

Wed, 02/25/2015 - 20:36
#36
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
Point of view

The way i see it, shields are for blocking hits period. If i press the x button or whatever key i press to activate my shield, then once the shield is activated, it should block my character from exterior damage as the shield was intended and created for that purpose. Any attack speed increase or ability the shield comes with is an extra bonus. If players chooses a shield not for it's blocking ability, but for it's bonus add ons, then that is just that players preference. I doubt the developers created anything permanent in the game specifically because they think that is what players will choose and that is how they will act. I think the developers chooses what to create based on what holes they see they can fill up in the game and what they see players have interest in the forums like what we are talking now.

One good example is pets or more character defining accessories. Those were suggested here in the forums and from my perspective, the developers added them into the game because they thought they could get revenue from them and it would allow players to be able to further customize there characters. The game doesn't need pets not does it need those accessory customize like the eye emotions. But adding it onto the game allowed it to be more appealing to most of the player community.

The same way that the game does not need to have gear abilities, but adding it further solidifies a particular customize gameplay. For example, most armor sets have a low ability boost on each individual gear, and when you wear them all together that ability gets boosted to the most it can get. For example, most wolver armor gear get a melee attack power boost. By having the helm and armor on your character, that ability which is melee attack power increase is boosted further. Why have this in the game? The game does not need to have this stack ability, but from my point of view, it has to to emphasize a particular play style.

This is the same effect i hope the shield abilities to create. To emphasize the origin/history of that shield and to give it a unique shine/path that gives it a different flavor from similar shields like it. You say that ""When everyone's super ... no one is"", and that is fine. Everyone can be shiny, but the point was not to make one person stand above the rest. The point was to show the different properties a gear can have from another similar gear so that a player can have more choices. Cause right now, i feel the choices we are making are more aesthetic/fake choices then actual gameplay impactful choices. An example i used before, tell me the different properties between the ancient plate shield, Grand Tortoise and the Omega Shell. You can try to argue that one has slightly more normal defense while the other one has more shield health , but the difference is so minuscule that you would need a magnifying glass to see it. While if my ability suggestion was implemented, you can clearly point out that one shield has this ability while the other one has this other ability.

So Even if only 1 to 7 people had the darkfang shield which gave those players a very unique ability, the point is not to make things fair for everyone by giving everyone a dark fang shield not is it to make everyone have super powers. The point is to differentiate every gear in the game so players make meaningful impactful gameplay choices sense that is where we as players actually get to have choices. The story does not allow us choices cause the whole story is linear. The arcade is all temporary choices that leave non-lingering choices cause the player will just do another gate grind and will have a good chance to hit the same gates he hit on the last run. While gameplay itself during the moment the player is fighting is where the choices they make shine cause the choices in gear you choose to take with you in that level will help determine 50% to 70% whether you make it to the end of that level while 30% to 50% lies on that player's skill and knowledge of the challenge to come.

Sense gameplay is where our choices really shine, then we need to actually emphasize those choices. Right now the choices we have to make is base on the damage type and status ailments of the opposition for defense and damage type of attacking gear for offense. These choices are 4 types of damage types and 7 types of status ailments well 6 sense sleep is no longer currently a monster ailment. This means that we have around 24 choices from attack type and 24 choices for defense types when choosing gear. But if we were to add abilities to the gear, the choices we could make would theoretically jump exponentially from 24 to an unknown gargantuan number. And if were were to implement this ability system not only on gear, but also on monsters, then the game would become a vast variety of things to see, do and study.

I understand that for a new player, it would seem like a crazy confusing mess, but as long as they can stop looking at the big picture and the mountain of information of things, and just look at the grain of sand taking step by step, then no matter how large and different the game becomes, they will still be able to move forward as long as the game/developer create a good guide system like the tutorial and the missions. The arcade should symbolize the world of cradle that we as players can go to explore and see new random things that do not follow a path. While the missions should represent the direct path that we can take to get stronger and learn more about the games lore and system. Right now the mission system is doing a great job at guiding the new players and showing them what the game is about. While the arcade system that symbolizes the world were in cradle is so small in variety of things that inhabit the world were on and does not from my point of view symbolize a deep vast world that allows players to explore, dig deep, and set roots in. I do not think my ability system would solve the problem in monster variety/gear variety but i believe it is a great step forward that goal.

The world is suppose to be a big confusing place filled with marvelous, dangerous, odd things like weird devices that perform unique functions. I hope spiral knights arcade can represent this ideal where new and random things happen from weather phenomenon to powerful monsters that wander from place to place.

Thu, 02/26/2015 - 10:45
#37
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Well that topic changed quickly.

I understand the want to spice up the game a lot more, but I don't think a shield change as drastic as the one you suggest here is the key. Class armors are their own section of gear, separate from the defensive armors, and lastly we have the specialist armors. The way they spice up the clockworks is you need a little bit of everything to perform well universally. What I'm saying is adding that class system to shields is enough as is to warrant a big enough change to the clockworks that isn't as confusing as the gunner update gear names.

The end goal is to get people to craft more gear so they can have more fun and also be prepared for situations better. In this case, shields should be more interesting, and players should be given free shields of each type (plate/defender/proto) early on to decide which one suits their playstyle the best. It's a sort of tutorial to how shields work and actively encourage more shield usage. The number of times I've seen newer players fail to raise their shield is astounding.

Bottom line is that adding so much variation in the game only makes it harder to comprehend, and Spiral Knights has always been a "quick to get into and play" sort of game. It's why the ready room was added so you would load faster, and you can access missions/arcade from anywhere.
Shields don't need to be as complex as gunner update gear. Before the update we still had gunners in the gunner armor. Now we have gunners in the same armor with buffed weapons. A shield class system will add variation by adding enough that you want to choose between different shields, but not enough that you feel obligated to bring one shield over another. Instead of buffing all shields so that they're on the same level of swiftstrike and BTS, split the shields up into groups that promote different playstyles. A gunner may prefer lighter shields, a bomber heavier ones, with a swordie being right in the middle.

Fri, 02/27/2015 - 12:25
#38
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
Right now..

@Fangel:

" but not enough that you feel obligated to bring one shield over another."

Right now, we already feel obligated to bring one gear over the next. We already feel obligated to bring 5 star gear to tier 3 then bringing any other gear. The game is already base on a power scale level where one type of gear namely 5 star gear is more valued once attained then any other type of gear 1 to 4 star. So introducing this system does not really create such a huge change that your thought process and how you play the game would change.

Well, i have said all i can say on this topic, so lets a agree to disagree. It was a nice chat, but i would like to move on to another topic like to see if the abilities i gave the shields fit there origin/history and flavor descriptions. And well the whole balance part can be done by the developers sense balance is more of a theory when discussed on the forums and not something we can implement and test that is already in the game. Well, i'll start the topic tomorrow to see if anyone is interested...

And remember, i did not say this was the key to solving the much needed space in sk, but i believe it is a step in the right direction.

Also to elaborate on my last reply conclusion, when i say sk needs to have more marvelous things, the marvelous things can be walking through a level that has lots of thick vegetation and suddenly finding a big flower garden, or walking though a robotic/gremlin level and suddenly finding a robotics lab filled with incomplete robots. These things express the world more less in code programming and a lot more in graphical artistic value. And going further then just graphics, having weird plants that we can harvest, or spots that we can mine for other things besides the minerals, or even finding unique devices that unlock a new cool function for us like finding a device that unlocks the map for us which the map can also get damaged and can be repaired in our lab. Cause i can argue that the map is not something that is needed, but is there to make things a lot more convenient for us. Things like this make the world feel like it's flowing and less static in my opinion.

When i say odd things, i mean finding sentient beings who do not engage in the the battle that is going on between us and the gremlins and other monsters cause they have the power to abstain themselves like the tortodrones or strangers, or an even stringer being that is only using cradle as a temporary stay as it can move through planes and go from world to world. These are odd, but interesting things sense it can bring new lore or news or forboding events to come like a prophet and can even have add effects on the world like causing it to rain in haven while it is in our world or have haven be filled with darkness. Other odd things can be a waterfall of falling crystals that shine brighter and reverses and can only be found on the treasure room level. Just odd interesting things that is not directly related to our story of leaving the planet, but is just there because it's part of the world.

When i say dangerous things, i mean a particular sort of monsters that can wander from level to level and can randomly be found at any level. This monster would still be restricted by tier like tier 1 ,2 , or 3, but has abilities on the level of a mini-boss. Other dangerous that we already have which is pretty cool are traps like barbwire, fire pit ect, but these dangerous environmental things can be expanded to a theoretical plant that we can harvest, or geysers in a rocky area level, and much more dangerous things like radioactive meteor rocks from the slime levels that burns in intensity and explode when inflicted with damage.

Simply, the game has so many room to fill cause right now it seems too small to represent a world that is linked to many dimensions from its description " containing worlds within worlds". I feel the amount of options would be fine if the worlds were more diverse and less similar. But sense the similarities follows from one gate to another, things become to predictable and boring as the player starts to grind. Not that we would suddenly not get use to any changes as time goes on, but if that change that was a created was a random pattern generated level where one level could have 10 to 25 variations, then it would be much harder to predict and things would stay challenging. These repeating patterns could be similar to the aesthetis orbit aura that repeats a same rotating pattern, but much more divers-ed.

Fri, 02/27/2015 - 12:25
#39
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Ehh...

Not exactly. If you're looking at defense, yes, 5* gear is desirable. However if you cannot afford a 5* black kat helmet, but can get a full 3* set of black kat gear, then you might prefer that over 5* gear. Why? Because of the damage boost/MSI.

This game doesn't really punish glass cannons enough, that's why I bring up the fact that most end-game players should be striving towards class cannon gear. If you're wearing your armor for defense then great, good job. However, most end-game players are wearing their gear for status immunity or extra combat effectiveness. This includes shields, and since end-game players will be in the 5* range (which is when these abilities kick in) they'll be the one who are supposed to be affected by it, but won't even feel it all that much. Newly-end game players will be the ones affected by these abilities, however the likelihood of them actually sticking around in the game enough to care is pretty small because now they don't know what to do. You want to change the meta, however all this suggestion does is shift it. Well, I mean, the specialized shield bit. Classes are still a brilliant idea.

The reason 5* gear is so sought after is because it has the highest bonuses. With the introduction of black kat hoods, that is not the case anymore, at least with the helmet. Damage bonus of high plus MSI of low on a 3* item is enough to warrant bringing that over a valkyrie helm to a fiend level, even in tier 3. If the dark thorn shield gave as much sword damage bonus as the barbarous thorn shield, people wouldn't make it 5* unless they had to pass hall of heroes with it. There's no point in doing so once you have the max bonuses.

Fri, 02/27/2015 - 14:11
#40
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
WEll..

@Fangel:

One point of bringing a gear to it's 5 star stage is it's aesthetic look, another point is to be recognized as bringing the gear as far it can go from other players, and third is to have the whole set match with each other with the feeling of completeness. And yes, the stat boost is also a big motivation to bring it to 5 star gear. Though, in the whole game, if i imagined that a gear would reach it's maximum usability at 4 star, i don;t imagine most players would stop upgrading it because of that if they are dedicated to the game.

Back to what i was saying before about choices, having 24 different choices of gear for offense and defense is too limited in my opinion. I believe having at least 50 offense and defense is a good amount of choices. Oh well, my preference is just different from yours i guess.

Fri, 02/27/2015 - 15:13
#41
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Was playing devil's advocate there

I love 5* gear myself because I don't have to upgrade it anymore. However, as I said, if you're using the gear for its stat boost (which is why people use chaos/black kat) then you aren't looking into defense. Higher tier end-game players will often be using stat boosting gear over defense.
Making 5* gear for costumes is different waters entirely. It's why costumes are able to be worn over armor. It's why cosmetics are great because they do nothing to alter how you play and instead let you look how you want while you play how you want. This is why I'm perfectly on board with reskins being only cosmetic, but we've gone over those waters already and don't need to start splashing them around everywhere again.

As for the choices, we got ~72(?) armors in the gunner update of varying star levels. We have every defense with every status with every monster family covered. So many choices... Yet gunners still seem to be sticking to their old gear. Why? Well, new stuff is confusing and hard to get. And all these things are just reworked from gear we already have, nothing new introduced necessarily other than models.

Having too many choices is not always a good thing. However, having too little choices is worse. What we need to have happen is for every item we have now to be viable. Once everything is on an equal level, that's when new stuff can be introduced.
This is more the balancing act in me speaking anyways. We're sort of leaning off topic at this point as we've both covered our own sides, so it's probably better to not talk about how little armors and helmets we have unless we're leaning back towards shields.

Fri, 02/27/2015 - 21:15
#42
Xxpapaya's picture
Xxpapaya
The papaya has a comment

Okay, the ideas are wonderful, +1 for that.

However, I feel like some of the changes will make the capability of certain shields rather...limited. For instance, your suggestions for the Exalted Honor Guard, Omega Shell and the Heater Shield make them quite flexible and versatile. They can almost always be used, regardless of the stage. However, a few shields, such as the Grey Owlite, seem to be much more limited. Yes, it's nice having a portable candle with you to ward off the Grimalkins, but it's usefulness hits nil when you are in any other stage.

Sun, 03/01/2015 - 14:55
#43
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
Yeah exactly..

@Xxpapaya:

Exactly what i was thinking about. Some of my ideas are too focus towards that weapons origin/history and does not express it's exact current use as of now like the grey owlite shield which is useful against elemental attacks, but has a history from the old owlite levels before the owlites fell and got taken over by the undead. So i need to think about an ability that can combine it's history which represent flavor description/origin that represents its statistics from where it started and as it evolved to its current 5 star use. Most of the abilities i thought of where all made very quickly at the moment and i did not think too much on them sense i wanted to quickly make the post. But now that we can discuss it, i think a more versatile ability that represents that shields history and current use needs to be implemented so that it does not get under use/neglected from other shields. We can measure a popularity pole from how versatile a shields stats and ability is.

Let me see. I will just write some of my thoughts as i am trying to invent a new grey owlite ability. The shield owlite originates as a normal/elemental defense shield with shock and fire status resistant and has never change from those statictics besides gaining more elemental and normal defense as it evolved through the star levels. Its history throughout each of the star levels describes the shield from a symbol that represents the now extinct owlite race to a powerful tool that empowers the righteous path. The word righteous can be misinterpreted or aligned to something holy or a tool that is made from the heavens to serve their purpose. So i can interpret this shield's ability as an ability that would represent the owlite race which would represent knowledge and wisdom sense being a magician usually means gaining knowledge of the world around us and the wisdom to know how to use these abilities and from it's stats which defend against elemental damage and fire and shock status, i would have to make the ability something that is close to a holy tool from the heavens that inflicts harm unto its enemies sense that what vengeance means.

owlite shield from wiki:

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Grey_Owlite_Shield

Okay from the information i have taken from wiki, i can now try to invent multitude of abilities and we can try to see which one fits. And the ability that is invented has to be an ability that can be used when met with certain conditions or can be used right away and does not overpower the current gear we already have in the game. Although the whole over powered portion will al be judged theoretically sense it is not something we can test out. So, basically it counts as less then 5% of importance in concept wise the developers decide what is overpowered base on player reaction and usability inside the game.

1. Upon shield bashing a healing monster, the monster would inhibit strong shock and fire status instead of healing the monster it targets for heal. This impulse will last for as long as other statuses depending on tier.

2. Upon killing a monster with shield bash, that monsters body is infused with a dead owlite soul which reforms that monster's body into the image of the long past owlite race (Which we don;t know what they look like sense we have never gotten an illustration). This fairy monster has now become an aid that follows you around like the robotic knights that help you. It has low health and has taken the defense stats of the shield which would be normal/elemental defense. And has taken the status resistant of the shield as its attack ability. The owlite fairy can be reformed to either as a fire elemental or shock elemental for it offensive power. This means that these sprites can not directly attack like the robotic knights and aids, and can only set/inflict opposing monsters with the fire status of shock status. There can be a maximum of 5 to 10 of these monsters out at the same time and they float behind the player while the player is moving and orbit the player when the player is stationary. When the shield is broken, all of the elementals that were alive at that time will all be absorbed into the shield and there total amount of health will be used to rejuvenate the shield health. If th developers do not want to give these elementals the form of the former alive owlites, they can give them the form of these lost soul, but with a gold color/glow and with the shock or fire aura depending on its attack power.

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Lost_Soul

3. Upon blocking an elemental attack that has shock or fire status infused in it, that attack will be reflected like a mirror where it originated. The shield still takes damage from the attack and knock back and other effects if part of the attack. The attack that is reflected is 50% less in damage. Also upon shield bumping a monster, that monster will have it's attack cut in half if it attack with elemental damage. This status infliction last as long as other normal status like shock or fire.

Well that is what i could think of, what do you think? Does any of them fit?

Mon, 03/09/2015 - 19:04
#44
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
transistor

the abilities for the shields i came up with wad thinking what if those abilities could work like the abilities in transistor work in concert. Like how how on ability can be moded by another ability. And i am not talking about simple mods liek attack increase and such, i am talking about functionality. Imagine if a shields ability could be moded to have an new added function or a whole new function if another passive ability was euiped. These passive abilities can be gained from the armors we equipped. Besides the shields abilities, imagined if all our offensive gear like bombs anbd swords had abilities that could be moded by the armor passive abilities increasing the coplexity of every combination we can make in the game. This would really improve gameplay options to a whole new level. Oh well, just another if theory. Just putting it out there to see who is interested.

Fri, 07/03/2015 - 02:21
#45
Ed-Efnek
+1

Nice idea like it. Please loook my idea too for a better gameing http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/110755

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