Spiral Knights - This is why the population is decreasing.

This is why the population is decreasing.

20 replies [Last post]

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 01:42

Xephyris

In short: the beginning of the game does nothing to get new players to stay, even though the rest of the game is overall well made and very fun.

So I'll start with a story. When I first started the game I got a friend of mine to play with me. I remember first reaching the rescue camp, not knowing what I was doing, having the freedom to do whatever I want, and exploring the weapons bought from Quince. I could stay in the rescue camp however long I wanted, doing the basic elevator and buying things from Quince. I genuinely wanted to keep playing and discover more about the game. My friend was the same. We were hooked on the game in the first 10 minutes. And when we reached haven we were amazed; all this cool gear! Things to explore! I could do things how I wanted and explore and visit the arcade and do random elevators.

That was ages ago, fast track to now where I'm trying to get another friend to play. I made a character for them and a new one for myself and we set off. The difference was huge. Now the first 10 minutes of gameplay was filled with cringe-worthy (unskippable) dialogue which seemed to be aimed at 8-year-olds, clunky animations, random characters I didn't care about, and missions and tutorials which restricted gameplay. I had to drag my friend through, promising "don't worry, just keep playing and it gets better I promise", all the while they were saying "this is stupid". No longer was there any interest in continuing, and the mission system does not make the game more fun in any way. And I really missed Quince from the rescue camp.

So why is the player population decreasing? It's because the beginning of the game is painful to play through. It consists of slogging through boring missions, many of which are just clunky dialogue boxes or missions plagued with them (I'm looking at you, sprite missions). Exploring a new game is fun and interesting. Having your hand held through every step of the way and being directed a certain way is not. Don't give me gear I don't want in missions. Let me look at a merchant's stuff and decide for myself what I want to buy.

To fix this, (somewhat):
- Get rid of all those dialogue boxes that didn't exist before. Don't just make it skippable, get rid of it. Skippable dialogue is annoying dialogue. I have yet to hear a single player tell me they read through all the exposition and story and dialogue.

- Missions are terrible. I know these aren't going to get removed because it would mean a lot of time and effort has gone to waste. But honestly missions just suck. What would be better is if a mission gave you an objective such as 'defeat the Jelly King' and you then had to go run the arcade to do it.

- Fix the rescue camp. Bring back Quince. Bring back the elevator. Get rid of the missions. Get rid of Razwog and Rhendon. The rescue camp is the first opportunity to get players to stay playing. It should showcase the best of what spiral knights has to offer, not the worst. I should not have had to convince my friend to keep playing in the hopes that the game gets better.

Anyway, I know that none of this will happen. These are just my thoughts and it sucks to think that the rescue camp update made it vastly worse not better.

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 06:44

Bopp

response

For anyone who hasn't had the patience to read all of that, the complaint is that the initial missions are boring, especially because of clunky, unskippable dialogue.

Xephyris, your points are reasonable, but consider these counter points:

I have yet to hear a single player tell me they read through all the exposition and story and dialogue.

Now you have, because I have read all of the dialogue in the game. And there are players out there who are really into lore, who have discussed the entire plot of the artifact in detail. But you're probably right that less than 10% of players read through this dialogue in detail.

Missions are terrible.

You can still play most of your time in this game in the Arcade if you like. You need missions only for the Hall of Heroes clearances. Of course, you have to do all of the missions to get up to there. But you can plow through them quickly if you already have the level of gear for the clearance that you're trying to get. Certainly you are under no obligation to grind missions.

Fix the rescue camp. Bring back Quince.

I do not understand your fascination with Quince. It's okay to have a personal nostalgia for him. But he's not going to make or break a new player's attitude to the game.

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 07:26

Abelisk

The end

It's gonna happen... :(

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 08:40

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

What is bad is that the tutorial system gave a false sense of linearity. You're given a bunch of weapons to start with, but they're mostly just progressively better. You're never directly given a list of gear to pick from (which Quince used to supply) in the Rescue Camp. This chosing of gear is one of the funnest parts. (Like chosing your Pokemon.) Why are we not letting new players see what they're getting?

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 12:19

Fehzor

I wrote a suggestion to fix this issue over the course of the entire game, but didn't address the tutorial system as you have here. One possibie fix for this early game would be to include a temporary gate, such as the one that was removed, in the tutorial section and have completing it unlock the missions for Razwog and all of that business. Alternatively, Razwog and the artifact could be moved to a further point in the game, as removing them would be a waste of perfectly good content. All of this would definitely fit with my suggestion, that Three SEGAs will never take.

The one thing I will disagree with is that it isn't making the playerbase "decline", but rather harming the game's ability to keep players invested in the first place. Radiant fire crystals on the other hand, make the playerbase decline as it takes already invested players and penalizes them heavily until they quit the game out of frustration.

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 13:12

Qawaii

LoL the biggest problem is

LoL the biggest problem is lag for EVERYONE.
I'll go with Xephyris as there has to be a SKIP button as i myself dont like those tutorials and sometimes skip it through (if there is an option :/) or i just hit the close button if its too mush long (it gets annoying for sure).
I'm not saying to REMOVE the tutorial but saying that there has to be a button to SKIP it.

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 13:14

Mtax-Forum

There is something true in that. Though I don't feel a big need of change in this for real. Well, tutorials are necessary, but a lot of people are still skipping them. There's no way you would change it and get rid of 'pros' asking "How to feed my sprite????".

First few missions are fairly interesing - Getting into game story with some action. The problem is that missions just after are just boring and not really compatibile with thing players encountered at the very start - Action, twists and explosions.

Conversations in this game are mostly nothing interesing and that's very true - lore hidden deep in game is far more interesing than things we get highlighted. This is actually part that can be changed, since they are not interesing and characters are totally onelayered and trivial. The terrible thing at it is that it's only happeing with knights characters - they're boring. But single antagonists like Herex or Arkus are far more interesing than whole knights crew together, with captives on lead.

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 13:23

Holy-Nightmare

Probably the biggest reasons

Probably the biggest reasons are:

Increasing Lag
Shortening of events and increased grind amount for event
Unbalanced items/gear
Unbalanced PVP
Little interest in young players (easily turned off by how grindy the game is at the beginning)
No new rooms added to the clockworks randomizer. (the latest thing we got was a "make your choice" thing, not that anyone picks the HP)
Extremely slow story development

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 14:14

Abelisk

This image is horrific.
http://steamcharts.com/app/99900#All

If it keeps plunging, the game will shut down...
Steam IS one of the largest Spiral Knights platforms.

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 14:22

Gbot-Vtwo

It may end soon!

Well, OOO's, you better do something. Also If it does go down, how will we all meet up? I want to know that! What site do we meet just in case if it does go down? Should we make a wiki page just incase?

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 14:26

#10

Mtax-Forum

Games doesn't shut so suddenly. Devs usually warn about it month/few before.
But I don't think that low population is big problem for OOO. They make money on promos and they're able to keep this alive.

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 14:44

#11

Gbot-Vtwo

What site?

I know, but how will we meet if the site and game shuts down? Should somebody make a wiki site for SK so we can at least chat?

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 16:56

#12

Skepticraven

↓

@Itsmeandersonlol

Using Mtax-Forum's link to puzzle pirates... Lets make a comparison with steam players:
Puzzle Pirates Steam activity, Puzzle Pirates Official Website.

About 1/10th of the players are steam players.

This brings a very large doubt to you "Steam IS one of the largest Spiral Knights platforms." claim.
There was a survey image that OOO put out awhile ago about SK gameplay stats [such as knights landed, monsters killed, hours played] that I can't seem to find... it would be interesting trying to compare that data with steam's charts.

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 17:53

#13

Flowchart

this? http://wiki.spiralknights.com/File:Spiralstats-fullres.png

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 22:12

#14

Skepticraven

↓

@Flowchart

Yes. That one. It was earlier than I had thought, before steamcharts shows data [but not prior to steam-release of this game]. Not as useful as I had originally hypothesized.

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 22:31

#15

Hexzyle

This is what I've been saying ever since they came out.
Missions should be OPTIONAL.

I stand by my belief with my Mission Veto: I have not completed any mission except for OCH (because it's optional)

@Skepticraven
There was a second one, I think.

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 23:02

#16

Xephyris

Responses

@Bopp While I know that some players do read dialogue, you must admit that a majority of players don't. Also, I didn't communicate this very clearly in the original post but I meant that the starting missions are annoying. After around the snarbolax, missions become better, but I think it still sort of ruins the exploration and sandbox vibe of sk. Lastly, my fascination with quince is basically summed up in Autofire's post. Quince gave players choices of gear rather than spoon feeding them; the more choices a game gives you, the less linear it feels (think pokemon and skyrim, they are hugely popular for that reason). It's not that I want a big stranger merchant named Quince, I just think a merchant of some kind that new players can buy gear from would be good.

@Fehzor I was also thinking that Razwog could be moved to a later part in the game so I agree with you there. Also what I meant by the beginning of the game 'causing a decrease' in population was that most players will naturally stop playing and leave after they've played a long time, and if the birth of new players isn't enough to keep up with this decline, overall population will decline. It's like the ageing population concept; when the birth rate to death rate isn't ideal, you end up with a lot of elderly and a decreasing population. The new players are the future, so we need to make them stick around.

Also, regarding that steam chart.. what the heck happened in August 2013??

Mon, 02/02/2015 - 23:45

#17

Abelisk

Skepticraven: I'd like to ask OOO for a statistic on our players. Puzzle Pirates and Spiral Knights are two different worlds...

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 00:20

#18

Hexzyle

@Xephyris

Also, regarding that steam chart.. what the heck happened in August 2013??

Steam 2013 treasure hunt thingy.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 00:38

#19

Diskthree

@Xephyris

A quick look through the announcements reveals that July 30th was also when that massive update with pets and the forge came in.

Tue, 02/03/2015 - 12:19

#20

Fangel

Hmm.

Personally I read through every dialogue box that was given, but for the most part Kora isn't all that interesting to talk to. Some tutorials have to happen, such as showing you how to make sprite food and how the clockworks work. Sadly, the clockworks aren't really explained much via missions, as the missions are linear.

What I think harms the game in terms of gameplay is that the arcade isn't linear (which is good) but the missions are, yet players are required to play through missions. What happens is that they start missions and get through the first part of the game very quickly and then are stopped suddenly by hall of heroes missions. If missions were put at a more leisurely pace the entire time, players would get more into the game and invest more time into it. Players are never directed towards the arcade and thus don't really know it exists. The fact we have missions that drop players right into boss strata only hurts it more.

I think dialogue to this game is very helpful, however there are many impatient players who won't read anything outside of a speech bubble over another player's head. I think an overall slowdown of the game (like the mist era) would be better than making players more clueless and still frustrated. This doesn't mean re-adding mist, just that the arcade becomes a mandatory entry in every knight's diet with missions being the story progression and the arcade being the "XP/Money grind".

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This is why the population is decreasing.