Spiral Knights - Counter Play! (And why LD sucks)

Counter Play! (And why LD sucks)

35 replies [Last post]

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 13:59

Autofire

Disclaimer: I haven't played LD for over two months, I believe. I'm running off my memory as well as logic. Also, when I say 'I', 'you', 'them', I'm talking generally, assuming that all players are equally skilled. (More or less)

Okay, just saying this because I thought it reaaally addresses the issue of Lock Down. I've been watching Extra Credits lately, and this one is on Counter Play. The gist of it is that mechanics you add must be fun for the people wielding the mechanics as well as those who are getting targeted by those mechanics.

Let's think about...Heart Trinkets. I've said before how bad these are, but now I can put formal terms to them. Basically, let's say I'm a guy with 10 more health then you or her or them. What's this do for me? Well, it opens several new options to me. I can now stand (for a little longer) in your barrage of attacks, and I can probably kill a few more people. Or, if I'm a Striker, I could take those hits and then dash back to the base, and restore all that lost health. This means I can stay in the game more a greater percentage of the match without really being more crafty or skilled.

For those without trinkets, what then? Much like sniping, they have to be incredibly careful how they play, or stick with teammates. (As good as that last solution sounds, it never happens.) This is rather unfair, and reduces what I can do. I can no longer defend my team well, because their players outlive me and/or my buddies. I can no longer sneak up behind someone and 'assassinate' them. Heck, I can't even duel them to the death because they simply have an upper hand. And, if my buddies have trinkets, there is no way I can easily carry as much weight as they can.

In other words, Heart Trinkets causes a disparity between players who have trinkets and those who don't. They are bad for the overall experience. In the end, this is terrible even for those with heart trinkets, because they now have no one to beat up.

Rather than making a great wall of text greater, I will challenge you: Find other issues. Not even come up with solutions. I just want to see how much this community can find.

As one last word, I think that these issues either should be resolved or LD should be dropped, because it really hurts the experience for everyone. For those players who will never even want to play LD, they see the list of people waiting for LD and think "This is an empty game." Need I say more?

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 14:33

Fangel

Going to go ahead and do exactly not what you wanted me to do

Couter Play!
Might want to get an "n" in there. That's an issue I found.

Honestly there are a lot of quick fixes (at least in terms of words) that many have come up with. For the most part it's because trinkets and UVs completely alter the game from an idea of balance to one of paying players win.
However, the solution isn't to "disable trinkets and UVs and AT". Really the fix is to create better alternatives. Give us better trinkets to use in those slots. Make Lockdown-specialized ones for all I care, or just in general shield related ones.

Else changes to the actual trinket could happen. Percentage based would be nice. My thoughts were that they could be percentage based (i.e. 5* gives 33% more health, 4* 27%, 3* 21%, 2* 15%, 1* 9*). Health from heart trinkets would be a paler hue, thus the non-full pip values wouldn't confuse players (also the fact that they increase in size would be good). True love lockets remain a static +6 pips. On top of that add the other trinkets in, such as "shield focus increased" which increases the power of your shield (not shield bar. Think: faster strikers, instant deathmarks, faster healing. In PvE it could be more defense), "shield power increase" (increased shield bar), and "shield recharge increased".

Sorry, I'm not really one to like to sit around complaining when I could be fixing something. Maybe I should try to stay out of this thread now. :\

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 15:13

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Fixed typo. That's embarrasing.

My favorite fix to nearly every issue is just to separate PvE stats from PvP stats. Give things unique effects. For example, DVS needs something special to make up for it not landing every hit. It's not bad in PvE, though. Same with Monster damage buffs.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 15:48

Fangel

True.

The PvP system encourages very specific armors and sets whereas it really puts down others. Almost all defensive sets and specialist sets are put down. I've been a strong supporter of family bonuses being attached to class shields to make that more viable (also make UVs other than ASI and CTR useful), as well as a curse mist bomb (but that's less mandatory. It would just shake up the game's meta for a while because status walkers can no longer be 100%).

There's not too much you can do to make the game super fair unfortunately without bugs all over the place. I honestly believe any changes should be made to the lockdown shields themselves, not other things.

One thing that would make fast weapons extremely viable would be if strikers had invincibility frames removed. Also add flinch resistance to guardian shields.
I can see recons with autoguns being super effective already.

Making PvP stats separate from PvE stats can work but we have a whole lot of gear in the game now that would have to be repurposed for a minigame. Instead, repurpose the minigame so that all the PvE stats are effective under some circumstance. The latter seems like less of a coding/design nightmare.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 17:14

Yvanblo

how about this:

Perhaps the answer is to maintain the current LD and call it 'Open class'. Then create another LD arena that contains the separated PvP, PvE style that has been mentioned so many times, give us a couple sets of pre-set gear and weapons, and call it 'Stock class'

Those that love LD the way it is with their fancy gear, can continue to play in 'Open class', and those of us who have not dedicated thousands of hours to LD, can jump in and have fun in the 'Stock class'.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 21:03

Doctorspacebar

I remember hearing that, in the past, UVs gave items negative effects to counteract the positive effects. Maybe that would be nice. Make them "variants" rather than straight improvements.

Wed, 02/04/2015 - 21:42

Halandin

I think the main problem with

I think the main problem with family bonuses, whether UVs or "natural" to a piece of equipment, is not just getting something like a fiend bonus on a shadow weapon, but that getting say, a fiend bonus on a pierce weapon is useless if you run with higher levels of damage. If family bonuses actually took effect past max damage (the family bonuses might have to be lowered), then I could see a definite use for them. E.g., run full skolver with a snarby shield for max sword damage, and the beast med UV on your sword adds more damage past the "max" damage limit--but only for family bonuses. Might make some stuff too easy though, damage amounts and enemy health might have to be changed around for something like that to work.

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 00:37

Fangel

Well that's the thing

With family bonuses, you choose how you play the game and are not locked into the "chaos/black kat" spectrum many people play in. It would bring in more hybrid-styled thinking. Dragon Scale and Angelic lines would be great anti-striker gears with the right UVs, and one of them doesn't even have negative status resistances.

Instead of making players min-max even more with UVs (which, in turn, creates more Pay 2 Win shenanigans), have them work with the current system. It also means if you're running black kat + chaos as a striker, you can still hit max damage with your gun if you have fiend, slime, and undead low on your gun. You only need a beast or fiend low to be at max damage vs strikers - that's a cheap UV.
This also gives slime max flourishes a purpose.

This is mostly a talk about PvP as far as I can tell. A player in the clockworks should be thinking differently anyways, plus the family bonuses actually do something useful there.

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 08:48

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Hah, well, I guess no one is talking about counter plays. Oh well. Not that it matters. :P

A player in the clockworks should be thinking differently anyways, plus the family bonuses actually do something useful there.

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 09:38

Holy-Nightmare

My biggest complain (second

My biggest complain (second to HP trinkets and trinkets in general) is overpowered damage sets.

These new sets and buffed ones (chaos and BK) make the guardian shield useless. If these sets were removed (or banned from LD) it would force players to have to chose between playstyles. With Chaos or BK they can tear apart a guardian shield in moments with one of the Blaster lines and then quickly kill you with a Max damage sword attack.

They make playing LD a pain for the newer players who will die from these sets even if they have the right damage resists. What is the point in using Volcanic plate mail if I still get killed in one DA combo?

Ban these armor items and players would have to work together, get the Shadowsun to break the shield while the Skolver can rush in and more easily dispose of the Guardian.

If the guardian shield was buffed to counter Max damage sets then other non-max damage sets would become useless since it would take too many to wear down a single guardian.

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Recon footsteps....... and power. Thanks to HP trinkets the Recon can no longer take out enemies they get the jump on, and with footsteps showing it is all the more difficult to sneak about. Something needs to be done to buff this class whether it is dropping the sword penalty or making the Deathmark last an incredibly long time.

_______________________________________________________________

Strikers are horribly annoying, the only way for other classes to engage them is to wait till they move in or sneak up on them since striker is much faster than everyone else. Even if you can land a few hits on them they just run back to base, heal, and then come and kill you.

Give the striker an MSD High when not shield boosting so that they get punished more for boosting too often. They also don't need to be allowed to return to spawn to get instant healing, either prevent them from going back in or make them have to wait 10 seconds after walking in spawn before the pads can heal them.

_______________________________________________________________

Bombs....... the biggest reason bombs are unused is that the enemy can see when the bomb will explode and how large the blast radius is. Hide this info from the other team and bombs will be a larger threat since the enemy won't know exactly when it will blow or how big, the only thing they will see is what kind of bomb.

______________________________________________________________

Broken weapons........

Flourish, Acheron, GF/DA, Pulsars are the most powerful and annoying LD weapons.

Bombs, Catalyzers, Leviathan blade, etc are comparably weaker and need something to make them better.

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 10:04

#10

Parasthesia

Imagine the waiting room for

Imagine the waiting room for a match. You could select to bein your own loadouts in, or choose from a stock set with cobalt/Levi/valiance is the stock loadout.

You then step on a variety of selection pads to switch out your equipment. These selection pads would be similar to the class selection pads in the LD locker room, and would consist of hall of heroes armor/weapons.

You might have a stock of "UV points" equivalent to one max UV, or you could get a med and a med, etc. that you can apply to your stock loadout.

You can save these loadouts for PVP purposes to lower the tedium.

This seems like a fair way to give every player equal footing in PVP. Special event weapons and your own excellent UVs would be reason enough to bring your own gear, and make it so special non-Hall-of-Heroes equipment could not be mixed with base loadouts. Maybe even give the base equips no access to heart trinkets but more UV points.

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 12:40

#11

Jungle-Sword

If you ask me

If you just gave everyone a double penta for LD, removed BK, made the guardian shield a TAD stronger, and removed recon footsteps and ASD, things would be much more balanced

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 13:31

#12

Fangel

Honestly...

Strikers are what people assume are the default in lockdown. They also assume you have max damage and +12 health. That's not really... Default, honestly. It's more sort of a shame.

When you play the game without damage boosts, all weapons pretty much fall into place in balance. The gran faust can two-hit-kill a chaos-striker with no health trinkets without damage bonuses.
But I don't really think the best solution will ever to be to "take OP things away from the player", instead give "multiple OP ways to play the game". If you play your class/armor well you should be OP.

You all want to play some game that has every class on the same level, but what would make it so much more fun is if each class is OP in different ways, each with some huge bulging weakness that both other classes can exploit. You don't make everyone a glass cannon, so to speak, but you make glass cannons much less viable, and make them more like paper airplane kamikaze bombers. They run in, deal a lot of damage, and die... If they are not careful.

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 13:39

#13

Reto-Da-Liz

I believe anyone could get 2 pentas within a few hours.

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 15:46

#14

Fangel

It's a painful process

With an energy/orb investment and coin boosters, yeah, sure.

Not many people first getting into PvP want to be using any of those/can obtain enough of those. Then becomes the issue of actual monetary issues for the slots.
I mean, the slots are cheap honestly... But health trinkets as is are stupidly good for striker when strikers are supposed to be all marshmallowy. Not sure about you, but I don't like it when my marshmallows are rocks.

Thu, 02/05/2015 - 23:12

#15

Sipsy

Being a PvP - only player ( I dislike the slow and sluggish movements of PvE, so this post contains bias from a striker's point of view ), I actually think LD is fine the way it is, thought it could use some minor improvements ( chat and rev time )

The problems with the 'solutions'

- The problem with 'stock gear' is that, unless you have set gear with every combination of weapons and armour ( which is a lot ), you'll be limiting a lot of play styles, though Parasthesia's idea sounds like the best resolution so far.

- Two game modes also means that it'll also make it harder to get into games

- Getting rid of UV's/AT/broken gear/whatever, You still can't have a skill based, unbiased game, lag/ping/latency/whatever is still present, it took me forever to accept this and just do the only thing you can do and just deal with it.

- Getting rid of heart trinkets, Who wants to play a game where you need to wait 20 seconds to revive only to get one ~ two hit killed? It won't make it fun for anyone.

Shortening the revival time would get rid of a lot of the time it takes to whine, creating a ( slightly ) better atmosphere and also makes LD more fun as it's more forgiving when you die because you can get right back in on the action. This also creates a bit more to think about, whether to keep your enemies alive and waste their time so that they won't revive and spread.
Also being able to disable the opposing team's chat would be great.

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 01:02

#16

Traevelliath

Being a PvE - only player (I dislike the frantic and spastic movements of PvP, so this post contains bias from a recon's point of view), I actually think LD is fine the way it is, though it could use some minor improvements (bugfixes, and balance tweaks to classes)

I hate the idea of limiting the gear players are using. I thought the appeal of Lockdown was the opportunity to bring the equipment that you've spent so long/much crafting. It seems a bit hypocritical to say "bring anything you want, except everything I don't want." Half the battle is fought before a match even begins as you build your arsenal. Trinkets aren't as difficult to make as people seem to think, especially with the orb system. If you got a few low level orbs lying around, you can easily make a 3* trinket for a couple thousand crowns. On the other hand, Black Kat Kowl and Chaos just need to be tweaked in general, not just for Lockdown, so I agree with people on that point.

The classes on the other hand I wouldn't mind seeing some tweaks, even if they are just experimental tweaks that get reverted within a week. A bit of trial and error can go a long way in finding a good balance while encouraging a changing meta.

As one last word, I think that these issues either should be resolved or LD should be dropped, because it really hurts the experience for everyone. For those players who will never even want to play LD, they see the list of people waiting for LD and think "This is an empty game." Need I say more?

While I understand where you are coming from for most of your points, this is where you completely lost me. I didn't even realize you could see a list of people waiting for Lockdown until you brought it up. If someone never wants to play Lockdown then they'll just never think about it as they go about playing PvE. People are only going to start thinking "This is an empty game" if the party finder can't find anyone and Haven is deserted.

Final note: Recon steps... fix plz

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 09:40

#17

Tenkii

Trinkets

I was a recon evangelist, and honestly, I think trinkets (even health trinkets) were a good thing in Lockdown. They let you either capitalize on your strengths better or make up for your classes' weaknesses.

Normally, it's:
- Striker --> Offensive melee class, dies quickly
- Recon --> Support class, cause statuses (status guns, bombs, or deathmark) for teammates or to do followup/interruption hits for your teammates
- Bomber --> Defensive class - area denial with bombs, shield to cover teammates.

Adding in trinkets makes it so people can break out of those molds: turn striker into a longer lasting offense (health trinkets) or a fast-traveling bomber (bomb CTR), turn recon into an assassin (try giving a skilled recon max ASI or DMG with guns or swords), or a guardian into a literal tank (gun ASI) or turtle (sword ASI).

Health trinkets by themselves simply don't carry the same value to all classes unless they're already super geared (ex: max UVs forever), and people should stop treating it like they do while ignoring the other options and playstyle openings that the other trinkets create for the other classes.

Now if it's a matter of "have trinkets" vs "have no trinkets", then you might as well complain about "have offensive armor bonus" vs "have no offensive armor bonus".

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 11:50

#18

Autofire

Maybe this thread should go in the Colloseum section?

So, basically, in order to get into the pseudo-competitive aspect of the game, I have to play regularly to get the most use of my Trinket Upgrades? But then I don't want to get Trinket Upgrades unless I play regularly.

Anyway, I don't care if people here say that Strikers aren't as bad as they sound. Why was I always the only Recon in my team (and, usually, the game)? And what is boring to me is that I practically have "to go with the flow" and get heart trinkets. What if I want to be more creative? Also, I am aware that Heart Trinkets are helpful in stretching battles out. However, battles should be inherently longer, not because of Knights on steroids.

Oh, by the way, I have a True Love Locket. I could easily buy another 5* heart trinket. I'm not complaining for my own sake, but for those who would otherwise get into the game.

My issue with Heart Trinkets is that their a direct, statistical boost. I don't have to think twice when equipping a Heart Trinket, whereas I probably do when equipping weapon stat boosters. "Do I really need more ASI? Or should I be getting CTR instead?"

-------------
Anyway, let's think about another counter play: Shock! (Oh, by the way, getting Shock resist is not playing around Shock. It doesn't take any brain cells to get Shock MAX. And saying "Dodge their attacks!" goes without saying, but we've all gotten shocked sometime.)

This is what I see happen: White Knights A and B clash with Black Knights A and B at some point. White Knight A gets Shocked by Black Knight A. Black Knights A and B attack White Knight A. White Knight A gets mauled, and White Knight B can do nothing but maybe fight or run. Since White Knight A has a hard time fighting back, White Knights A and B get defeated.

What would you have suggested White Knights A and B do instead? There isn't much. Maybe use Bombs? Chances are, that shock came from a gun, so that's not going to work. And this argument can go for Freeze and Stun, too.

So, what can we do to cause varying statuses (statusi? statusees?) to open up new kinds of play? No, serving guacamole is not an option.

My solution is to make the Guardian Shield cure statuses. Of course, this would damage the shield for every status cured, to prevent severe abuse. However, this would put the Guardian in a better position than before, and gives him a sorta healer-y ability.

Now, in theory, White Knight B might decide to be a bomber, and provide support to White Knight A. When White Knight A gets shocked, White Knight B can actually cure him on the spot and they can continue to fight for the point. Of course, things might not end up like this, but the curing mechanic would hopefully open up new and viable strategies without nullifying statuses.

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 12:22

#19

Yvanblo

but, balance...

- Two game modes also means that it'll also make it harder to get into games

IN MY OPINION, AND FROM MY POINT OF VIEW;

Two games modes would make it more accessible to more players, therefore making it easier to find an open game.

Currently, if non PvP's jump into a LD game, they get owned so fast it's embarrassing. It's like playing Counter Strike: Source/TF2... if you don't play a lot of CS:S/TF2, you get owned quickly by those that do play a lot. It's just not much fun for new players. New LD players don't have all the fancy gear, or knowledge of how it works. At least in CS:S there isn't a bunch of gear that is vastly more powerful for the long time players than for the new players. There are plenty of choices, and some work better than others, but every player has equal opportunity to grab great gear without spending a lot of time and money to get them. If something doesn't work, you try something else until you find the setup that gives you an edge. Can you imagine having to head-shot someone 3 times with your AWP in CS:S because they had head-shot protection max?

To me LD is Pay to win. I may have the skills to do well, but my gear does not allow me to do well, and this is a balance issue. Without standardized loadouts, BALANCE will never happen in LD. Is balance not one of the biggest complaints in SK?

(I need to stop posting on the forums... I just get myself in trouble. *Braces self for rebuke*)

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 12:41

#20

Traevelliath

You can buy a Trinket Slot after like 2-3 FSC runs. If you pick up the game like once a month then sure it's not worth it. However, trinket slots are not the barrier people seem to think.

Off the top of my head, pulsars and status bombs are both great ways to make space. You can also use your disabled ally as bait. You know that they'll try to engage him, so you know where they'll be and you can counter accordingly. Or you can just use the distraction and go for the objective because Lockdown is won through control points, not kills.

(Oh, by the way, getting Shock resist is not playing around Shock. It doesn't take any brain cells to get Shock MAX...)

Why isn't this an option? As I stated before, bringing your own equipment into Lockdown is part of the game.

I think the problem is people assume Lockdown is a game of pure skill. While a lot of skill is nice, it isn't the entirety of the game. Equipment is half the battle.

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 12:59

#21

Vohtarak-Forum

I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

A good way to counter Polaris spammers and status bombers is to get them with a winter grave charge, stay below their screen and either immobilize or wreck them, I find that strategy to work really well, but I am the only person I've seen in LD with a winter grave so it might be harder than I make it seem to be, it would help if someone else gave feedback on this

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 13:13

#22

Fangel

Shields just need a rework.

I feel like we need to have a Community vs Developers lockdown tournament every month or so so the developers can see the imbalance first-hand. Make it an event and have there be both "guilds vs three rings" and GMs in random games.

At that point Three Rings would be able to balance things accordingly. I'd reckon after the event there be a big Q&A in certain guild halls with the developers, and you could choose which developer/GM to talk to and give suggestions/ask questions. (Guilds that participate in fighting Three Rings could open their halls for questions if they won, else the Three Rings guild hall would be open to all)

Would make the lockdown scene a lot more fun if the developers modify it in such a way that it's fun again. I'm still against the idea of removing items, and instead introducing new or better things that are fun to both use and die to. (It's not fun being killed by a striker with max damage and more health than a recon)

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 15:33

#23

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Why isn't this an option? As I stated before, bringing your own equipment into Lockdown is part of the game.

Why, yes indeed. It just takes a long time to get Shock MAX, and it would be better if it wasn't mandatory. I mean that it feels like it's literally the best thing in the game to get.

And I'm aware that Lockdown isn't pure skill; it should never be. It should also be about planning. The issue is that I don't have much to plan when there's a selection of 'best options' always looking me in the face!

EDIT: Also, on that topic, it is fun (in a way) to have MAXed resistances; then I have to bring more than one status (or none at all) to get around those with more resistances. That is fairly done, in some respects. (Otherwise, we'd have a LOT of Ice and Shock haze bombs.)

@Fangel

That's a great idea. I mean, that exists in Elsword. (Kinda) It would be great, since the devs attract people like sponges, it would likely get more people into PvP as well. That would fix a lot, I bet. After all, I could type all day about this stuff, but it does no good in the end if the devs don't get to experience LD themselves!

Fri, 02/06/2015 - 23:15

#24

Leekcoco

The only thing not balanced in LD is just the disproportionate advantage of UVs/mainstream gear and lag/latency. Anyone who isn't lazy or dumb can get trinkets and UVs, you can't possibly believe that everyone swiped their credit cards to the bone to get these things. You just need to put the time and effort into it. People who are serious will put that time into it. There are also people without an ounce of UV on them, and still play marvelously with what they have.

Can't do anything about lag (and AT sucks more because of said lag). I'd give up all my UVs if I can get rid of my 250+ ping.

Sat, 02/07/2015 - 04:31

#25

Sipsy

Counter play !

Sorry for my grammatical errors, typing this at 1am on a vita.

Shock can be used against the person that used it. Happens to me all the time, I shock them, I lowermy guard and go on the offensive, they 'run', turn around and smacks me accross the face.

Counter play for lag? (Shameless delusional boasting) I'd be god with 4 bars of connection, so the server limits me to one bar. This keeps things fair for you and fun for me ;)

Counter play for maistream gear? Become the mainstream, you hipster ! If it's good, you show them that it's good, others will copy you too. In all seriouness though, status effects > chaos/bkc, they can't complain coz they're opting to trade status resist for offense boost, cripple them, squash them kill 'em Punish them.

Counter play for UV's? CTR makes them want to hold their charge until it charges, givses you an opening - no matter how small it is, you take it and you make me proud. ASI? Makes them think it's less punishing to use a whole combo because of the shorter fatigue time, it still leaves them WIDE open.

Counter play for AT? AT doesn't do much but if it really bothers you that much, get something even cheaper like a GF or DA, which have a 50% chance to hit anything. in a team battle, AT also wont let youhit more than one target so you might get lucky too. I personally find people that whine about AT more annoying than those who actually use it though. ( chat disale please !? )

Moral of the story; It's all psychological, it only matters if you want it to matter. In the end, it's up to you to decide how much fun you want to have in lockdown. If you look at the small stuff and focus on the little things, that's what you'll focus on and forget about the fun things. Life's too short. too cliche? Too bad coz that's all I've got. Copletely off topic lmao, Maybe I should go into psychology or philosophy aftr high school.

Sat, 02/07/2015 - 12:22

#26

Modicu

My points.

Remove the ability to equip or have trinkets in Lockdown.

The classes in Lockdown are supposed to have strengths and weaknesses, pros and cons, not all positives and near-zero drawbacks. With the use of trinkets, this entirely just breaks them apart, giving the classes an edge in places they shouldn't be strong with. The Strike Booster, for instance, limits your health to a small degree, but this is easily omitted with the use of trinkets that increase your health by at least 3 pips. As for the other trinkets, I find it really annoying how ridiculous it is to fight other players who have maximum damage and ASI, when many of us don't even have those at all. Not to mention, those trinkets turn everyone into arrogant, good-for-nothing weasels who care only about damage when the point of the game is to capture, defend, and maintain the control points.

"But I worked hard to get these trinkets! I even paid good money for them! You'll be ruining the game by doing that!"

Have you ever walked outside of the Coliseum and into the Arcade? Have ever you taken a long stroll through the Clockworks, and maybe perhaps, make good use of the bonuses they apply there instead? The game isn't centralized around player-versus-player madness, so enjoy the other parts of the game that it warmly provides to you. Trinkets entirely break Lockdown, granting bonuses and perks to classes that shouldn't even have those applied to.

"You're just saying that because you suck at Lockdown."

Yes, I'm terrible at Lockdown, but it's probably because I'm not in the meta, nor do I want to be a part of it. Chaos? Black Kat? Skolver? Very high and maximum unique variants from constantly rolling at Punch and throwing your money at him until you got those 'god-tier' variants? Yeah... no.

I have a Black Kat Cowl that I got from the previous Black Kat Event a few months back, but I dare not wear it anywhere in the Clockworks unless I'm just looking to die a lot, suffer a life-long sentence of statuses, or for looks. I may even end up selling it, who knows. The thing just... scares me, and I have no idea why I wasted a 1-UV ticket on it if I don't even use the thing, really.

I just play the game to try and have fun, but like many other new players end up... we all get destroyed in a matter of seconds of the match starting. I don't "no-life" the gamemode and study it as if it will get me anywhere in life. I've played all of the classes, and the only one I'm seemingly decent with is the Recon Unit, though they're not exactly... living up to their title, I must say.

"Lockdown is all about damage, not capturing control points."

Fun fact: No, it isn't.

Create a "stock-based" version of Lockdown in which players cannot equip trinkets, unique variants are omitted, and equipment is set to a specific level based upon what it is.

What does this mean? It means that maybe Lockdown won't be a massive, damage-only slaughterfest like it practically is nowadays.

- Helmets and armor will have their level set to (or reduced to) level 5, just enough to grant them the health bonus of the helmet or armor.
- Weapons will have their level reduced to level 1.
- Unique variants will not be allowed to be used.
- Trinkets will have no effect.
- Players will have to utilize the strengths and weakness of the classes they chose, help each other out, and work together to conquer the game, for once.

Sat, 02/07/2015 - 12:41

#27

Autofire

@Van-Winkle: When I say

@Van-Winkle: When I say "Counter play," I do not mean "Counteract", but "What can I do now that they have X?" They're similar but different.

@Cyberpony:
I don't "no-life" the gamemode and study it as if it will get me anywhere in life.

It will, if you are creative. I analyze it because I entirely intend on going into the game business. (Yes, I know exactly what I'm getting into). Even if you're not, you could meta a game, as practice. Then you could better meta your school/job/etc. Enhancing the analytical side of your brain is a very wise thing to do, IMHO.

I would write more, but I have to go do stuff.

Sat, 02/07/2015 - 14:37

#28

Fangel

I don't really play into the meta...

The meta in lockdown requires me to be a striker, and with my reaction times + lag paired with the striker boost it just doesn't add up. There are countless times that on my screen I've been mid-boost a good 5-6 tiles in front of an enemy striker and they just smack me from 8 tiles away and down me. I react to what I see as a striker, not what hasn't happened yet. Which sucks but it's my own fault I guess.

I do think ahead playing recon because I'm not as fast and can more easily observe other playstyles and counter them. Hence, a better recon.

For me I try not to fall too far into any certain meta because they just aren't fun to me. Performing better than your teammates means nothing to winning the game, and I play to win gosh dernit.

Trinkets make lockdown imbalanced only because there's no negative to having them. There's a trade-off choosing class shields, but not to equipping trinkets. If, say, health trinkets increased health but lowered your status resistance, then that would be a plus. Taking away things from people may make you happy, but you're not the one playing their game, so to speak. I wouldn't play lockdown any more or less if they removed trinkets, and I'm sure many players feel the same. Modify the class shields so there's a higher risk-reward factor.

I've thought about changes a bit, came up with on in this thread or another one recently... But here goes nothing:
Class shields - new give n' takes
Striker - No more invincibility frames.
Recon - No footsteps after X amount of time cloaked.
Guardian - No flinching from attacks. Give "Defense up" effect to teammates within the shield after leaving for 5 seconds.

Then there's the other way to go about it stat-wise
Class shields - new stat balance
Striker - medium universal status vulnerability.
Recon - medium/low MSI while cloaked.
Guardian - medium/high universal damage resist/defense up.

Sat, 02/07/2015 - 23:18

#29

Retrofit

the shadows of memories

Lockdown has a massive slew of issues.

There is literally a button on your screen, every time you die, which outright tells you to spend sparks/energy to gain a flat advantage over other players.
There is a toggle which allows to game to aim for you.
There are randomly generated equipment modifiers with no penalties, which give a flat advantage over those without.
There is zero latency compensation.
The list goes on...

There are only two instances of the devs stepping in to resolve LD balance issues. The first was introduction of Heart Trinkets to counterbalance True Love Lockets. That was over three years ago. The second was the Polaris damage nerf, which took nearly three years to actually happen - and, while appreciated, it did not address any of the core problems with the minigame.
Beyond that virtually nothing's ever been done, in spite of countless threads and countless posts. It's nice to see people attempting some constructive dialogue, but bluntly speaking it won't go anywhere.

It's a broken mess. It's always been a broken mess. The game's economy has evolved to support and encourage the broken mess. Enjoy it if you can, but that is all.

Sun, 02/08/2015 - 04:52

#30

Bleyken

Why does people that never play LD argue about LD?

Sun, 02/08/2015 - 05:43

#31

Meep-The-Bank

Meep.

Shouldn't this thread be in the Coliseum / Suggestions?

Sun, 02/08/2015 - 14:42

#32

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Retrofit: ...but bluntly speaking it won't go anywhere.
Fully true. However, I analye so that I can learn from other's mistakes.

Contri: Why does people that never play LD argue about LD?
Because maybe I would play LD if I didn't have as much to argue about.

@Meep-The-Bank
True enough. I think Coliseum is more reasonable.

Mon, 02/09/2015 - 12:23

#33

Holy-Nightmare

......

Trinkets are bad..... the best part of fair PVP games is that a totally new person who has natural talent can walk in and make a sizeable contribution to the objective.

In SK LD a totally new person is put at a statistical disadvantage in their very first match (even if they are using your typical Skolver/Chaos loadout minus the Pentas).

When I look at how good a PVP game is I look at the stats... If I repetitively walk out of spawn and get killed in 2 hits even though I am landing 3-4 hits on everyone I will never play that PVP again.

I will look at the "Competitive" P2W players and well

Serious?

Mon, 02/09/2015 - 13:20

#34

Fehzor

"Move to coliseum"

I'd prefer we keep the thread here where I can find it. If someone does move it, please leave a shadow copy.

----

The problems with lockdown are really two-fold. First, is the fact that it is strongly biased by lag, UVs, trinkets vs no-trinkets, and most of the complaints mentioned above, and second is the fact that it has to bias itself towards these facts. I'll start with why it needs to be biased first.

Why it is biased

No one has the same gear and part of "the fun" is in becoming stronger and using your gear effectively. This isn't something that's out to get you, it's just how the game is played- Vanaduke can't complain when you use a mixer to kill him, and PvP players can't either as the truth is that it's an even playing field. If I choose to invest in a skolver set that has shock/fire/stun max on each piece, then I'll have that advantage; similarly, if you choose to invest in a faster sword and black kat that's your decision and now we've got more interesting players.

The other side of this is that it makes Sega Networks, Inc. a lot of money. How? Well to have the best advantage, you need the best set that requires the most energy with the best unique variants that cost crowns that you can buy with energy. If I have black kat with shadow/normal max UVs and you're using gran faust with chroma gear on, I've got an advantage and if you want the same advantage, you have to pay the same amount I did. In the end this basic fact results in quite a pretty penny being spent by "pros" and, humorously, quite a pretty penny being gained by "cons" as well as our friends at Sega Networks, Inc. Destroying this would hurt the whales and all of that business that pays for our video game.

Why this is a problem for the game

Not only because it is unfair but because it really feels unfair and unjustified and most importantly isn't random and can be attributed directly to what's happening with regard to players "paying to win".

If you lag, that's unfair but that isn't really an issue because that's unavoidable. You can blame the death on it, but it's just as likely to help you as to hinder you and you really can't blame dying every round on it.

What does feel unfair however is when I go out with my gran faust and try to assassinate a striker but fail due to the striker using her trinkets to absorb the damage and then turn around and crush me with their own gran faust. I cannot run, because my second weapon is voltaic tempest and the striker has shock variants, and I cannot fight back because they're faster and stronger than I am, because they have guns like valiance to stop me. Even if the difference is actually quite small and factors like lag/skill much larger, whenever I die to some guy who is admittedly better but also better equipped the game just feels awful and that makes it awful.

The mechanics are also problematic

Namely of which are the way defenses and invincibility frames are handled.

If you don't have any defense, the game just gives it to you. This prevents you from getting two shotted, but it also makes stacking defense worthless which in turn makes the bulk of armor worthless and misleads people that haven't wised up to this phenomenon. The solution isn't hard either-

Right now we have: If defense is less than 100, set defense to 100

What we need is something like: Set defense to (defense * 2); add 100 to defense.

Current defense values:
100 = none
125 = some
142 = class high
150 = special (like grey feather)
201 = plate's normal
301 = ancient's normal
+32 = trinket
+52 = max UV

After applying formula:
100 = none
350 = some
384 = class high
400 = special
502 = plate's normal
702 = ancient's normal
+64 = trinket
+104 = max UV

Current defense for full ancient with max UVs in piercing/shadow/elemental-
Normal: 301
Special: 100

Proposed defense for full ancient with max UVs in piercing/shadow/elemental-
Normal: 702
Special: 204

This would open up the knight to becoming incredibly tanky in lockdown, especially when they stacked on the bonuses from things like damage absorbing variants and the likes of that. The fact that nothing like this exists is why there aren't any defensive builds that don't rely on raw HP out there.

The other thing I said I'd mention are invincibility frames. Dread venom striker deals two hits, but in lockdown only one of them can hit. Similarly, weapons like blitz needle are only capable of hitting once per 15 shots, which really lowers their offensive potential by quite a bit and explains why the weapons are so very rarely used. Fixing this would allow more knights to use their favorite gear in lockdown.

Mon, 02/09/2015 - 13:21

#35

Deleted-Knight

I think the main problem is Lockdown damage/weapon mechanics makes it really hard to balance anything.
The weapons deal a ridiculous amount of damage relative to the average HP of a player, most weapons have a huge hit box, and damage occurs before the attack animation. To make things worse, SK is very laggy, both on the client side graphics and on the server connection.

Why are HP trinkets "overpowered"?
Well, without trinkets, a striker die in 2 hits. So adding trinkets doubles survivability. With recon and guardian the boost is 20-30%, which is still pretty darn significant.
Why are ASI UVs "overpowered"?
Suppose you face off an opponent with the same HP as you. If you can pull off 3 consecutive hits, you give yourself a huge advantage, even if they managed to land a hit on you in return. By getting in just two more hits, you can go from same health to twice the health of your enemy.
Why is Auto-target "overpowered"?
Fighting in Lockdown revolves around spamming attacks and maximizing the chance that more of your hits will land than your opponents. Even though AT's correction is really not that much given the large hit boxes, this small advantage compounds greatly when you attack many times a second in different directions.
Why is damage bonus "overpowered"?
All of the above problems are the result of a meta-game centered around quickly killing your opponent. Allowing people to deal more damage per hit only aggravates the problem.

I've started to realize none of the buffs mentioned above are actually overpowered relative to a player's base stats. They are only overpowered because game mechanics make even small buffs abusable. A minor difference in latency/attack speed/damage/aim makes the difference between 2HKO and 3HKO.
Because landing each hit involves a lot of uncertainty and risk, that tips the balance of power.

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