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Choosing advice for my 5* normal damage Blast bomb

16 replies [Last post]
Wed, 02/25/2015 - 06:06
Jenovasforumchar's picture
Jenovasforumchar

Hello forum goers,

finally I want to craft weapons that make my life easier in the Unknown Passage and got the conclusion that one of these weapon should be one of the three normal damage blast bombs:

-BAB
-Nitro
-Irontech destroyer

I already did read the whole bombing guide by Zeddy and everything that is written in the wiki on the pages of the corresponding bombs, but i still can't decide and I got questions:

1. The blast radius for irontech is missing. Is it the same radius that the other bombs have?
1.1. Do all three bombs have the same radiuses?
1.2. Does the Irontech Bomb has really the same radius like its 5* Version?

2. I Need more Information to Irontech destroyer and its 4* Version!
2.1 How much is the movement decrease effect different from BAB and nitro?
2.2 How strong is the knockback of IB and ID?
2.3 For me it looks like the two irontechs are the middl between nitro and BAB, I am often reading comments that Irontech is useless or lacks much of use compared to its two brothers. Are people thinking it is useless because it has no extreme peak or what is behind such comments?

3. -and the main question of this post- what bomb should I pick; what would fit best for me?

Here I would like to add a bit to my playing style:

-Since now I got very little into bomb playing for damage purpose and even less for knockbacking purpose.
I got DR and DBB, I like to use mist bombs (also fire as safe damage source) and I tested with vortexes around a bit (I got Obsidian crusher, too). My shard experience were disappointing till now.

-I like movability. So when I Encounter a new Mission that I will explore with care, I will bring a weapon that allows me to evade and get me through untouched.

-When I get confidence in stuff, I also bring Needle or swords for a better damage Output. Nevertheless I am often using the 1st normal shots with my needle to be able to dodge counterattacks.

-Personal thoughts:
Nitro: By liking movability, I see nitro as my bomb choice that also got a short fuse and explode time. But I fear that it will be too less knocking back to b safe after 1 bomb explode and that it will be useless aside from pushing enemies around if i want to do damage. Exspecially because enemies wouldn't get a secound time damage from an Explosion after I placed two nitros Close together.

Irontech (4*): I did read that it can deal more damage than nitro nitro and it would have the same blast radius. Additionally it can stun and I can still move faster than BAB and it has a shorter fuse time even than its 5* Version. So I would get a better bomb with 4* without the Need of radiants? (3-9 rads per vana...I got pretty bad luck) But on the other side People tell that irontech is useless and shouldn't be headed for. So actually I lost interest because of all the bad comments, but for a final decision if this bomb is really useless, I Need more Information to it.

Irontech (5*): No outstanding attributes plus the longer fuse time seems to make this bomb worse than its 4 star Counterpart. Still I Need more Information to create my own Image.

BAB: It has a very good blast radius and when it hits, it deals actually damage. Plus the longer fuse time gives Monster a Chance to get back into the circle again. Right now this is the bomb of my choice - not at least because of Zeddy's recommendation for this bomb in his bombing guide.

Hints and suggestions are welcomed.
If you see any spelling flaws, then blame my German auto correcting that makes it too annoying to go over each word again -.-

Wed, 02/25/2015 - 07:37
#1
Bopp's picture
Bopp
don't know, but

This is a nice thread, because it's a detailed question that isn't often asked. Sorry, but I don't know the answers.

You might also try searching Google for something like "blast bomb site:forums.spiralknights.com" or "nitro irontech site:forums.spiralknights.com" (without the quotation marks). Good threads are hard to find, but for example this thread from 2012 compares the blast radii.

Good luck, and I'll be reading the responses with interest.

Wed, 02/25/2015 - 11:02
#2
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

I can answer most of this thread, though it would be nice if someone with experience using the 4* irontech could come in- my irontech destroyer was never the current 4*, as I crafted it before it received a buff and have only seen/heard about what it's like.

Radii

To begin with, the radii of all the bombs mentioned are the same, be they nitronome, irontech bomb (4*), irontech destroyer (5*), or big angry bomb. The radii of master blast bomb (I believe that is the name of the 4* nitronome, it's been a while) and heavy deconstructor are smaller, however.

Nitronome

Nitronome has small knockback, what feels like a little more than a blaster shot (not the charge). It moves small mobs a bit too far on occasion, and can be kind of obnoxious to people that aren't used to it, but it's manageable for the party and comfortable to the bomber. There is no apparent change to movement speed. Grievers (the wave of 12 grievers) can be countered using nitronome just as they can be countered by dark briar barrage, with practice.

Irontech

Irontech destroyer has a bit more knockback that really comes into play against larger targets, like lumbers. It will send lumbers about 2 or 3 tiles away and smaller mobs about 4, maybe 5 tiles away (just an estimate, I'd have to go in game and test it again) typically, making its higher DPS harder to manage. Its real claim to fame is that with practice and stats, it could become somewhat better than nitronome. The stun irontech destroyer deals does not help make it any easier to use against a number of monsters, as it stuns unevenly- those 12 grievers would end up out of synch, able to get through to you without additional blast bombers stacking bombs onto your location. If you have the time and energy to master irontech destroyer, it might not be the worst idea to do so. The movement speed decrease is akin to that of the vortex bombs and will get you hit fairly often if you're not careful-- that goes for big angry bomb and I believe they have about the same movement speed penalty but am not 100% sure.

Big angry bomb

Big angry bomb deals more knockback than it does damage. I mean yes it does deal more damage than nitronome, but it's more damage per hit compared to nitronome who can hit repeatedly and often, and the DPS certainly doesn't come out in your favor. The knockback is around that of sudaruska. If there isn't anything to stop this knockback... well... This picture pretty much sums it up, especially since team rocket miraculously landing safely and getting up unharmed also fits into the analogy.

The extreme knockback and stun combined with dropping few bombs that take longer to hit makes it a far worse option than nitro or DBB for the griever example, but does allow you to get at healers using a sword afterwards-- if there are 12 mechas chasing you and you get in a big angry bomb, you can stun many of them and then shield bash at the mender to give you a window of opportunity. This is a powerful aspect of the bomb that is often overlooked.

It can also potentially one shot mobs on levels like compounds when given enough damage boost, making it better than nitronome if you can get the one shot in... though I can't say for certain what damage values etc. are needed to accomplish this.

Regarding knockback

Where huge knockback isn't so good is in parties with people that hope to cluster enemies together, or if people wish to play with little of your interference. This would be most parties, as the bulk of popular weapons either deal tons of damage safely under a condition (blitz needle, warmaster rocket hammer), or deal a large amount of damage over a small area (alchemers, brandishes), or support these play styles (shivermist buster, voltaic tempest, vortex bombs). When you join parties and try to use your crazy knockback, there's a good chance you'll be entirely counter productive.

It is also the case that knockback, especially on unknown passage, isn't necessarily a bad thing. When you have to just survive in the middle of a bunch of enemies that include improved swarm lumbers and swarm seeds, having that knockback can offer a much easier means of avoiding damage. This is where big angry bomb really shines. Irontech would work here, and it would work fairly well but the mega lumbers will be much more of a problem, as it would only bump them away a little bit when it's much better to just score a home run with them. Nitronome would work here but won't phase the lumbers at all, making it a lesser option than irontech/bab in the unknown passage.

Conclusion

So if you're looking for a good DPS bomb that works well in general and don't mind having a slightly harder unknown passage, nitronome is your best bet. If you're looking for a bomb that's more challenging to find a use for outside of the unknown passage, big angry bomb is your best bet... and if you're particularly creative+skilled, irontech destroyer could become an even nicer asset to you. My understanding of irontech bomb is that it's just a worse but cheaper version of nitronome.

Wed, 02/25/2015 - 11:52
#3
Jenovasforumchar's picture
Jenovasforumchar

@Bopp
I did read the opening and I was reading some of the comments, but i can clearly see that they refere to a state of the bombs that is in the past. These bombs got changed and stun seems to be fixed (isn't it?). So due to its outdate, I can not use it here.

@Fehzor
Thank you for pointing out some of these things. Actually I was also thinking of how would these three bombs would work vs 12 greavers just before I did open my browser to read your example - again thank you for this.

...So ID would be no good choice vs the greavers.... but what is about BAB if I place it in time before the greavers come and keep spamming? Does it help or is the time between explosions too big (I also suppose it also suffers under its stun status).

It is also interesting that BAB can 1hit things like minnies. I for myselfe am usually doing missions with max dmg and max ctr (chaos+ sprite) and can create safe circles for a team mate. Currently I got a Super Blast Bomb (3*) with a ctr low that allows me to have max ctr at heat level 5 with any bomb by having the max dmg bonus, too (sprite).

Btw: Is Zeddy still around here in forums?

Wed, 02/25/2015 - 14:56
#4
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

BAB would be worse for grievers, since there would be more openings and more stun+craziness to get them offset from one another. That's how they get to you- they all rush at different times, and they need to all be in sync. The random stun is what puts them out of sync with one another.

They'll all work if you have 2 or 3 people standing on top of one another spamming to close the gaps though.

Wed, 02/25/2015 - 15:50
#5
Nertgvv's picture
Nertgvv
Ok.....

Lets see how I can help

Irontech Destroyer:
NOT USELESS. The damage is only abit less than BAB, and the charge time is same as nitronome (1.8 secs) While BAB is same as mist bombs (2.2 secs). Truthfully, I think Irontech Destroyer is MUCH better than BAB

Big Angry Bomb: Fun to mess around with, the blast radius is the same. Its walk time is SUPREMELY slow while charging (irontech destroyer has same seed I think) and the damage is only abit more (about 20 points). I just think the knockback is WAY more than Nitro. I have one and really, I don't like it AT ALL.

Nitronome: Very good bomb overall. DPS is pretty good, knockback s moderate (I think Pulsar knockback or abit more... not sure). Fast charge speed, no decrease in move speed while charging. Only bad thing is that the explosion might be detracting, and u might knock monsters into party members.

Heavy Deconstructor: Not a very good bomb. Just get it for sake of trolling (lol). The bonus vs Constructs don't really do anything. Lol.

Radius: The 4* radius's are not as bad as you think. Thats because when your 4* is at heat level 7 or 8, its radius is 5* level 1. Which is why I'm probably not gonna craft a 5* bomb ever in my whole life unless it alchemizes different (BAB). Go for it!

Overall: Nitronome. Irontech Destroyer if you REALLY want that increased knockback and stun. Heavy deconstructor if..... you hate constructs. Or you wanna do the new crimson hammer mission. Its overloaded with constructs (except for the second floor). I just DON'T, and I mean DON'T, recommend BAB. I think its completely useless. And no Irontech Destroyer is pretty good, between BAB and Nitro. Its like Voltaic Tempest, between crowd control (shivy :D) and damage (Ash :D)

-Nert

Wed, 02/25/2015 - 17:11
#6
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Zeddy stopped playing unfortunately, for the usual reasons- no updates, no item balance fixes, no word from the developers, game gets boring, life offers more opportunities faster than Three Rings does. Which is really a shame, that the devs or... whoever.. just threw him away like that. I'll never understand it, how they're willing to abuse gambling elements and all of that business for what amounts to quick cash, but not individual people that offer more than just money.

"I think [big angry bomb is] completely useless."

Have you tried the cutter+blast bomb+pulsar only strategy?

Wed, 02/25/2015 - 18:05
#7
Nertgvv's picture
Nertgvv
Huh

No actually. I never got a Cutter before. More of a Levi person (on sword matters). How does the strat work? I don't get it.

And just asking.... is Heavy Deconstructor ACTUALLY useless?

Thu, 02/26/2015 - 04:46
#8
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

Nah, the heavy deconstruct or is like the winmillion of bombs, its possible to make it work

Thu, 02/26/2015 - 05:14
#9
Krakob's picture
Krakob

... and it's entirely inferior to its alternatives.

Thu, 02/26/2015 - 07:58
#10
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

@Nertgvv

The idea is that the party can use big angry bomb/irontech/nitronome to create safety by pushing all of the monsters away repeatedly. Since the blast bombs send enemies into places where they get stuck, guns like supernova and polaris can then be used to corner them and get the kill with zero risk. Cutters work well because all of the enemies are singled out and pushed against walls, allowing the sword to be used relatively safely and effectively without distraction. You'd want to do this against slimes, gremlins, construct, things that can't chase you down. It also wrecks beasts, who are weak to stun and teleport directly into the way of bombs.

Overall it isn't the most effective strategy in most areas compared to just dealing tons of damage with autoguns, but in areas like the unknown passage it can work much better than that sort of thing. I'd put it about on par with the all brandish strategy, but a bit worse than the brandish strategy in the presence of a vortex bomb.

@Heavy Deconstructor VS Winmillion Argument

The problem is that heavy deconstructor does the same thing as nitronome but worse... and yes, I do mean even against constructs-- nitro does 230 while heavy deconstructor does only 196. The only possible advantage would be on a construct level where having a large blast radius is somehow a negative.

Winmillion on the other hand can't really be compared to any other swords, and is capable of doing relatively high damage over a short burst of hits despite its poor DPS. Its problem isn't that it's useless, but that it's underwhelming, unnecessary and has a high learning curve.

Thu, 02/26/2015 - 12:29
#11
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

I said it can be made to work, not that its better than the other options

And it wasn't versus winmillion either, I just used it as a comparison because they both fit the above description

Thu, 02/26/2015 - 20:50
#12
Nertgvv's picture
Nertgvv
Huh

I'm wondering why Jenovasforumchar wont use Deadly Shard Bomb.... its pretty powerful and you can get a ~50% increase in damage with max, making it 150 per shard, so 300 per enemy. Not so bad, is it? Now, back to the topic.

Wait so the Heavy Deconstructor is utterly useless. Huh. I was actually gonna get one to see if its THAT bad, but I guess it is. But in Vohtarak's terms, it seems its not useless. (post #8) Cause he said "you can make it work". From damage chart... No, you can't.

I'm gonna veer off topic again, but... the deadly shard bomb isn't bad at all. I would prefer it as my assist bomb, cause it can actually deal somewhere around Nitronome damage, just that its alot weirder with unpredictable knockback. Meh. Not as blinding as Nitro.

-Nert

EDIT: I wanted to compare the Heavy Deconstructor's damage against the Master Blast Bomb, and considering that there is no numbers for that... I'm very confused right now.

Fri, 02/27/2015 - 04:45
#13
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

I will repeat what I said again

You can make it work=/= its better than other bombs
I was saying: its usable, it can be used to attack, it can do OK in a loadout
I was NOT saying: it is better than the other blast bombs

I can explain it for you as many times I can, but you need to reread and understand it yourself

Fri, 02/27/2015 - 05:12
#14
Jenovasforumchar's picture
Jenovasforumchar

@Nertgvv

As I pointed out in the opening, I want a bomb that helps me in the Unknown Passage, where you actually have to get through and survive. Maybe that shard bomb can deal more dps, but it has that *huge* con that it pushes the enemies unpredictably around and thus work against surviving unharmed.

And I don't just say it by reading other Posts - I created myselfe two shard bombs to 4 stars and tested its use in stratum 3-6. Back then I wanted a bomb vs constructs but my conclusion was that DR is better vs them; not at least by the fact that it can rip through mechaknights instead of pushing them into my face.

So actually I consider the mechanic (crowd control) over the pure damage per secound, because it is about survival.

Let me ask another two questions:
-What's about moving Speed between ID and BAB?
Can someone say for *sure* if there is any difference while charging and if there is, how big the difference is?

-I did read in the topic (that Bopp did link) that heat Level affects bomb radius.
Was that different in the past
or did someone without knowledge post it
or is there a mecanic I never noticed in Spiral Knights?

Thanx for answers :)

Fri, 02/27/2015 - 06:56
#15
Bopp's picture
Bopp
never mind

Never mind about this post.

Fri, 02/27/2015 - 12:08
#16
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

The deadly shard bomb is a bad fit for the unknown passage and also bad in general. If it didn't have invincitinks to worry about, it would be more acceptable but even then it would be a poor option on most loadouts due to being a normal damage weapon with far better specialized and status variants.

Another pitfall is that its best tactic involves running away while dropping bombs to deal damage and bump mobs like mechas around to delays them slightly- which also happens to work with the haze bombs, i.e. ash of agni, voltaic tempest, stagger storm, shivermist buster and venom veilor. Some combination or just one of those (and dark rets) will almost always work better for the running away strategy.

Really it just needs something like a free status effect (fire, anyone?) or a bit of extra damage to make it more palatable... after dealing with invincitinks, of course.

--BACK ON TOPIC--

I'm going to go and test the movement speeds. I'll update this post with info when I have it.

EDIT: They were found to be the same- I used google's stop watch app and timed how long it took me to cross the guild training hall (20 tiles) with one and then the other. Both took about 5 seconds with MSI: Very high (full black kat with MSI sprite perk) and 7 seconds with MSD: Med (full ancient).

I don't believe that heat has any effect on radius. If it does it's so small that I've never noticed it.

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