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PVP sucks if you don't pay, let me just buy Krogmo Coins

31 replies [Last post]
Wed, 03/04/2015 - 02:53
Likal's picture
Likal

You heard me. I'm not going to cough up the cash required to be competitive in Lockdown. It's miserable. So right now the cost for a Krogmo Coin is 200 cr plus wasting my time. ~Maybe~ I'll get a second coin if I happen to get placed on the better team, and that's a coin-flip at best, given the completely and total lack of team balance - or any game balance at all. So either I be miserable "playing" lockdown, or I idle and make everyone else miserable.

Solution? Let me just buy the dang things. At the same price. 200 cr a pop. Or, you know, even better, give the recipes to Basil and stop requiring PvP play to gain PvE gear.

Let the crazy PvP people do crazy PvP things, and let PvE people just play PvE.

Wed, 03/04/2015 - 04:33
#1
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

HAHAHAHAHA
Great joke man
Really got me there
Oh you're serious

This comment is like saying to put boss recipes in the hall of heroes, they're special items, you need to work for them

Wed, 03/04/2015 - 06:32
#2
Snarby-Slasher's picture
Snarby-Slasher
I Agree With Likal

I never liked the idea of PvP in SK,I once played lockdown and the total lack of coordination was just- hell. A person in my team was trying to kill me since the game started! I was like- wtf, this sucks. I went and saw the recipes in the machine and I saw- Voltedge.
I mean, how would I get it if I don't like PvP. And Auction House is a total rip-off.(atleast on tier 2)
I suggest they make the recipes obtainable in special event Prestige missions and just let the other ppl play their Lockdown and Blast Network and whatever. I'll just do my arcade runs.

Wed, 03/04/2015 - 10:41
#3
Fangel's picture
Fangel
No.

You cannot buy any other token in this game. You must play the game in order to obtain said token. If you really want tokens get some friends together and play blast network.

Wed, 03/04/2015 - 14:32
#4
Likal's picture
Likal
doop

Oohnorak, let me put it this way. I don't have to work for them right now, if I'm willing to ruin other people's experience a bit (by idling during matches). If you don't like PvP, but want the recipes, this is the most prudent option.

The most prudent option should NEVER be at the expense of other players.

There are two solutions; Make a better option, or change the experience so that the bad option is no longer the best option. I am advising the former. If you have better ideas, I'm all ears.

Wed, 03/04/2015 - 15:21
#5
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Something to note:

You cannot get krogmo coins if you go idle in Lockdown. I think after so many minutes of idleness it either kicks your or voids your ability to get rewards, shown by the red name and "X" next to it on the rewards screen. Not sure if you just have to move to get the rewards or not.

You may not like PvP, so just play it for fun and try out some tactics. You're having as much fun being AFK anyways (AKA, not having fun), so you might as well spread panic among the enemy team by hitting them with recon signals and walking away. Maybe even capture a point or two. No need to go full srs mode in a minigame you don't really like anyways.

Having a pay to win (in this case) tactic of getting recipes when it's based around devotion to the game and playing one of two minigames is bad design. If you don't like lockdown, play blast network. If you don't like either, suggest a new, fun PvP game that could take place in the coliseum so you can earn krogmo coins that way.

Wed, 03/04/2015 - 23:58
#6
Likal's picture
Likal
doop

Not really sure what more to say, save that I appreciate the discourse, Fangel. I've tried making my own fun, and there's only so many times I can clobber a striker with my Suda and watch them kill me with still more health than my max before it just becomes depressing. And I've tried tossing out suggestions for fixing Lockdown on the forums, but even when OOO ~wants~ to make new content, they move slower than a stunned sloom.

Thu, 03/05/2015 - 01:02
#7
Abelisk's picture
Abelisk

OOO mentioned a new PvP mode called "Challenge Mode" two years ago in their to-do list. You might like that.

Thu, 03/05/2015 - 10:05
#8
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Fangel

You can buy Dark Harvest Candy and Caketastophe Cake tokens.

I wouldn't mind paying 400 CR per Krogmo coin

I personally don't like to play PVP games where the F2P crowd is just punching bags for those who dump money into the game. I play SK for fun and Lockdown isn't fun if you aren't P2W.

Thu, 03/05/2015 - 12:25
#9
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Yes, and that is cosmetic.

Those tokens expire after a set time. All items bought via those items are entirely cosmetic and have no effect on gameplay. You also only buy the end item once, and if you want another buy it again.
With recipes, you need to play the game to get them, be it clockworks or PvP. Yes, lockdown is rather... Special. Hence, I say play blast network with your friends, or with guildmates. You'll earn krogmo coins that way and not that many players play it, plus the only "unfair" factor in that game is internet connection, whereas connection is one of the many unfair things in lockdown.

I would love more PvP games to make the krogmo grind a bit more interesting. I am against krogmo recipes being purchasable, especially since that would not only make the recipes on a Pay to Obtain level (which no other recipe is on, mind you. Auction house is reselling, not the source. You do have to pay crowns to buy the recipes, but you have to play the game to get to the point where you can get that recipe, be it Basil or the right Hall of Heroes), but also it would make the Winterfest prizes unbalanced, at least if the tokens cost anything less than 1k-2k crowns.

You can't get a crest of almire without grinding through vanaduke for tokens and then grinding basil for the recipe (or buying either one off of someone else for obnoxious prices, but they obtained it through those means), so why should you be able to get a voltedge without grinding through PvP games for tokens then paying up to Sullivan?

Thu, 03/05/2015 - 13:45
#10
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
Comparison

The SK PVP system is horribly unbalanced in the favor of the paying player. When I play TF2 I can walk into a server and within a game or 2 I am up near the top of the leaderboard, when I play LD I get killed in 2-3 hits by people who have spent insane amounts of money on getting perfect UVed items, have 4 weapon slots, and more HP than me.

This is why I HATE lockdown, because I know I'm good, but I get beat by someone who blows cash on this game. The worst part is that OOO hasn't done anything to balance PVP and actually seems to encourage this unbalance (Ever notice how most players in LD have a BK set?) to make some extra money.

Thu, 03/05/2015 - 15:00
#11
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Not the system, it's the minigame

The system in place is fine. Lockdown itself is its own problem.

The main issue with Spiral Knights PvP in my own opinion is the server lag. Why? If you have a higher connection then you have faster reaction times. With faster reaction times, you can counter-attack and talk to the server faster, thus letting you hit as you see it.
The amount of times I've been strikering away from someone only to have them swipe at me from now 6 tiles away and kill me is rather infuriating, but I understand it's beyond my control as of now.

Bottom line is that skill will triumph over money when their skill isn't also high as well. A tier 1 player in lockdown with end-game amazing gear would be demolished by even a laggy cobalt knight who knew how to play the game.

My position is that you play PvP for your own enjoyment, and find out what's fun in the game. I hate the Lockdowm meta as my brain calculates everything and when I have to take into effect all the variables of a striker (i.e., my lag, their lag, auto-target, positioning, speed, dodge, where I actually am and where I can be hit from, shield bar, teammates, enemy teammates, map control...) it just gets to be too much for my brain. Recon is mind games and super fun to me. Guardian with a team working together is also amazing...
Difference between Spiral Knights and TF2 is pretty giant, but one that stands out to me is that Spiral Knights in Lockdown are really weak by default, and there's no real way to counter it effectively. We're all equal amount of sponge too (guardian has as much defense as striker by default), so it makes the game entirely about dealing damage because you can't really prevent damage. Move over to TF2 where the Heavy class can take multiple rockets to the chest and still be firing whereas many other classes can barely survive one rocket and you see the balance trade off.

TL;DR - stawp comparing TF2 and Spiral Knights. One of the games is a minigame and the other is the full game. Server Connection > money spent. Tokens still need to be earned, not bought.

Thu, 03/05/2015 - 15:31
#12
Leekcoco's picture
Leekcoco

Just pay someone for the gear you want if you don't want to play. LD can't be changed, it's already too late. For the people who invested in their gear, it's also unfair to turn the tables around on them as well. I highly doubt anyone would spend money on the gear if it wasn't needed to even out the complete disadvantage. I'd love my CE back if my UVs weren't the only thing that brings me closer to even footing due to location disadvantages, but it is what it is. Like I said, you can just pay for the gear if you don't want to grind (Crest of Almire is the same, as Fangel stated) or you can continue to "suffer". Or you can just adapt and, surprisingly, eventually start enjoying LD. I personally chose the third choice, now it's actually fun.

Thu, 03/05/2015 - 23:30
#13
Likal's picture
Likal
doop

Leek, if I had the kind of cash to buy 5* items, I wouldn't be having trouble in Lockdown due to cash differences.

Fangel, no, the problem with Lockdown is that I don't have 10 extra pips of health due to owning 5* trinkets and the slots to use them, nor do I have nigh-immunity to important status ailments due to maxed out UVs. Sure, skill ~can~ trump equipment, but that's a he** of an advantage in what would otherwise be a close fight. And not once in my life has lag benefited me. How does the Motivational go... Oh yeah. "PING: Being the scapegoat for your inadequacies since 1974." -cs_office :P

"We're all equal amount of sponge too (guardian has as much defense as striker by default)"
Also also, that's flat out wrong. Assuming all other things equal (which they aren't, which is the problem), a Guardian should have 12 more health pips than a Striker. As for the TF2 comparison, what Holy-Nightmare is getting at is that you can't go and buy an item that is flat-out ~better~. Arguments could be made that no item in TF2 is "better" than any other (at least in the same class/slot), even than the defaults. No, it's not apples-to-apples, but the point stands.
All three of us clearly believe that skill should be the limiting factor, not how much money you've pumped into your equipment, but that clearly isn't the case.

Fri, 03/06/2015 - 00:34
#14
Chaos-Mist's picture
Chaos-Mist
"TL;DR - stawp comparing TF2

"TL;DR - stawp comparing TF2 and Spiral Knights. One of the games is a minigame and the other is the full game."
"TL;DR - stawp comparing TF2 and Spiral Knights. One of the games is a minigame and the other is the full game."
"TL;DR - stawp comparing TF2 and Spiral Knights. One of the games is a minigame and the other is the full game."
- Now that I've repeated what Fangel said 3 times, you might now find it easier to read. T.T

"Leek, if I had the kind of cash to buy 5* items, I wouldn't be having trouble in Lockdown due to cash differences."
- Play more SK = earn more crowns = buy better gear + UVs = find LD a bit easier.

I personally don't feel all weapons and such are balanced, and there's generally always a forum post regarding it, but if a game encourages you to wear certain gear you have two options imo;
1. Earn it, wear it, kick some.
2. Ignore them and play your skills out to the point where you no longer need the better gear. Fangel mentioned in another thread using DVS in LD. Considering the power and ease of a GF, it should be fair to assume those players would dominate. However, if Fangel has no problem obtaining these PVP only items while using gear that isn't suited, that tells you defying the generic view of 'You can only win in LD if you go BK with Acheron, GF or Avenger while using striker-class".
You want PVP items that bad? Suck it up and earn them.

Fri, 03/06/2015 - 01:23
#15
Leekcoco's picture
Leekcoco

Playing LD takes time. Grinding for money so you can buy what you need also takes time. I'm not seeing the issue. If you hate LD then it's the perfect solution. In fact, it might end up being cheaper to buy it because considering the time it takes to heat, get orbs, and whatnot because you spend that time doing PvE instead of PvP (which you hate). Time is money.

Fri, 03/06/2015 - 07:33
#16
Rhagnarock
my 2 cents

*sigh*

So I'm a good BN player and hate LD in general, LD games are 7 minutes, can go faster, a BN game last 5 minutes, no matter what... if you *really* want to make token faster, do Blast Network.

What's important to note is the krogmo coin boost, giving 1 more token per boost, maxing at 7-8? Giving you 8 tokens when you lose, 9 tokens by winning and a maximum of 13 tokens per game. I farmed 300 krogmo coin in an afternoon and stopped. I bought a 3* stun bomb, gave it to my friend, ask him to up it, gave him ce for crafting and cr (he didn't need shinning or glowing) and I bought it for 4.5k ce + I paid for everything.

I'm missing Electron vortex but Obsidian Crusher is just way better so...

I wouldn't mind though but too many people have 500-1k krogmo coin laying around for nothing, maybe have the recipe not bound and tradable?

Fri, 03/06/2015 - 14:23
#17
Fangel's picture
Fangel
That's what I'm getting at.

Lockdown is its own problem. Lockdown is terribly unbalanced with certain pay to win abilities (however, again, skill will trump that any day), and we've thrown ideas around time and time again in this subforum. Buying tokens doesn't make lockdown better, and it's the same principal of time = recipes anyways.

If you want coins, buy krogmo coin boosters and play blast network. Your grind will be over quickly.

And guardians have the exact same defense value of a striker. Shields modify health, but a guardian with no health boosts will have less health than a striker with multiple health boosts. I say "same amount of sponge" because defense values are all at 100 by default in tier 3, where strikers should have less with guardians having more. Because you know, balance.

Your enjoyment of lockdown comes from you playing lockdown. If you're saying "omg i have to grind this AGAIN so i can get a stupid recipe to use", then don't play that minigame. We have two of them with the same rewards anyways.
Sounds like you're not playing Lockdown for fun, and since you're not looking for fun you won't have it. That really applies anywhere, if you don't seek out what you find fun you'll never really find the fun. Sure, it might not entirely be fun, but maybe you shouldn't be running striker and mimicking the other ones with max damage and ASI with +12 health plus perfect connection because, you know, you don't have that stuff, so it would be foolish to act like you do. I have more fun protecting teammates and planting traps than I ever have zipping around and slicing people with a flourish.

Fri, 03/06/2015 - 21:13
#18
Xxpapaya's picture
Xxpapaya
The papaya frowns

*In a narrator voice*
And on the day that Krogmo Coins could be bought, no one, not a single Knight, was ever seen in the Coliseum again. WHOOOO, WHOOOOOOOOOOOOO, WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO *coughs*

No, seriously, while I agree that PvP is annoying (which is why I've only played it about 2 times in 2 years) I don't think chucking Krogmo coins into a new Vendor is going to help much. If you are complaining about Lockdown, then the problem lies within Lockdown, not the distribution of Krogmo coins.

Personally, I don't believe that shiny UV items affect Lockdown all that much. I've killed a considerate amount of Strikers with my Nitronome, Shivermist, and Dark Retribution, and heck, none of them are even at their max level yet. I'm agreeing with @Fangel about server lag: I wouldn't be surprised at all if all the Strikers in Lockdown lived next to OOO HQ with state of the art Fibre-Optic cable Wifi and whatnot, but I can safely say that knowing what you are seeing on your screen is what the server is processing, is a lot more comforting than knowing that what you are seeing, is about 3 seconds behind what is actually happening.
--------------

"Let the crazy PvP people do crazy PvP things, and let PvE people just play PvE."
What happens if you have people who just want to play PvP, and not PvE? Do we start selling equipment in exchange for Krogmo coins? Do we allow equipment to be heated up via Krogmo Coins? Do we just chuck out all the stuff you can't see within PvP? Let's not start a play-style apartheid.

Fri, 03/06/2015 - 22:37
#19
Likal's picture
Likal
doop

"- Play more SK = earn more crowns = buy better gear + UVs = find LD a bit easier."

Oh, it's so obvious. How didn't I see it? I'll just build up 225k overnight for a 3 UV ticket at Punch, roll something relevant at a useful level on the first roll, then just do that four more times for the rest of my gear! I'll get right on that right away! *glare*

Everyone else, thank you for the ~actually~ useful advice of coin boosters and Blast Network. BN has some issues, but at least they aren't glaring balance issues. For what it's worth, I suggest "Sell me coins" instead of "Fix Lockdown" because I believe the former to be more likely for OOO to do, since it requires drastically less effort.

Mon, 03/09/2015 - 05:42
#20
Rectilios's picture
Rectilios
PvP doesn't even cost that

PvP doesn't even cost that much crowns to play.

Mon, 03/09/2015 - 10:12
#21
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

This thread is why we cannot have nice things. PvP doesn't have to be for just the try-hard extreme nothing but PvP genre of player, it can be a casual and fun game as well and failing that you can play bomber man for an even more casual experience. Would you rather get unique and cool rewards for trying out this change of pace for a while, or mediocre ones?

We need unique ways that go against the standard hall of heroes + farm rarities route to earn items and PvP is one of them. I would even go so far as to say that providing these unique ways of earning gear could be used to solve the bulk of the game's gear-crafting problems. For example, the original sealed sword was more literally a SEALED sword, and the player was to be required to unseal it seven times some which way. That sounds like fun to me... you know what doesn't sound like fun to me? Grinding for rarities the 20th time. It was fun to grind them for the first 2-3 weeks. The events are a great example of this, or would be if they were on more often. Like most weekends on more often.

Mon, 03/09/2015 - 11:04
#22
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
TF2 did it right, it went

TF2 did it right, it went with a F2P non P2W model that is balanced and fun. It has been up and running with a solid userbase for 8 years. SK is increasingly P2W and the userbase is dwindling.

http://steamcharts.com/app/99900#All
http://steamcharts.com/app/440#All

Mon, 03/09/2015 - 14:48
#23
Leekcoco's picture
Leekcoco
@Holy-Nightmare

Why do you keep talking about TF2? They're completely different games, with different target audiences, different budgets, different game design and different forms of "fun". If you think it's fun, go play TF2. I personally think SK is more fun. I don't understand people trying to talk down SK when you obviously still come back on this forum as if you're above everyone else.

Mon, 03/09/2015 - 16:12
#24
Cryptian's picture
Cryptian
Crunchy limbs... MMmmmm...

*cough* Blast Network *cough* *COUGH* *AHEM* COUGH* *COUGH*

If you take the time to get good at BN and play free for all, you have a high chance of getting 2 Krogmo coins each round AND your funds back.
I've made alts before where I started out with 200cr and played all the way to 10kcr only through Blast Network. At that time, I had around 200 Krogmo coins-- enough to buy the three recipes for a 5* item.

Mon, 03/09/2015 - 16:27
#25
Dragonuity's picture
Dragonuity
He's trying to compare

He's trying to compare growth.
And he's right, SK is not where it should be.
Things have only been worse after Nick left.
I always thought SK had the potential to be the next tf2 or League of Legends
But by a combination of ignorance and moneygrubbing I guess they will never learn until all the players leave

Tue, 03/10/2015 - 08:23
#26
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
......

I'm not comparing game mechanics here (that would be stupid), I'm comparing pay models. In SK if you want to do better you need to work and practice, but you can take a shortcut (cutting off months of play) yourself by spending money and buying Powerful Gear, UVs, and Trinkets.

In TF2 you can pay to get cosmetics and access to newly introduced weapons. These new weapons are no more powerful than others (in fact stock gear is considered the most powerful).

If TF2 had gone P2W then not only would the old players have far more skill, weapons, and game knowledge but they would have a straight up damage and defensive statistical advantage. The huge appeal of TF2 is that a totally new player can still walk into the game, pick up a flamethrower and still kill people with relative easy. (FYI I use soldier mostly)

Tue, 03/10/2015 - 09:28
#27
Pawsmack's picture
Pawsmack
@Fangel +1

Well spoken.

Tue, 03/10/2015 - 14:58
#28
Leekcoco's picture
Leekcoco

different target audiences, different budgets, different game design

You complain about people paying for advantages, but the thing keeping SK alive are the people paying to keep the team in work. Not a big company backing them like Valve. The system is already in place, taking away the paid-for advantages from the people who already did will only drive more people away. It's not a comparable situation. Relevant to the OP, you 'pay' for your SK experience with time - anything is achievable if you put the time into it (ie. grinding). The only people whining about P2W are the ones who never bothered to figure out how to stack wealth and work for the gear they complain about (or learn to win in LD without them). None of us started out with maxed out UVs when we first opened LD.

Tue, 03/10/2015 - 16:03
#29
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Also...

TF2 does not have a progressional gear system. There is no "end-tier" weapon. You also are stuck with a certain type of weapon in certain slots (i.e., heavy with a minigun, medic with a medigun, spy with a knife, etc). See Spiral Knights where you have a progressional gear system where certain gear will always be better than it's previous version, but if you want to bring 4 different flourishes do it.

Spiral Knights' paid content is mostly cosmetic, however you can pay for free gear or to get it faster. In doing so, you are cheating yourself of learning how to use such a weapon, plus you can't just skip to the end-game (must be a defender elite to use 5* items). Similarly, you can pay for a certain weapon in TF2 from the store instead of waiting for it to drop in the system. In the end, if you really want that final item, you really are just paying to speed up the process. (It took me ages to find a Rocket Jumper. I kept playing to find one, similar to how I play Spiral Knights to get crowns to use on my gear)

Since TF2 is not an RPG progressional system, it can use a certain weapon as a "base" (see: stock weapons), and make them super useful in the main game, which is PvP.
Since Spiral Knights is an RPG progressional PvE game, it has the "standard" gear, however it isn't always the best, and is not used as a base for a system. Gear also has to be good in its final form, or at least useful in some way, and hold its own as a weapon.

Spiral Knights is not based around PvP. Spiral Knights is based around making, upgrading, and min-maxing your gear so you can be super powerful and also suit your own playstyle. Spiral Knights PvP is only similar to TF2's PvP because they are both PvP, and both of them can have control points.

Tue, 03/10/2015 - 20:30
#30
Hennils's picture
Hennils
"requiring PvP play to gain

"requiring PvP play to gain PvE gear"?
The only useful weapon for PvE here is the Electron Vortex. Voltedge and Stagger Storm are very annoying for your teammates, while Plague Needle and Triglav deal way too less damage to be considered useful. Voltedge, Stagger Storm and Triglav can be quite nice in Lockdown, but not in the Clockwork. (Except you want to troll.)

Tue, 03/10/2015 - 22:29
#31
Alienf
only thing i have to say

PVP is barely popular nowadays, when i played a long time ago, there were a lot more people, so queue times looks horrible as hell now, (not playing a game to find out),and yeah. pretty much in pvp just spam final flouish or the ploris and u can kill most people. blast network is fun, but never see anyone playing it. OOO needs to add more to the game if they want people to come back, but i doubt they will so meh. im here just doing vana runs and working on other random shit.
i see no point in working for the recipes u can buy, except as a plus if u can ever find a match, i rather just get half a million crowns and buy the 5* item.
from someone. no idea how TF2 got into this but don't play it, dont care.

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