Spiral Knights - The Binding of Isaac

The Binding of Isaac

37 replies [Last post]

Thu, 03/12/2015 - 11:24

Fangel

I figure to celebrate us getting The Arcade as its own little subforum we might as well jump into some other game conversations!

So I figured "Hey, Spiral Knights has a sort of Legend of Zelda inspiration in design, why not talk about a game that was also inspired by Legend of Zelda?"

Alas, here we are. The Binding of Isaac is a rather gruesome game in terms of theme and appearance, but by golly is it one great game. The sequel, "The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth" has also been a ton of fun.

Anyone else here delving into the basement?

Thu, 03/12/2015 - 11:33

Skepticraven

↓

The game relies too heavily on random generation for my liking. I much more liked the way A Wizards Lizard [being another shooter rogue-like] handled random generation.

Isaac really shines for fun with the interesting synergies in the challenge modes. Normal mode gets frustratingly repetitive restarting until you get a couple items that have synergy.

That being said, I'm still waiting for a great new turn-based roguelike that really gets to the depth of strategy seen in nethack and desktop dungeons... and maybe someday actually beat nethack [without polypiling].

Thu, 03/12/2015 - 11:40

Fangel

I find that part of the fun honestly

The RNG factor really makes me have to play the game better. At this point I've 100%'d both games because they're just really easy to get into.

And I agree that the game is pretty much "Try out these synergies!". I had a run the other day where I started as Eden (The randomized character) and the first item was tiny planet. Usually I pass up on that item but I decided "why not" this time and picked it up.
I ended that run with giant scythes that would fly around me and stay still until I moved across the room, creating a wall of death as I moved towards anything. It was glorious.

Thu, 03/12/2015 - 13:33

Abelisk

I'm probably the only one who didn't like the setting and theme of B.O.I.

Thu, 03/12/2015 - 13:49

Krakob

I do own it and I did enjoy it somewhat but I never found myself really liking it. Something I found amazingly bad was that it has no gamepad support. The notice about gamepads in the controls menu was pretty rude as well. Surely, if they'd have cared about gamepad players they could've integrated support for it. I suppose that I could get Rebirth and not be troubled by that but in general I find it pretty aggrevating that the dev slapped on a €15 price tag on what's essnetially the same game as a lot of people had already bought, except it wasn't developed in such a foolish way.

Thu, 03/12/2015 - 14:14

Malware-Exe

Rebirth has gamepad support. It also has a "hard"mode now, the game runs smoother, and also has "challenges" (I think vanilla had that as well, although I i'm not so certain). some also may know about the game from Northernlion or other youtubers.

If this discussion also includes other rogue-likes, have any played "risk of rain"?

Thu, 03/12/2015 - 14:20

Fangel

First game was a flash game yeah

Rebirth was a lot of fun for me because the synergies start being really interesting. Homing brimstone is pretty much the best thing ever.
It also starts off easier than the original game, but gets harder in the end. It also runs at a rather constant 60FPS and removes a lot of the limitations that flash had.

After playing Rebirth for 200 hours (played the original for 258), I definitely view the sequel as a more polished and very well-done expansion. Well worth the money IMO.

Plus being able to leave and return to your runs is something that I've been loving as well. The last 30-40 minutes at work can be slow and it's one of the only games I can run on my crummy work laptop, so I'll boot that up, play until closing, then continue the game when I get home on my desktop.

Thu, 03/12/2015 - 14:23

Parasthesia

I'm a big fan of rebirth. I

I'm a big fan of rebirth. I never got the original but watched a ton of Northernlion playing it on youtube (would recommend, very soothing silky commentary voice) and picked it up preorder when I found i could get some brimstone horns.

I'm super pumped for the DLC, even if we don't have a concrete release date. Nowhere close to True Platinum God but i'm trying lol.

Thu, 03/12/2015 - 15:16

Fangel

Speaking of which

There's apparently also going to be an update to the original flash game sometime in the future! Rebirth's expansion looks promising, but the developers have me hyped up on both games!

On another note the soundtracks. The soundtracks! They're sooo good!

Thu, 03/12/2015 - 16:25

Malware-Exe

Parasthesia (post #7):
"I'm super pumped for the DLC"

You mean "Afterbirth" or is there another one?

Fri, 03/13/2015 - 12:10

#10

Krakob

I think I'd pick up Rebirth but not for the €15 tag it carries. As I said, I shouldn't have to pay for fixes of fundamental flaws in the game engine but given that the game is pretty excellent and it's made by an indie dev, I wouldn't really mind if it got a significant cut in the price.

Fri, 03/13/2015 - 12:38

#11

Fangel

I got it for 33% off during pre-order

It was 33% during the pre-order period, but well, you know, it's not exactly in pre-order anymore.

Luckily it looks like it's starting to be in the "sale" territory, as it was on sale a while ago, but not for too much less.
I mean granted, I'm paying for the game in American dollars, so the $15 isn't too much to me. The game is well worth that price I'll tell you that much, as the content that was added was like a bigger version of the original DLC for the flash game.

The original full price of the first game is around $8. You're pretty much just paying $7 extra for another large additional content update, bug fixes, more end-game bosses, new features... Basically it's a reasonable cost if you're comparing it to the first game, however if you already have the first game I can understand the price offset.

Fri, 03/13/2015 - 17:09

#12

Krakob

And I already have bought the first game+DLC. I don't think I'd buy Rebirth unless it were at least 66% off.

Fri, 03/13/2015 - 20:00

#13

Malware-Exe

that DLC "hard" mode tho. How is it?

Sat, 03/14/2015 - 10:50

#14

Fangel

Not all that difficult honestly

Rebirth's "hard" mode leaves a lot to be desired IMO. Basically all it does is make hearts drop less and make champion enemies spawn more frequently. It is harder for new players, but once you get far enough into the game hard mode is more of a "no fun allowed" mode when you decide to try out some wacky new combination.
In the past it made all consumables drop less frequently, but they patched that.

One of the things I really love about Rebirth is the fact that seeds exist so you can go back and try out that seed you just played. There are also special seeds such as "C0CK FGHT" which makes all the enemies fight each other, which is hilarious, and "H0H0 H0H0" which gives Isaac a little santa hat and drops snow over the floors occasionally.

Oh right, and in Rebirth, all of the final bosses are actually, like, difficult. In the original game Mom's Heart/It Lives is pretty much a pushover, Isaac/??? are pretty easy to manipulate, etc. In Rebirth the end bosses will give you a run for your money.
There's also 3 more playable characters, and one secret and really bloody hard to play as character.

Sun, 03/15/2015 - 19:10

#15

Fehzor

The game relying heavily on RNG is what makes it worth playing IMO. Of course you're going to get bored if you reset until the game carries you.

To begin with, EVERY run is doable if you're good at the game. Northernlion wins the bulk of his runs and isn't even that serious; players like Cobaltstreak have absolutely ridiculous win streaks. Isaac isn't just a "look at all the fun synergistic effects I can get wooo", it's a puzzle game that spans on infinitely and is built from all of those fun synergistic effects. They are your goal; you have to be able to puzzle them all together to get what you want- an ending.

Mon, 03/16/2015 - 07:38

#16

Skepticraven

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@Fehzor

I disagree that Isaac is a puzzle game in any respect. It is an action shooter with rogue-like dungeon generation. The only "puzzles" that I can think of are achievement-based unlockables for doing random things. Matching synergies I dont consider "puzzle" aspects. Using your same argument, all DotA style games are strictly puzzle games for item synergy to defeat your opponents. Personally, I call that strategy.

My win/death ratio was just below 1 until I unlocked the final "secret" character. The game as a action shooter isn't particularly difficult... but isn't particularly fun without getting the amusing synergizing items. My win ratio promptly dropped to almost 0 because the only risk with that character is "can I beat this room without getting hit".

Mon, 03/16/2015 - 11:54

#17

Fehzor

Perhaps I phrased that poorly, assuming that players reading what I wrote would get the gist of it without worrying about technicality- Isaac isn't strictly a puzzle game but it is like a puzzle game. It has puzzle game elements as well as overarching strategies.

A strategy would be something the player decides upon that the game allows of them, such as "find deals with the devil; use them to win" or "attempt to find deals with the angel and use the D6 on the key pieces that drop." But there are puzzles that you have to solve to get there and that can influence and even dominate your strategy; if bloody penny drops towards the beginning of the game and you're playing as Samson, your strategy is likely to shift more in the direction of attaining an IV-Bag and dominating the red heart portion of the game. You could ignore this advantage, but then you'd be losing out on that potential advantage. The early bloody penny+samson combination is a puzzle element because it forces the player to solve it by keeping 5 cents to spawn an arcade on an even floor + gamble. In this way the best strategy is typically the one that the game hands you. You could go against it and go for your "deal with the devil + win" strategy, but in doing so would compromise the bloody penny strategy you had been presented with.

Alternatively your strategy could become to use bloody penny to get health to give to the devil and not die in general; this is that element of strategy shinning through but even so, putting the puzzle pieces together and knowing how to abuse the advantages you're given is going to be just as important as having that plan.

And the game presents TONS of puzzles to the player. A fool card drops- you can use it to escape a mob trap room, curse room, boss rush mode, scout ahead a room or save time. It can be used strategically for any of these things but it is up to the player to determine how exactly each item is useful- at first glance most of the so called advantages are useless, but there are rarely objects in Isaac that are truly useless. Health down pills become health up if you have low health, bad trip becomes full health if you wait long enough, the tower and anarchist cookbook can be used in cases where you don't have bombs and to destroy a huge number of rocks, skulls, whatever.

The Spiral Knights equivalent of "puzzles" involves placing keys into gates, placing statues onto panels that open gates and hitting switches to open gates. Would you consider these to be strategic plays as well? Saying that your strategy is to press a button is about the same as saying that your strategy is to use the bloody penny on the blood bank. The big difference is that the bloody penny is a much deeper puzzle element than the switch, because of how Isaac never truly presents a "right answer".

Mon, 03/16/2015 - 13:45

#18

Malware-Exe

I had an issue today where AVG reported "isaac ng.exe" as a threat. This never happened before though. Any solutions or do I uninstall?

Also for a never ending seed, key in "BASEMENT"

Mon, 03/16/2015 - 20:43

#19

Skepticraven

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@Fehzor

I still fully disagree. Strategy is a risk/reward relationship for resolving a challenge. I do not believe that understanding underlying game mechanics should be viewed as a "puzzle" aspect. The only difference is that Isaac doesn't hold your hand on telling you how it works. Megaman didn't do that either [and is fairly famous for it], but I don't consider it a puzzle for figuring out things like boss weaknesses. You can kill the bosses without figuring out these things just as much as you can beat Isaac without using any items at all. It is just strategically better to use your available resources to your advantage.

@Topic

But hey that is just a theory... a game theory.

Tue, 03/17/2015 - 08:31

#20

Fehzor

@Game Theory

I really hate that show. They over analyze things to the max and then propagate their "findings" by making credible sounding videos. A good example being the bullet bill epsiode, where the so called game theorists attempted to approximate Mario's height (which changes quite often) and use it to apply real world physics to determine exactly how hard the bullet bills are firing at.

Quite a few of their other episodes are primarily aimed at stirring up publicity for their channel- a good example being the pyro episode, which determined based on the pyro's finger length (again using the real world comparison that quite frankly doesn't work) that the pyro was... a homosexual man. It's a pretty hot topic and there's been better arguments on whatever side, but convincing a few naive viewers (especially naive + stubborn ones that will believe such things and not let go) easily gets them publicity every time that guy that now believes them sees the whole pyro gender debate. The truth of the matter? Maybe the pyro has a determined gender identity etc. but Valve most likely doesn't want the pyro to be seen as any gender in particular and so has not defined it as a gender.

Their "does Isaac die" episode, from what I can recall was pretty light on the grand scheme of things but at least somewhere in the ballpark. There have been a lot of fan theories and Edmund has said that they're all somewhat correct. The game is metaphorical and not exact by any means.

@Puzzle Argument

Lets back this up a bit, because maybe I went a bit too far. Would you consider the rock in need of a bomb situations that arise constantly to be a puzzle? You have some amount of health, some amount of bombs, and must push the rocks into the holes to get across the gaps or blow up all the pots or whatever. You can use 2-3 bombs as a novice player to get what you need, or only 1 bomb as an experienced player. Regardless of how easy it is to solve for you, is this a puzzle element?

Tue, 03/17/2015 - 09:38

#21

Fangel

Well here's a puzzle element

Going on what Fehzor's saying, if you find the poop item, you can bomb it to create a bridge across gaps like you can a rock. In certain rooms that can be the difference of getting into that shop and getting the stopwatch and not.

Tue, 03/17/2015 - 11:38

#22

Skepticraven

↓

"Regardless of how easy it is to solve for you, is this a puzzle element?"

No. I consider the Binding of Isaac as a rogue-like shooter with risk/reward elements. I make this distinction because it is not a question of "how do I get that powerup/reward" but rather of "do I get this reward or preserve my resources for later".

Figuring out if there is a reward I have already commented upon in this post.

Tue, 03/17/2015 - 12:53

#23

Fehzor

You are giving me the giggle m8 <69

Keep in mind that we're keeping the strategy and risk/reward aspect of whether or not you should be bombing the rocks in the first place out of it. You have very clearly determined that you should be attempting to get the reward from the rock/hole formation and are in the process of determining how to do so, having never before seen this particular rock + reward formation.

You consider pushing the rocks/poop into holes using bombs and determining the best way to do so, such as to maximize your rewards to be................. a shooting element? Or a strategy of some sort? Do you go into Isaac and people ask what your strategy is going to be so you tell them "I will be placing the bomb HERE if I find THIS room."? You could call it a risk/reward scenario and it is, but does that necessarily prevent it from being a puzzle element as well? And that determining how to get items by pushing the rocks into the holes is not a matter of "how do I get that powerup/reward"? You didn't comment on that portion of the game-

"I do not believe that understanding underlying game mechanics should be viewed as a "puzzle" aspect"

Is not-

"I do not believe that understanding how to piece together underlying game mechanics to solve an objective should be viewed as a "puzzle" aspect"

Unless that was precisely what you meant by that, in which case we should really start debating puzzle platformers, and all games that claim to have "puzzle elements"- Spiral Knights being one of them.

Tue, 03/17/2015 - 15:12

#24

Skepticraven

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@Fehzor

If you wanna be picky with my wording, I will be picky with yours.

The issue that sparked this entire conversation was you calling the Binding of Isaac a puzzle game, not a game that contains puzzle elements [which I consider game mechanics]. Keep in mind, although all games likely contain puzzle elements [problems that require deductive reasoning or planning to solve] - they are not always considered puzzle games [ex: Adventure games].

The things you call "puzzles" in Isaac are not designed to have the player sit and think about how to do it every time they enter a room. It is designed to balance risk/reward and resource management. Other games, like Metroid and TLOZ, continually introduce new mechanics the player to make them sit and think about how to complete a new/more complex scenario. These are key aspects of adventure RPG games. Isaac does not even have that. You just sometimes accidentally find sequenced actions that are advantageous to completing a run and use it on the next one - a key aspect of rogue-likes.

Tue, 03/17/2015 - 15:57

#25

Fehzor

Lol I'm not being picky with your wording, that's just what you said. I'll also say that you dodged quite a bit of that.

"The issue that sparked this entire conversation was you calling the Binding of Isaac a puzzle game"

And I corrected myself to clarify what I meant by that in the next post. Admittedly, it was more of a typo than anything. Isaac is not a puzzle game. It is a roguelike shooter that relies heavily on puzzle elements. And you can try to argue that it doesn't rely heavily on puzzle elements later. We're still getting there.

"...all games likely contain puzzle elements..."

Wait wait so you disagreed with all of what I said fully and completely when I said that Isaac contains puzzle elements, and are now saying that all games including Isaac likely contain puzzle elements?

"The things you call "puzzles" in Isaac are not designed to have the player sit and think about how to do it every time they enter a room. "

The first time you play through the game or watch it played through, you can't possibly know what's ahead of you or how to place the bomb best. The rock+pits start off simply- explosive barriers that when triggered will knock rocks across pits! In case you didn't know about that, now you do.

The second tier (if that's how we're calling it) of rocks+pits do not have explosives.. perhaps I can place a bomb there? You've solved the first one and are now fully aware of your ability to blow rocks into holes AND know exactly how it works.

The third tier of rockyness is more complicated. Multiple consumables require multiple rocks to be blown in, and placing the bomb correctly can hit 2-3 of them. In order to "solve" the puzzle, you must place the bomb correctly.

Then you compound this by the other uses for bombs. Placing a bomb near a pit correctly could open a secret room and get a room drop. Using the poop correctly could net you an extra drop, or a drop to begin with. Yes, it is utilizing your knowledge of the game, but more than that the first time you see and think about these things, you are putting facts toghether to solve a puzzle. You are sitting and thinking about how to do it and because the game is randomly generated, the puzzles (unless you consider them shooters :P) are randomly solvable and randomly not solvable- it's up to you to constantly think about your situation and surroundings every time you enter a room, because you have to constantly be making decisions regarding how to progress. To some extent this is risk assessment and management. But after you've assessed your risks and determined what you need to do, it isn't risk assessment or management any longer- it's figuring out how to do things.

"Other games, like Metroid and TLOZ, continually introduce new mechanics the player to make them sit and think about how to complete a new/more complex scenario.... Isaac does not even have that."

Correct me if I'm wrong and I am sure that you will, but doesn't Isaac have a considerable number of items that you can unlock as you "progress" through the game? Like every time you defeat a major boss or challenge for the first time, you get a new item that appears occasionally.

Further, aren't there new enemies and areas that have new mechanics for you to explore? The first time you find an arcade, the first time you find a library.. and aren't these changing as you think and learn more about them?

Tue, 03/17/2015 - 18:45

#26

Skepticraven

↓

"And I corrected myself to clarify what I meant by that in the next post."

This post read: "Isaac isn't strictly a puzzle game but it is like a puzzle game. It has puzzle game elements as well as overarching strategies." Got it clear. You're saying it's not a puzzle game but it's like a puzzle game. Glad to have that clarified. Oh wait, I'm still arguing that it's not like a puzzle game. I'm stating that it's like a rogue-like action shooter and that "puzzle game" is a really bad description of it.

"Wait wait so you disagreed with all of what I said fully and completely when I said that Isaac contains puzzle elements"

Maybe you should read the rest of that sentence before quoting my post out of context... Try following the link about the hazy line for game genre classifications to group certain problem-solving situations as "not puzzle games even though they contain situations that require a problem solving skillset".

"The first time you play through the game or watch it played through, you can't possibly know what's ahead of you or how to place the bomb best...."

Sorry, not bothering reading that multiple times in an attempt to understand what you are getting at. Blown up destructables make bridges in the game. It isn't really that complex. You figure it out once, then only have to repeat it many times later to get the reward. Nothing new is added when you have to do it more than once... just more resources required to obtain the end goal. This is a key "puzzle" [game mechanic] for rogue-likes in terms of learning the tricks of navigating and looting the wealth of the dungeon.

"Correct me if I'm wrong and I am sure that you will, but doesn't Isaac have a considerable number of items that you can unlock as you "progress" through the game? Like every time you defeat a major boss or challenge for the first time, you get a new item that appears occasionally."

Doesn't change "puzzles" [game mechanics]. Just a slightly different powerup, usually for the shooter aspect of the game... You know... like... Shooter genre game mechanic power-ups [a wide variety of more, faster, and stronger projectiles!]. The other two games I listed introduce significant mechanic changes [ex: hookshot] that drastically change the range of motion of the player. Isaac's closest mechanic-changing aspect is flight, which is accessible from run #1 if you are lucky enough to encounter one of the many items that grant it.

Wed, 03/18/2015 - 10:33

#27

Fangel

Hmm.

So you're saying a puzzle stops being a puzzle once you are aware of the solution? Under that logic all the Portal games stop being a puzzle game the first run through...
Still, there are a lot of things you don't expect to work or just are really unclear puzzles, such as Uriel and Gabriel, the locations of secret rooms (which are not always the same), and smart supply management. If you only have one key, two bombs, and 16 pennies, and you want to open the shop but found the treasure room, the puzzle in that case is "can I still get into the treasure room?". If the secret room is right next to the treasure room/shop, then yes it is possible, but without being able to solve the puzzle of where the secret room is you'll either be out a shop item or a treasure room item.

I mean, I see the point of "it's not a puzzle game" because you learn it once then all you do is apply that knowledge... However that doesn't make the tiny puzzles not puzzles, just easier to solve. Some puzzles become second nature, and you will know how to solve them but you won't have the resources to be able to do so. Unless you become guppy because guppy is the solution to all problems.

Wed, 03/18/2015 - 11:24

#28

Fehzor

You've been dodging the important point here for quite some time now.

Unlockable items and items that you can find from the get go, as well as randomly generated tinted rocks, bomb-rocks and secret rooms can change the puzzles around by making them solvable in different ways for more or less reward, and you have to think about how you will be using all of the items at your disposal best. Do you see this deciding how to place the bomb/poop/tarot card/whatever correctly to get the reward as a puzzle element?

You're argument is that that's just "too easy" to call a puzzle, and mine is that difficulty does not change what something fundamentally is. The follow up to the rock puzzle example would be all of the other small puzzle like things that occur which cannot just all be lumped into "strategy", as there is some figuring out of how these things can be applied. But first, just answer the rock question.

Wed, 03/18/2015 - 12:13

#29

Skepticraven

↓

@Fangel

"So you're saying a puzzle stops being a puzzle once you are aware of the solution?"

No. I'm avoiding using the term puzzle to describe those elements of the game to begin with. Replay-ability is not particularly a strong point of puzzle games because when you play it once you already know the solution. Calling Isaac a puzzle game or puzzle-like game creates confusion. It is an action shooter rogue-like. Within rogue-likes there are often hidden advantageous decisions that you have to discover to make runs easier. The point of the game is not to find and resolve these secrets... but finding them sure makes the game easier.

You and Fehzor call them "puzzles". I call them unnamed game mechanics specific to rogue-likes because they involve the greater connection to resource management and risk/benefit mechanics.

"Under that logic all the Portal games stop being a puzzle game the first run through..."

You need to solve Portal's problems to advance in the game. Thus far, all the "puzzles" you and Fehzor have presented in Isaac are just side problems to gain additional powerups that assist you in current and future runs - a key game mechanic for rogue-likes. Action Adventure RPGs like Metroid and TLOZ both have these elements. I would not consider any Metroid or TLOZ game a puzzle game, although there are areas in which there are very strong "puzzle" components [lost woods]. The wiki article I linked to uses great wording for why they should not considered puzzle games despite having these strong "puzzle" components.

"However that doesn't make the tiny puzzles not puzzles, just easier to solve."

Puzzle, according to a dictionary, is defined as: "[noun] a game, toy, or problem designed to test ingenuity or knowledge".
All games [that I have considered a "game"] contain some form of problem that tests ingenuity or knowledge. Are they puzzle elements by definition? Sure, but that definition is broad enough to encompass all video games. Should we call them all puzzles or use better terms to describe them? Rogue-like mechanics better describes those elements. Perhaps "hidden power-up" is another good description.

@Fehzor

You've been dodging the topic found in this link.

I just held the mouse button to raise my shield and an enemy attacked me while I was still holding my shield. The enemy attack damage was neutralized by my shield. SK PUZZLE ELEMENTS CONFIRMED!

Wed, 03/18/2015 - 12:27

#30

Fehzor

I don't see why that link is relevant to your argument, but I do see you dodging the are-the-rocks-puzzle question again. Which leads me to believe that you're just salty with my for whatever reason, rather than invested in the argument.

Regarding the link however, because I will play this game with you once more- "an adventure game may involve puzzle-solving"

Which is what I'm saying about Isaac. That it involves puzzle-solving.

Wed, 03/18/2015 - 12:55

#31

Skepticraven

↓

@Fehzor

Perhaps I should quote myself a few times to repeat my answer multiple times...

This post: "I do not believe that understanding underlying game mechanics should be viewed as a "puzzle" aspect.... It is just strategically better to use your available resources to your advantage."

This post: "No."

This post: "You just sometimes accidentally find sequenced actions that are advantageous to completing a run and use it on the next one - a key aspect of rogue-likes."

This post: "Try following the link about the hazy line for game genre classifications to group certain problem-solving situations as "not puzzle games even though they contain situations that require a problem solving skillset"."

This post: "Are they puzzle elements by definition? Sure, but that definition is broad enough to encompass all video games. Should we call them all puzzles or use better terms to describe them? Rogue-like mechanics better describes those elements."

... Guess that covers all the posts I've made in response to that question.

[sarcasm]I guess you're right. I'm avoiding answering that question. [/sarcasm]

"Which is what I'm saying about Isaac. That it involves puzzle-solving."

Except that it's not.

"Admittedly, it was more of a typo than anything. Isaac is not a puzzle game. It is a roguelike shooter that relies heavily on puzzle elements."

You keep backing up further and further from calling it a puzzle. Far enough to call it containing little logic puzzles, which I clarify that I call them rogue-like mechanics because calling them puzzles is too generic and not descriptive at all. I wouldn't describe a game as "a roguelike shooter that relies heavily on rogue-like mechanics."

My sarcastic comparison with SK's action elements being puzzle elements from my viewpoint is as absurd as calling rogue-like elements puzzle elements.

Wed, 03/18/2015 - 13:16

#32

Fangel

Ah.

Well solving a problem can be called solving a puzzle essentially. I wouldn't call The Binding of Isaac a puzzle game - I describe it as a cutesy dungeon-crawler rouge-like. Doesn't mean there aren't puzzle elements in it, because there certainly are...

I think what Fehzor is getting at however is that a randomly generated puzzle should still be considered a puzzle, however this game is about crying on things. It would be silly to assume the whole game is a puzzle game, but it would also be silly to assume the puzzles in the game are not puzzles simply because the game is a rouge-like. It's not like a game has to be one thing or another, it can be a mix of several things.

The game isn't a puzzle game but it involves puzzles. Similarly, Half-Life 2 isn't a puzzle game but by golly does it have puzzles. Although, Half-Life 2 is a linear game...

However solitaire and in general most card games involve a puzzle to them. Same with other simple games like minesweeper and Sudoku. Those are puzzle games that are replayable, and you learn from them how to better play the puzzles that are new. Heck you might find yourself in exactly the same situation sometimes and hopefully you learned a bit from the last time!
Or maybe RNG just hates you this time.

Wed, 03/18/2015 - 13:54

#33

Fehzor

Well my point is that Isaac has many small puzzle elements that fit together, and that in doing so is heavily based on them. The rocks were just an example of one of the many small puzzle elements found in the game, which I chose to use as a starting point. Is that really saying so much?

Thu, 03/19/2015 - 06:05

#34

Sonosuke

I like Lost World because it's way more fun than Metroid Prime

Have you guys seen the endings for Rebirth? I mean holy hell (wasn't intentional, but rolling with it), some of them are pretty morbid.

Thu, 03/19/2015 - 10:44

#35

Fangel

The final ending. ;-;

The endings are honestly really powerful. The Lamb ending actually gave me a flashback to a really really eerie reoccurring childhood nightmare I had.

But the final final ending? Sweet jeezums, the noises...

Thu, 03/19/2015 - 15:10

#36

Fehzor

Yeah the endings were amazing! Edmund definitely did a great job with them.

Sun, 04/12/2015 - 14:43

#37

Addy

I'm like a month too late but

I'm like a month too late but I think part of the reason why the original game lacked gamepad support is because of the Flash engine. Apparently that caused a lot of problems in development. But Rebirth is everything I ever wanted BoI to be and more. I was playing a ton of it when it first came out but sorta faded out on it. Kinda wanna get back into it but I'm rusty now. :'c

Edit: used this thread as inspiration to get back in and finally unlocked/beat the Chest. :>

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The Binding of Isaac