Simple thing: Phantom's sword should be avaiable for players
Phantom Sword
Thu, 06/25/2015 - 02:37
Thu, 06/25/2015 - 09:29
#2
Hmmm..
Why does it look so close to faust? And i don't mean the color scheme.
Thu, 06/25/2015 - 09:40
#3
........maybe.....
Curse is one of the most powerful status in the game as such it is only available through weapons in the Faust and Gran Faust, both of which only have curse chance on the combo finish and on the long to charge and somewhat hard to aim charge attack.
If it was to be put on a Cutter style blade it would have to only inflict Curse on the last hit of the charge attack (flinch rate between WHB and DVS). This would make getting the Curse difficult, and risky. It would still be an amazing shadow weapon to have even if the charge was almost never used.
@ Blandaxt
That is the weapon model for the Phantom's old sword, currently it's sword more resembles the FOV.
Thu, 06/25/2015 - 11:52
#4
Yes...
I agree to a shadow/curse cutter.
Honestly, having it inflict minor curse rarely would be good enough, and inflict a stronger curse on the charge. Slight chance at minor curse on normal swings still means you'll be flailing in the face of monsters, and if they're slimes or gremlins, you're bound to get hit a few times if you're not careful.
Minor curse is something we currently do not have in the game. It would be wonderful if we could get a weapon with minor curse on it. Curse would be much more balanced in a lower strength anyways...
Thu, 06/25/2015 - 12:52
#5
Came up with a similar idea a bit of a while ago, but I don't remember if I'd posted it here or not.
Ghostly Striker (4-star Cutter line sword): Attack speed: Very High, Shadow damage: High, Slight chance of causing Moderate CURSE
Spectral Striker (5-star Cutter line sword): Attack speed: Ultra, Shadow damage: Very High, Slight chance of causing Moderate CURSE
Ideally, these swords would have the same attack pattern(s) as the Wild Hunting Blade or Dread Venom Striker, with the exception that the basic attack would be a six-hit combo, as opposed to the regular ten-hit combo of the other blades. The charge attack would be a quick two-hit combo followed by a final slash with a forward lunge, the final slash itself launching one (Ghostly) or three (Spectral) shadowy orbs that each have the same chance of causing the aforementioned Curse status upon hitting their target(s), similar to the Phantoms' own charge attacks.
Thu, 06/25/2015 - 19:03
#6
@Holy-Nightmare
Curse is one of the most powerful status in the game
Just a random question, why do you believe that curse is the most powerful status in the game?
Thu, 06/25/2015 - 20:15
#7
@ Hexzyle
It's been given only to 2 weapons in the game (3 at one point but then they nerfed the sealed sword).
Only a handful of enemies can deal that status, these tend to be tougher than most monsters
Carnavons - shielded backs plus capable of dealing 2 statuses fire and curse
Black Kats - Event only, higher HP and summoning abilities
Margrel - Event related, can deal 2 statuses poison and curse, and has summoning abilities
Darkfire Vanaduke - Shadow lair related, deals 2 statuses Stun and curse, added status resists (freeze namely)
Almirian Shadow Guards - Danger Mission, Rank 10-2 mission, and Shadow lair only monsters
Phantoms - above average combat style and practical immortality
Curse is a devastating status (not released as Haze bomb like sleep wasn't released) and it's power is dependant more on the enemy attacking rather than a timer so I guess it's damage is more variable than fire or shock. Still, even if it isn't the MOST powerful it is extremely rare.
Fri, 06/26/2015 - 04:23
#8
A shadow cutter would be a
A shadow cutter would be a bad idea. Cutters right now are unique in how they are normal damage and a 2-hit per swing sword. This has a huge impact on how its damage is calculated, and changing either of those properties (like making typed damage cutters or removing the ghost swing and adding the damage to the other hit) would destroy what the Cutter is right now.
1. Normal damage means monsters actually resist it quite well, in numbers, it would be 131 normal defense. A vulnerable monster has 65,5 defense against the damage it's weak to. (Numbers from a forum thread by Zeddy)
2. The Cutter's attack style is actually 5 hits, that each consist of a slash and a ghost hit. Having 2 hits for each click means that monsters get to put their defense to use twice. That means Cutter's base damage has to be a lot higher than its effective damage you see when hitting the monsters.
For example: a flourish that has base damage 365.5, will deal 300 damage to a beast. A cutter that does 140+50 damage with its hit, would have a base damage of 452 (140+131+50+131).
As you can see, that hypothetical Cutter has less effective damage (140+50) than the hypothetical Flourish (300 vs beast/fiend or 234.5 against neutrals). Its base damage is a lot higher though (452 vs 365.5), which means that when you apply a form of damage bonus, the cutter's effective damage will go up a lot more compared to the flourish. That also means that DVS benefits a lot from its own poison, since monsters have a lot of defense against DVS.
Making a typed cutter could end up 2 ways:
1. With the same base damage as Dread Venom Striker (which is high as described above), a typed cutter would be blatantly OP. It would have the same base damage but only get 65.5(x2) defense instead of 131(x2) put against it. It would also ruin a perfectly fine and unique normal sword (DVS).
2. They could lower Cutter's base damage to prevent situation 1, but that would remove how it currently benefits a lot more from damage bonus than other weapons, including the DVS' synergy with its own poison. It would also be a nerf to DVS, which is balanced right now.
Also, I highly doubt OOO doesn't realise all this and made it exactly to be like this. I would be really surprised if the fact that Poison was put on DVS was a coincidence. A curse/fire/shock/.. cutter wouldn't have the same synergy with the high base damage, so it wouldnt be as interesting. If you are interested, I wrote a guide on this on my userpage on the wiki
Fri, 06/26/2015 - 06:22
#9
Fire Cutter?
Fri, 06/26/2015 - 07:53
#10
@Holy-Nightmare
TBH, you only named why the monsters that deal curse are dangerous, not why curse itself is dangerous.
Curse is deadly to knights because the ratio of monster health to player damage is extremely high, meaning we have to dish out a lot of attacks to clear a level (also counting attacks that miss)
Curse to monsters? Not so much, I believe. It doesn't deal constant damage since monsters only really attack when they have a shot at you, and that's rarely, and that's also with a massively long windup. Additionally, the ratio of monster damage to player health is very low, so monsters only have to dish out a couple of attacks to clear a party (also counting attacks that miss)
It certainly deals damage at a far less reliable rate than something like Fire or Shock, that's for certain.
Except turrets, but every status affects turrets the most (Since turrets are perpetually attacking, they suffer more than any other mob by shock because of more interrupted attacks, freeze because of more attacks that miss, stun because their constant barrage is slowed, and poison because their barrage is made non-threatening)
@Waterbeat-Forums
I raise you three counterpoints to your "typed cutter with its multiple low-damage hits would do jack all to monsters with defense":
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Grim_Repeater
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Sentenza
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Dark_Retribution
1. With the same base damage as Dread Venom Striker (which is high as described above), a typed cutter would be blatantly OP. It would have the same base damage but only get 65.5(x2) defense instead of 131(x2) put against it. It would also ruin a perfectly fine and unique normal sword (DVS).
Blatantly OP? "Ruin a perfectly fine and unique normal sword"? The suggested change isn't for the DVS. The suggested change is for a new sword, possibly from the cutter, that deals curse.
Or are you implying that people would use a Shadow Cutter over Acheron? Pffft. Like anyone would use any sword other than the Acheron. (+Combuster and Flourish for the other two damage types)
The Shadow Cutter wouldn't get the poison bonus that the DVS gets (which you glorify so much, for good reason) so I don't know what your problem is there, and the Shadow Cutter would be worthless against Greavers, Trojans and Devilites (which is the whole reason many people including me make a DVS in the first place)
Fri, 06/26/2015 - 10:58
#11
Those weapons already exist,
Those weapons already exist, therefore they have been balanced by OOO like they saw fit (not saying that 2 of those aren't OP, it's really a different subject). If you made a typed cutter and changed no damage values the cutter currently has, it would be OP. Cutters base damage is high, but it is kept in check by the fact that its a normal damage weapon. Giving it a different damage type with that same base damage, will have 2 monster families that cant keep its damage in check with their defenses.
About the type: I meant that if they did something like they did with blasters, it would ruin a perfectly fine and unique normal sword, because everyone would use the stronger typed variants, thus making DVS obsolete.
"The Shadow Cutter wouldn't get the poison bonus that the DVS gets (which you glorify so much, for good reason) so I don't know what your problem is there" => that's not really a problem, but DVS is unique because of its mechanics and how it really synergises with damage bonus and defense reduction, so it's cool that it has poison. My point is that if they were to make a cutter with a combination of suggestions I have read on the forums (combining the ghost and regular hit into just 1 hit and typed damage and without poison), it sounds to me like it would be a strong sword, but nothing more than that. It would be just another sword. Basically a sword that is no different from other weapons except by its attack pattern that is faster. So like a faster brandish with 5 hits in the combo that deal less damage. That is pretty boring compared to what we have now in the DVS, its a completely different playstyle than with a typical sword loadout. (Keep in mind some of the suggested changes were also for DVS itself, which would mean ruining the sword in my opinion. I know those weren't in this thread, but I wanted to mention them because I felt it was relevant)
Fri, 06/26/2015 - 11:32
#12
About the type: I meant that if they did something like they did with blasters, it would ruin a perfectly fine and unique normal sword, because everyone would use the stronger typed variants, thus making DVS obsolete.
I wasn't aware that people used any of the Blaster lines at all. Griffin (and Callahan) are more satisfying to use (one because of dakka, the other because of pow factor), and the Nova and Umbra Drivers have way higher DPS. If you divide 0% by four you still get 0%.
(Keep in mind some of the suggested changes were also for DVS itself, which would mean ruining the sword in my opinion. I know those weren't in this thread, but I wanted to mention them because I felt it was relevant)
So they're relevant to your idea of cutters, but not the idea of a cutter that I suggested, which was merely an addendum to the original idea of the Phantom Sword.
So not really relevant at all... :/
Fri, 06/26/2015 - 11:59
#13
Err...
We're discussing a new weapon 'ere, not a revamp of an old one.
My thoughts are that we should get at least 1 type of non-normal damage cutter. Be it a shadow curse cutter (like this suggestion), or changing the wild hunting blade to be piercing. DVS is in a perfectly fine situation where it is, however WHB is in a sorry spot for what it could be.
Instead of focusing on the suggestion at hand, you seem to be focusing on other suggestions and bringing them all up in here, where they are not being discussed or even brought up.
Fri, 06/26/2015 - 12:14
#14
@hexzyle: Those were relevant
@hexzyle: Those were relevant to me because I wanted to be complete in my explanation. Also, the cutter discussion isnt merely an addendum to the original idea of the phantom sword when nearly every reply is about the phantom sword being turned into a shadow cutter.
Fri, 06/26/2015 - 12:41
#15
@ water
"If you made a typed cutter and changed no damage values the cutter currently has, it would be OP."
I would like to point you towards the new Blaster Lines and their type damage.....
Or perhaps you still want your Normal Max resist armors to still mean something http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/110589
Sat, 06/27/2015 - 06:30
#16
@holy-nightmare
you completely missed the point
This one? :P
Nevertheless, yes please. Preferably change it to be a cutter line upgrade rather than the three hit sword it is (otherwise it'd just be to the Nightblade what the Fang of Vog is to the Combuster)
Actually now that I think about it, a shadow cutter weapon that debuffs enemies with curse seems to fall exactly into the cutter style of things.