Spiral Knights - Feedback Thread: Gear Lists

Feedback Thread: Gear Lists

25 replies [Last post]

Thu, 06/25/2015 - 10:54

Dracora-Speaking

Hello! A very large project has been under construction for many months and has finally been published - we want to know what you think, because these lists are for you! We are looking for feedback on the recent changes we've made to the following pages:

-Armor
-Helmets
-Shields
-Trinkets

-Bombs
-Handguns
-Swords

After reading the "about gear lists" guide near the top of the lists, please state any concerns, compliments, and criticisms here. Most importantly, report any mistakes you see! These lists were made by volunteers with the goal of making items with desired properties easier to find and understand for new players and veterans alike.

If you wish to see the technical changelog of this project, please read through this enormous thread .

===============================================================================================
Known suggestions/issues:

-Add and maintain an item count to the page. Like, there are X number of swords total, X of which are 5-star, X of which are 4-star, etc.

-Elaborate on what the bar values mean. We don't actually know, sorry! Best we can provide is "this has more or less" and damage tables on individual pages. Someone might be working on figuring out what the bar values (quantified or not) actually mean in the face of heating and depth influence!

-Sort the list in a binary manner, or not? Reasons and logic outlined here, please leave feedback about this issue in this thread!

-Small browsing devices such as phones or certain laptops will not be big enough to display the table using default font size in the most aesthetically pleasing manner, but the data is still there.

Thu, 06/25/2015 - 11:13

Sciger

So, I'm posting with only the armors page finished, so I can compare between the old version and new version. The new version is a lot cleaner and gives more info up front with nice, shiny icons to tell you what it resists or is vulnerable to and rolling over the icons tells you how much. It also allows you to organize by status so if you want to find something with say, fire res, you can do that by clicking on the little icons above each status on the table.

Overall, I'm really happy to see this new format, it's fantastic.

Thu, 06/25/2015 - 17:11

Bopp

some notes

The tortofist guns are labeled as being in the "Shard Cannon" family. Where does this term come from? And what about the "Boomerang" on Overcharged Mixmaster, "Orbiting" on Dark Retribution, etc.?

Is there any system to the default sort order? For example, the swords don't seem to be in alphabetical order, or ordered by damage type, or anything like that.

Thu, 06/25/2015 - 18:15

Dracora-Speaking

Bopp

Please read the "about the gear lists" linked to in the OP as well as located above the lists on each linked-to page - the default order is by date of release, alphabetical if tied, to the best of our knowledge. I think we forgot to mention the alphabetical part. Fixing now. Ah yes, the alphabetical part was mentioned in documentation, but not the note. Weird.

The terms for combat style could be improved. What would you suggest? Just a fragment of the item's name? Like "Mixmaster?" For some we wanted to be descriptive, to see what was liked best - most are item names. We will stick to one or the other in the end, likely item names. But the combat style just didn't seem descriptive for some of these when relying on just names. "Buster?" Really? While it literally is a shard cannon. But then again, we could just add a table describing (or even showing animations) of combat styles, and their names should consistently be derived and otherwise not need to be...descriptive, relying on the cheapest available item that uses that style. We'll need more opinions.

Thu, 06/25/2015 - 19:02

Sciger

@Bopp

As a user (AKA someone who doesn't do anything to contribute to the wiki), I personally don't mind an initial mixed up default order since one can simply click a button to order it alphabetically, by resistances, status, etc.

Also, I think the term 'shard cannon' for the torto guns fits pretty well. You can't just call its combat style 'antigua' or 'blaster' because it doesn't match that style. It needs its own description because there aren't any other guns like it in the game. Same goes for weapons like the mixmaster and dark retribution, they're truly unique in how they work as a weapon, not just another blaster or haze bomb.

Thu, 06/25/2015 - 19:04

Bopp

ah, got it

Sorry about the release date thing. Sadly for you it will not be the last time someone fails to read About Gear Lists.

It's hard to get the styles done in any objective, official way. Frequently there is a subjective, consensus term though. Everyone agrees that the haze bombs are haze bombs, even though they don't descend from Haze Bomb anymore.

Based on their 5-star names I would call the tortodrone gun style Tortofist, Fist, Tortodrone Fist, or something like that.

For unique weapons I would either leave them without a style or name the style after the lowest-star version of the object. For example, Dark Retribution's style could be Dark Reprisal. This mirrors how Combuster's style is Brandish. It may not always work, though.

I don't feel strongly about this issue. Just listing some quick ideas.

Thu, 06/25/2015 - 23:52

Etemraik

Celestial Saber and Brandishes

It would be good if you could mention that the status conditions caused by these swords are only caused by the charge attack.

Fri, 06/26/2015 - 07:31

Dracora-Speaking

Etemraik

Yes it would! Many players (including myself) have to rely on individual pages describing attacks of weapons to understand where the status comes from.

If sk ever gets really complicated, we could put in a status column for regular and charge attack in the main sortable lists, but as the game is now, this would be a lot of empty space! There's plenty of room in the ability column for this information. We could state the intensity, and in parenthesis, say if it's regular (lol), charge, or both (which is rare, but a thing - example obsidian carbine). For bombs...well, this should be intuitive. We don't have to say which one at all ;P. This is sort of already in place for FoV, GF, and Faust.

I think we are definitely going to need a table explaining combat style above each weapon list (maybe even shields if they ever do more different kinds of bashes).

Columns:

combat style name - regular description (not for bombs) - regular attack example visual (not for bombs) - charge description - charge example visual

Fri, 06/26/2015 - 10:19

Thepc

@Dracora-Speaking

This pages really give you a good overview, i can't think of any improvements :o
Thank you for all the hard work and time you put into this pages, they really turned out great!
Keep up the good work ;)

Sat, 06/27/2015 - 02:47

Saltyrockmonkey

Gear List

The new design is awesome and very appealing to the eye. I would say to make things bland in more cleaner use the black colour behind the x36 pictures so it looks cleaner.

The only thing i want to be added is the attack power bars asi it gives a very quick overview of the gear rather then having to hover over each picture.
Please carry on the good work you're doing. Without you, many of us would be lost in the game.

Sat, 06/27/2015 - 07:12

#10

Dracora-Speaking

Ill-Gamerxgirl-Ill

The bars are in show/hides for now (in the name column), so they're there if you need them - if these bars were in the columns, we'd make the table even wider than it already is! But we have been looking into a show/hide "all" option off-hand for a while - our version of media wiki is pretty old, and they say they likely won't update it in general for a while. So we'll see! In the meantime, it's easy to pop open a few of the show/hides if you're using a mouse after sorting them together to compare bars. But it might not be so easy for phone users. We don't get a ton of feedback from them.

As far as the black color goes, yes. That's an easy fix for us to do and won't be a problem :D For the curious, it is a leftover from when we were deciding whether or not to use icons, in the early designing process of the list system. Green was elemental, etc. It will be black, or "default," as soon as the wiki decides to display recent changes. The edit comment summary for this change in the template history is "set text color to default."

Sun, 06/28/2015 - 03:56

#11

Boneblinder

Those pet shield icons.

When I place my mouse on them, instead of showing it's power, it's showing number's like "81", etc. If this is fixed, the page would be good.

Goog work Dracora, keep it up :)

Sun, 06/28/2015 - 06:08

#12

Dracora-Speaking

Boneblinder

That number represents the pixel count of an item's stats bar. I'm not sure what you mean by "instead of showing its power," and "fixed," because that number is a quantified value of the power indicated by an item's stats bar (which we believe is largely arbitrary anyway). It's not like we just chose random numbers. So unless you mean damage (which we can't use uniformly for all items - armor/helmets and shields when not bashing do not produce actual numbers unless you quantify through pip loss, and that is difficult to do consistently with depth/heat/monster dmg power, and anyway this data isn't complete for many weapons), I'm very confused by this feedback.

Sun, 06/28/2015 - 12:41

#13

Ciardha

My opinion

I think it's neat! It makes it way easier to navigate through than how it used to be.
Regarding the ''attack power bars''. I think hiding them all is a better choise, because if all were showing the table would look like a mess.
The one thing im considering, which is a minor thing and most likely won't happen because it's too much work, but, doesn't it make more sense if it goes from 1* to 5* and not the other way around?

The thing is that, if you look at the list, don't you expect to see the weakest first, and then the strongest last? that's how i think about it anyways.
Anyways, besides all of this, I am happy that this project is somewhat finished and i'm really happy with the result. Good job Novaster, keep up the great work!

For a better and greater wiki,
~Ciardha

Sun, 06/28/2015 - 13:50

#14

Dracora-Speaking

Ciardha

You mean have the entire page go 12345 instead of 54321? Hmm. This might not be convenient for most players, who use the lists to plan. If a lot of people want to flip it, we will.

Mon, 06/29/2015 - 03:36

#15

Boneblinder

I'm sorry for the lousy

I'm sorry for the lousy feedback, I was feeling really sleepy, but didn't want to sleep for some unusual reason. I was posting on the forum's and this happened.

The page is fabulous, good job Novaster.

Mon, 06/29/2015 - 04:27

#16

Dracora-Speaking

Boneblinder

Well, let us know if you find any issues or have strong preferences. This thread is about fixing issues and seeing if we can fine-tune to preferences - if it's not a huge change with little gain anyway. I am very glad people (who weren't involved in its development, too) like it in general.

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 01:08

#17

Altmetal

the volc sala mask and armour

the volc sala mask and armour were missing the fire res from the table, i added those in.

And the tables are beutiful, good job!

Thu, 07/09/2015 - 10:19

#18

Dracora-Speaking

Thanks!

More eyes are appreciated for projects like these.

Thu, 07/09/2015 - 16:33

#19

Falminar

Errors found!

The Deadly Shard/Splinter/Dark Matter Bombs are all labeled as Elemental when they're really Normal/Piercing/Shadow.
The Autogun is labeled as Piercing when it's really Normal. I'll look through armor and helmets later.
The Flamberge and Fierce Flamberge are labeled as "Fair chance of causing moderate fire" when it's really "Slight chance of causing minor fire".
The Rigadoon and Daring Rigadoon are labeled as "Slight chance of causing moderate stun" when it's really "Slight chance of causing minor stun".
The Jalovec is labeled as "Slight chance of causing strong freeze" when it's really "Slight chance of causing moderate freeze".
The Cold Snap, Firecracker, Static Flash, all Haze type bombs, the Big Angry Bomb, the Irontech Destroyer, the Electron Vortex, the Obsidian Crusher, the Electron Charge, the Electron Bomb, and the Irontech Bomb don't have labels for their effects.
The Crystal type bombs don't have labels for some of their effects.
The Boosted Plate Mail's status resistances/weaknesses aren't shown.
Vitasuit Deluxe says "Health Bonus: +2" when in-game it says "Unusual Health Bonus" (displayed as "unusually high health bonus" on the wiki). Could be intentional.

Fully checked:

Swords
Guns
Bombs
Shields
Trinkets
Armor

Thu, 07/09/2015 - 16:38

#20

Dracora-Speaking

Thanks!

Fixes should show up soon. Appreciate the help!

Regarding vitasuits, ancient plate armor/helm: While HP bonuses are considered uniform "abilities" for most armor/helmet items, we want to call attention to the few items that behave a bit differently. But the value can change with heat level and can be different per item - so it's difficult to have a consistent image for everything with variable hp behavior, while other actual abilities are very consistent and are simple screen shots. So, we just say "unusual" in the image for consistency as well as to call attention to the item, and hope users look at the actual value(s) nearby on the item's page. I will change the wording in the lists to be consistent with the image, though. Should we state the heat level bonuses or leave it on the main page? When it comes to health pips and "abilities," things can be silly.

Humorously, the heat bonus from the forge shows up as very similar to an ability in the tooltip, if you happen to get one. This just emphasizes the need for flexibility when it comes to wiki, game terminology, and user understanding of patterns in relation to what's displayed.

Still can't believe they've not fixed the Driftwood vs. Redwood trinket values.

Does anyone have a lvl 10 heated scarlet shield? Need to check something.

Thu, 07/09/2015 - 15:46

#21

Falminar

Dracora

Keep checking this thread occasionally. I'll update that post until I replace "Fully checked: ____________" with "All checked."

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 01:10

#22

Altmetal

I have lvl 10 scarlet shield,

I have lvl 10 scarlet shield, but it has a normal high uv. I suppose you wanted to check a no uv-d one?

Sat, 07/11/2015 - 08:33

#23

Dracora-Speaking

wew

RL was very busy yesterday!

Yes, I'll look at the level 10 shield.

Wed, 07/29/2015 - 18:18

#24

Falminar

Bump.

Spiral Demo Suit (2*) has elemental resistance, but it isn't shown on the armor page.

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^ Spam because I'm bored.

Wed, 07/29/2015 - 18:32

#25

Dracora-Speaking

D:<

Spam is illegal!

Have helmets been checked?

Value should show up now, thanks :)

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Feedback Thread: Gear Lists