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Some tweaks that could fix the Sleep status

26 replies [Last post]
Mon, 06/29/2015 - 19:15
Jessecho's picture
Jessecho

I've been seeing a lot of threads lately relating to the forgotten Sleep status, where the OP wasn't aware of how broken it currently is. As a response, I thought I might explore a few ways to actually fix Sleep and make it a more balanced status. First, however, we must ask one question:

What is wrong with Sleep?

Short and to the point, Sleep is even more overpowered than Freeze on steroids. You can't attack, shield, move, or use Remedy or health capsules to heal yourself while under it, and there's no getting out of it until the timer runs out; getting hit doesn't wake you up. However, as overpowered as it is, it can become a knight's best friend, because you heal while sleeping, so you can just have your friends hold off the Slooms while you recover all of your health. It's broken in more ways than one.

So here's where the solutions come in:

The new Sleep

+ Before going to Sleep, you enter a 3-4 second period of Drowsiness. Nothing is changed while you're Drowsy, but it gives you a chance to use a Remedy Capsule to get rid of the Sleep, or if you're stuck in the middle of an angry mob of enemies, you have the chance to get away to a safer area
+ When you're Sleeping, your defenses get fortified by 33% (possibly 50% in Tier 3), and your resistance to all other statuses get a similar buff
+ HP regeneration is gone
+ When you wake up, you're invincible for a quick few seconds; this is so that if you get caught in Sloombargo's mist and it isn't gone before you awaken, you have a chance to get away instead of getting put right back to Sleep
+ You can't have Sleep status be re-inflicted; meaning, if you get hit with a Sleep-based attack while you're Sleeping, and the timer is on 4, the timer won't go back up to 8
+ If you get hit with a strong attack or get hit too frequently, you immediately wake up with a few health pips restored (not enough to make the status easily exploitable)
+ You can't be asleep for more than 9 seconds; that's the absolute strongest it can get even at Depth 27 and 28
+ Overall, Sleep has a slightly lower chance of being inflicted on players than any other status (unless I eventually cook up a Curse fix) which isn't enough to completely nerf its effect, but enough to keep you from constantly being put to Sleep when you're fighting a swarm of Slooms
+ The animation is slowed down a bit; it looks too jittery at the moment
+ AMENDMENT: With Sleep resistance from the Royal Jelly Set and UVs, the amount of hits it takes to wake up is decreased. Thanks to Jenova for pointing this out

With these tweaks, more Sleep-themed enemies and levels, in addition to the existing Slooms and Starlight Cradle, could come about in the Clockworks. It would be a waste if only two enemies could deal it and only five levels featured it, anyway, that would make it an even more wasted status than Curse. "Sleeping Dogs," the Sleep-based Gun Puppies, could be like Red Rovers and spray a trail Sleep mist similar to the Sloombargo's, rather than fire bullets.

Now, with improvements to enemies' use of Sleep also comes improvements to players' use of it. The Sleep Vial as it stands is garbage, because Freeze can do what Sleep does much better, and Freeze also doesn't HEAL THE ENEMIES. However, if using this status against enemies and it boosted their defense by 33 or 50%, it would still be largely inferior to Freeze, wouldn't it? Here's what I propose for the version of Sleep we can use with Vials and weapons: Same alterations as above, except no invulnerability period upon waking, no health restoration if the enemy gets hit too hard or frequently and defense buff isn't as high. This is so that it's a force to be reckoned with when using it against foes, and not completely worthless like the Sleep Vials are now.

In regards to Sleep-themed weapons: I want a Sleep-based Sealed Sword line that has the same self-infliction as Faust. With the above tweaks, Sleep becomes a pretty beastly status in my opinion, and should be relatively limited like Curse is now with the Faust line. Another idea for a Sleep-based weapon I kind of liked can be found here: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/108565

I thought this up in a relatively short amount of time, so forgive me if I messed up a few parts.

Mon, 06/29/2015 - 22:39
#1
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Hmm.

One thing that bothers me time and time again with players bringing up sleep is they take the health regeneration into account. If you are wearing gear appropriate to the tier, sleep isn't going to heal you to full. In fact, the damage dealt to you (that inflicts sleep) is much more than what you recover. If you take 8 pips of damage, you aren't going to recover 8 pips from being asleep. At most you'll recover, say, 2 and a half. Sleep vulnerability is the only offsetting part, however that's just plate stuff, and not going to be all that big.

Anyways, this fix isn't too bad. Personally I've believed in something a bit different for a while, in that being inflicted by sleep will immobilize you. If you take a large amount of damage (i.e., 33% of your current health or more), you will instantly wake up being drowsy, which means you cannot be inflicted with sleep and your attacks and movement are slowed. If you are asleep for the whole duration, you will wake up refreshed, and thus heal a little bit ( 15% of the original damage taken) and be unable to be inflicted with the status for another 4 seconds.

The duration of being asleep is affected by resistance to the status. Drowsiness is elongated (only the negative effects!) with negative resistance and refreshment is quickened with negative resistance, only giving you a second or two to escape after waking up naturally. You also heal less when waking up naturally, only healing as low as 7.5% of the damage you took. Positive resistance reacts in the opposite manner, giving you a longer grace time when waking up, lowering drowsiness time, and healing you more when you wake up (up to 30% of damage taken).

Now against monsters it will be similar. They are put to sleep and immobilized. They will regenerate health as they currently do, but a bit less than before. Enemies that are fully rested (i.e., didn't take critical damage) will wake up with boosted stats and immune for 4 seconds. Enemies that do take critical damage will react similarly to knights, becoming immune to the status for 2 seconds and attacking/moving slower.

This makes freeze still optimal for holding enemies in place, however sleep can be used to shut down targets temporarily, as long as you deal with them again.

Mon, 06/29/2015 - 22:53
#2
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

What I'm wondering is why we need the sleep status in game? What purpose does re-adding it serve?

The whole ordeal can be related to an old T-Model Ford sitting in a car yard, all rusty and the engine is totally frigged. We keep getting people who aren't mechanics (not developers) asking about the car, looking at the car, drawing pictures of themselves driving the car, even going as far as buying paint and petrol for the car, but not doing anything about it because:

1. They're not mechanics, so they can't do anything about it
2. They already own a car, so they don't need a freaking T-Model Ford because they have no garage to keep it in
3. It's bloody expensive to repair old cars, especially when they've decayed to the point that this one has, you might as well just build one from scratch
4. Even if they did have a garage, the T-Model Ford would not go as fast as, be as fuel efficient as, or even really look as good as a modern car.

Tue, 06/30/2015 - 18:44
#3
Spark-Of-Hope's picture
Spark-Of-Hope
wait what about

sleep being a random effect that can result in(I'm making these really short so...)

knightmare- the knight can sleep walk but still takes damage from some bad dreams

good knight's sleep- regen but can't move

and sleepwalking - where the player has random controls and walk slowly but faster than stun

Thu, 07/02/2015 - 08:31
#4
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
hmm..

@Fangel:

Your fixes makes sleep more a stall like freeze with positive end result where the status heals you. It's pretty balanced, but the biggest problem is that it functions same as freeze. I think we should create a whole new function for sleep so that it does not resemble the behaviors of existing statuses.

Thu, 07/02/2015 - 10:04
#5
Jessecho's picture
Jessecho
zzz

Fangel: The HP regeneration was a problem because if your Sleep resistance was far enough in the negative, you could simply leave one Sloom alive, take one hit, stay Sleeping for ten seconds or more while your teammates shield bump the enemy away from you, and keep on doing that with every party member until you were all at max HP. Your fix seems alright, but the weapon/vial version seems like it would be pretty hard to use, because you would have to attack all of the enemies before they wake up, otherwise they come back with buffed stats, which wouldn't be good if it happened to a large group of mobs.

Hexzyle: Well, Fire, Shock, Poison, Freeze and Stun technically don't need to be in the game, either. I'm not saying Sleep needs to be in the game, but it's just something worth discussing since at the moment, it has so much trouble fitting in, and we were promised that Sleep would return back in 2011, yet there's been no word since then, either because OOO decided to abandon it, or they're just being unnecessarily secretive about development of the game as per usual. I'm starting to know how some people felt when it took over two years for the Iron Slug buff to come after it was revealed.

Spark-Of-Hope: Eh, there's always going to be that one cluster of players who get Knightmare 99% of the time and end up having a terrible time with the game... I'm not really sure how I feel about those.

Thu, 07/02/2015 - 11:36
#6
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

Will the sleep sealed sword be pierce damage like slooms or something else?

Other than that question I fully agree with the OP

Thu, 07/02/2015 - 11:44
#7
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Well that's the thing

It's hard to make the status balanced and not terrible while making it unique and make sense. Freeze holds us in place, however we still attack. The idea is to become freed ASAP by a teammate. With sleep, it's similar to curse in how we react to it, however it has a positive at the end to counter the inability to use remedy capsules.

The only problem with the sleep I recommended is that it really relies on teammates defending you. I would say give us the ability to move or wake knights up (which will activate drowsiness) that are sleeping. Instead of using the /sleep animation, make them use the old callahan fall-on-butt-on-charge animation (which is also used for the geo knight death animation).

And as I said before, everything you're saying is in theory in terms of health regen. There are 3 armors that are weak to sleep in the game and they are all plate armors. In their appropriate tier, they won't even help against the damage type until the 5* ironmight. You might need to take 30 pips of damage to heal for 6 pips. The only thing that doesn't hurt you but puts you to sleep is sloombargo mist.
People make sleep out to be an abuse-able status when the times you really need to heal are not ones you'd be at enough health to take a hit and try to heal that back. You don't see people claiming we should remove stun because it's abuse-able because of flash charges...
If we brought back sleep today, do you think players are going to ditch black kat and chaos just so they can take damage and regenerate health? Probably not.

I do like Spark-Of-Hope's idea for a randomized status. That's something we don't have in the game yet. This would allow for a few things, such as immobilizing players (kinda the sleep we have now), slowing the players (acting like the drowsiness I stated earlier), or confusing the players (inverting their control scheme). Most sleep suggestions (including my own) are a bunch of rehashes to other statuses. With Spark-Of-Hope's, it adds a new threat to the game while not being infuriating.

Thu, 07/02/2015 - 12:59
#8
Jessecho's picture
Jessecho
Vohtarak

I hadn't really stopped to consider what damage type the sword would be, but Piercing is definitely a good choice since we're currently lacking in heavy Piercing swords and Piercing swords in general... I mean, when you get down to it, BTB, Final Flourish, FR and Furious Flamberge are the same exact playstyle, anyway. Of course, the Sleep sword could be included in the presumed Sword Update, or just added as soon as Sleep makes its grand return, assuming that happens after the Sword Update.

Thu, 07/02/2015 - 13:12
#9
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
Sleeeppyyy...

Then why not make sleep into a whole new satus and removing it's weaknesses and giving it a unique positives that do not derive from existing statuses.

Thu, 07/02/2015 - 13:31
#10
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

@jess
Good, I was thinking it would be pierce since the Antigua's got one and we already have enough heavy normal swords
This would work really well in undead or fiend arenas, the wide swing and debilitating status would solve greaver problems
And the gran Faust style of charge prevents it from becoming too OP (imagine a DA with sleep, that would ruin lockdown)

Thu, 07/02/2015 - 15:04
#11
Dinosaurvista's picture
Dinosaurvista
Suggestion

The "drowsy" effect before getting put to sleep is a good idea, but I propose that instead of getting locked down and being unable to do anything whilst asleep, you should still be move around (sleepwalk). Maybe make sleepwalking a bit faster than getting stunned, but the downside being that you cannot attack until it wears off.

In a nutshell, you should have about 1 to 2 seconds or so of grace time before going to sleep. You can then move around at a pace slightly faster than getting stunned, but you can't attack until the status is over. Kind of like the opposite of freeze, where you can attack but can't move.

Thu, 07/02/2015 - 20:19
#12
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
well...

@Cozmar:

Well we should not be able to shield either sense we are asleep even if were sleep walking. We could make it that while sleep walk, our actions are random where we unleash attacks randomly while the player sleep walks. This would make it harder for the player to have full control of their character and the eep walk to be more literal.

Thu, 07/02/2015 - 22:58
#13
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle
@Jessecho

Hexzyle: Well, Fire, Shock, Poison, Freeze and Stun technically don't need to be in the game, either.

Don't pull a WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS: Fire, Shock, Poison, Freeze and Stun are fine being in the game because they're not more broken than a dropped cathode-ray television screen. Stop trying to find someone to fix it! It's a freaking 20th century piece of junk! Get a new TV, there's a reason CRTs stopped being manufactured.

I'm not saying Sleep needs to be in the game, but it's just something worth discussing since at the moment, it has so much trouble fitting in, and we were promised that Sleep would return back in 2011, yet there's been no word since then, either because OOO decided to abandon it, or they're just being unnecessarily secretive about development of the game as per usual. I'm starting to know how some people felt when it took over two years for the Iron Slug buff to come after it was revealed.

I can say with almost certainty that it is abandoned. There are other things that Three Rings have hinted at since 2011. Things that definitely have progress on them, unlike Sleep which has remained unchanged since its original removal years ago.
I don't know about all you forumers, but I've seen almost half a hundred sleep discussion threads come through the suggestions subforum. And that's just the ones I took notice of. I'm sick of it, and I'm pretty sure that almost every possible balance to it has been brought up.

The ultimate failure in suggestions threads is that they fail to see that Sleep is simply, by definition, too similar to other statuses, that's the huge issue with it. Sleep and sleepyness is characterized by slurred or lack of movement and an inability to respond to stimuli in a timely fashion. Freeze immobilizes, Stun slurs. So what can sleep do that these don't already, and that couldn't be covered by another status like "muddle" or "regenerate" or "petrify"?

Fri, 07/03/2015 - 07:27
#14
Dinosaurvista's picture
Dinosaurvista
^ ^

Blanda, whilst in sleep then yes, you shouldn't be able to shield.

But having your character attack and fight randomly in sleep is over-complicating things.

People on this thread need to realize that the status effects in this game have simple mechanics. Unblockable damage; spazms that cause your character to pause, or slowing your movement and attack speed. Short and sweet is key.

Fri, 07/03/2015 - 08:32
#15
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
Spasm

@Cozmar:

The developers can create a program where it sends the same signal/code that we use to attack to our characters. These signals would be pressed periodically at random intervals, and would attack the direction we faced our character at the time we are sleep walking. We would not have control over the time the signal is pressed and this behavior can stimulate our sleep walking behavior.

I believe sense the developers created the game, they should also be able to modify it to sone degree especially sense they are using java as the base code. Java is reknown to be flexible and the structure is able to be modified to some degree after the code has been compiled.

Anyway, this part of the discussion that refers to java coding is for experts only. And sense i am not, i won't continue, but my suggestion remains valid. Even if an action id not in the game, we can still imagine new things beyond the boundaries of the game that has not been created yet. Of course it would seem complicated, but it's not impossible.

Sat, 07/04/2015 - 02:27
#16
Dinosaurvista's picture
Dinosaurvista
...

By simple, I meant gameplay-wise. Not how hard it would be to code.

Sun, 07/05/2015 - 05:38
#17
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

Exactly. Every status can be summed up by a few words, and generally have a single bonus rule:

Fire: Damage over time
Shock: Intermittent disabling of all actions (Plus damage in an aoe)
Poison: Reduced attack and defense (and reversed healing)
Freeze: Cannot move or turn (freed with damage)
Curse: Take damage when attacking (with marked weapons and items)
Stun: Move and attack slower
Doom: Removes all defense

If you need a large paragraph of text to explain a status, then it's obnoxiously complicated, and is just going to confuse the heck out of players when they encounter it in game.

Sun, 07/05/2015 - 15:14
#18
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
hmmm??

@Hexzyle:

Did we have this "Doom: Removes all defense" status in sk? When?

Mon, 07/06/2015 - 06:07
#19
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

I don't know if it's ever received an official name anywhere, but the common name for it is "death mark" (even though there's no images or pages for it or anything on the wiki) while the original, unimplemented status was called "doom" and had a slightly different symbol.

Mon, 07/06/2015 - 12:48
#20
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
Oh!

@Hexzyle: oh i remeber that mark. It's the mark we get from the gremlin stalkers. I didn't know it classified as a status, but you are right sense it does mess with the players defensive stats. Thanks for reminding me.

Wed, 07/08/2015 - 11:07
#21
Cheshireccat's picture
Cheshireccat
+1

I want sleep back in, just for the reason that it's an additional status effect. Getting more statuses into the game means more player attention to status defenses, more ways monsters can hurt players, and more ways OOO can challenge us. :)
It also justifies the armor with sleep resist.

Let's simplify:
How about we just reduce the sleep healing rate for players, increase the sleep healing rate for monsters, and add a one-hit wakeup?
I was unaware that getting hit didn't wake you up. But if it does, all of a sudden you'll have to fear Sleep more than you do Freeze. With Freeze you can take the hit on a shield to escape or have a friend free you. Sleep would hit you once (except in sloom mist) and again when you wake up (unless you Remedy or let it time out).
That's danger + very little player abuse. Like Fangel said, "If we brought back sleep today, do you think players are going to ditch black kat and chaos?"

--Chesh

Wed, 07/08/2015 - 13:47
#22
Fangel's picture
Fangel
True.

If you need a large paragraph of text to explain a status, then it's obnoxiously complicated, and is just going to confuse the heck out of players when they encounter it in game.

I'll agree to this and am not free to say I haven't done this. However that is a good structure.

Possible short ideas off the top of my head (others may have listed them, but hey, short list is go):

Move slowly, cannot attack
Become stationary on a timer after being inflicted (heal if not hit)
Inflict random effect (damage player, immobile, wander, heal)
Impair movement (stumble, sway to the left or right while moving)
Inverse/randomize controls
Reduce vision and noise (blacks out your screen except for a small circle around your player, sounds become faded)

Honestly I don't know why I've never thought of that last one before. You could consider that "blindness", but when you're tired your vision is all blurry, so making you unable to see dangers and whatnot would be kind of a big deal.
We have the "low health" red overlay in game so that's not too bad, and making us unable to see our foes would add something new that no other status does. Makes ranged attacks much more dangerous. Vision and sound is impaired more or less depending on resistances.

Wed, 07/08/2015 - 18:03
#23
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
True!

@Fangel:

So true. That last effect really depicts how blindness should work in the game. It would really work with the kind of top view camera angle we use while exploring the clockworks.

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 04:18
#24
Jenovasforumchar's picture
Jenovasforumchar
team play

@ post 7:
,,The only problem with the sleep I recommended is that it really relies on teammates defending you."

I see it actually as a positive aspect that you have to rely on a Team instead to be able to solo everything. Sure you can still win over Monsters that caused you to sleep while playing solo, but there is nothing better in such a Situation than a Team that helps you out of the misery.

According the fact that heavy Amors have negative sleep: i think that it was supposed that tanking Players can actually heal this way.

Another Thing: when the slooms acidentally re-appeared after Crystal spedning got removed, someone wrote in Forum that a good sleep resistance makes 1. sleep leasts shorter and 2. hits can already wake you up. In this Topic i see People telling that wakin up is not possible. Can someone clear this up who tested it?

in short: after all i want sleep inside and therefore i wonna use a tanky Play style.

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 08:50
#25
Jessecho's picture
Jessecho
Jenova

Hmm... That could certainly be possible, but it's hard to know since 1. The ONLY armor/shield set that gives Sleep resistance is the Royal Jelly line which is a rarely used set ignoring UVs, and 2. Slooms are gone from the game now, so there's no way to test it. That feature can be added, but there still needs to be a way for people without Sleep resist to be able to wake up with damage.

However, that point you make about heavy tank players being able to heal with Sleep is an interesting point... however, the only way to keep that ability from being broken is to keep Plate users from being able to wake up by being hit, and that would get mixed reception at best from the small cluster of knights who use the Plate Sets. As a side note, I'm starting to feel conflicted about Sleep's HP regeneration effect, because that was part of what made it an interesting status. Though I can say with utmost certainty that if the version of Sleep we could use with weapons and vials had HP regeneration, it would be pretty useless.

Fri, 07/10/2015 - 10:33
#26
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Yeah.

That last effect really depicts how blindness should work in the game.
I figure we can tag it onto sleep as a sleep fix, however a "blind" status would be really interesting.

I see it actually as a positive aspect that you have to rely on a Team instead to be able to solo everything.
I understand the good that comes out of having teamwork in a co-op game, and I agree that a status that relies on teammates would be good in general. However, since battle sprites, Three Rings has taken a bit of a "take care of yourself, and make your party victorious" stance. Loot is instanced (so you must pick it up, which includes health capsules), and with health revives gone it ensures that us players can only make so many mistakes, however our mistakes do not punish our teammates in the form of health anymore.

The issue with sleep, and many forms of sleep, is that it immobilizes you and then prevents you from attacking. Taking away our ability to attack in exchange for very slow and not-worthy health regeneration is a pretty big deal, because you'll just lose more health than you regenerate.

And if sleep works identical to players as it does enemies, then you can test sleep through sleep vials. On enemies strong hits will wake them, but we are unaware if sleep can be re-inflicted, like just about any other status.
I'd rather rework sleep so that it doesn't turn every enemy into a harder silversap, hence this thread and all the ideas in it.

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