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Balancing the new patch

7 replies [Last post]
Sun, 06/12/2011 - 02:57
Mohandar's picture
Mohandar

Overall, I do like the changes made in the new patch, but it feels like they weren't tested very thoroughly. As such, I have noticed a couple things (and I'm sure others in the community have too), and I have some suggestions.

1) Wolvers, particularly alphas, are doing too much damage. Prior to the patch, they had very high normal damage, which was okay because most players stacked normal defense. But with half or more of that damage converted to piercing, it is nearly impossible to stack the equivalent amount of piercing resist, so even with armor that provides pierce defense, the wolvers are doing more damage than before.*
2) Jelly cubes have too much range on their spike attack, and the spike are able to damage you even when you have no way of hitting the jelly. Specifically, I'm thinking d15 right side room and d16 top right room, of the Jelly Palace; before you hit the blue vanish-blocks, enemies on the other side should not be able to touch you (this is true everywhere else), but the jelly spikes go right through.
3) The spike attack animation is too subtle; even without a bomber present it is very difficult to see the dust forming. Also, players are used to watching the ENEMIES for attack telegraphs, not the ground underneath their knight. This is exacerbated by the fact that jellies are symmetric, so there is no way to tell which way they are facing. In a room of jelly cubes, it is impossible to tell which attack is coming from which cube; this information is crucial to dodging and shielding.

My suggestions are to reduce wolver damage slightly, and change the jelly spike attack to a fixed range immediately in front (about the range of a retrode swipe), with the attack telegraph cues pointing in the direction the jelly is going to spike. Likewise, ensure that jellies conform to the "no-reach, no-damage" rule- if you can reach out to damage them, they shouldn't be able to reach out and damage you either- for example the blast from an Ash will not set enemies across a set of blocks on fire, and zombie breath cannot hit you across those blocks either.

*Theoretical example: prepatch wolver bite does 100 normal damage; player is wearing skolver set; say it manages to reduce the normal damage by 50%. Postpatch, wolver bite is 50 normal/50 piercing. Skolver provides same % reduction on the normal damage half, but its piercing defense is still lower- thus the piercing half does a bit more damage. Overall, the player has taken more damage, even with the proper defensive gear.

Sun, 06/12/2011 - 04:33
#1
Cronius
balancing

I don't know how to open my own topic so ill say it here since is connected somehow to it.I like the game,its like am kid again when i play it,it has something in it,that fealing you know.Obviously SEGA recognized that something 2,and they are part of it 2(many great games..).

And i will play it as far as i can being free player,since there is no game card option for CE.And other options is not a option for me,i will not go 2 details since half of you will hardley read even this,my english writing sucks.I just wanted to say that its a great game and they can nerf it as they like and i will play it,still please balance it,you know the issues,theres plenty posts about it already,which means theres a lot people fealing the same way about the game as i do.

I dont want to see this game go down,its unique.In future i would like to see more payment options(game card please,and in europe 2),so i can show my suport for hard work put in this.And give a free players that invest time and effort in it some chance of competivity vs paying players.
Thx all for the trouble of reading it,and i hope some of the game stuff will read it and understand point of view i talk about,i belive im not alone in this one,cheers.

Sun, 06/12/2011 - 11:02
#2
Eeks's picture
Eeks
I posted this in another

I posted this in another thread but it seems appropriate here.

> I didn't say I got hit that much, actually. I don't get hit that much. But when I do get hit, it doesn't seem fair.

EXACTLY. It isn't that you got hit. I don't mind them having split damage or ranged attack at all but the way they deal their "mid ranged" attack is just unfair. To compare it with something, I don't mind retrode attack either but at least when I DO get hit by a retrode it was usually my fault. When I get hit with spikes it's more of a WTF? How am I supposed to deal with that moment?

Range - For an enemy the quarter the size of a lichen colony, it somehow has double the range?

Unpredictability - Outside of a couple of mobs that spawn in JK this isn't an issue but this is a serious problem. The spikes are unpredictable. Sure, most of the time they'll come out in a straight line at you but sometimes they can come out perpendicular. This really makes no sense in the context of the enemy and is something that should be rebalanced. Again it isn't a matter of you getting hit sometimes. When you DO get hit it is complete bull. On top of that you can't really tell if they are going to do their spike attack or tackle attack. The animations are similar and the charge is too fast to tell the difference. If you're fighting a group of cubes then you need to be paying attention to the ground and not the enemies. This is really, really poor design.

Spikes Through Walls - NO, just NO. Spike pit + wall spikes + small area to navigate in? That is awful design.

Decals not clear, especially when bombing - Tell me where the spikes are going to come up in this screenshot. Spoiler: you can't and neither can I.

Fast Charge, No Cancel - The charge up on their spike attack is way too fast and on top of that you cannot cancel it. I'm sorry but if I can get hit during a BOMB DROP animation and somehow my bomb doesn't go off then they shouldn't get to throw their spikes if they get hit while charging. That is just UNFAIR. And yes the spikes after death is a phenomenon that I can confirm. This should not happen. Bug report it because it is obviously a bug.

Suggested changes:
Make charge for spike longer and cancelable. Reduce range on spike attack by 1/3 to 1/2 of current range to match jelly cube size. Adjust T3 spike attack to be more predictable. Adjust decal of pre-spike attack to be more visable. Adjust charge attack arrows to show what direction they are attacking since the attack is directional. Remove ability for jelly cubes to spike across chasms or through walls.

Sun, 06/12/2011 - 12:29
#3
GrimmSweeper
Legacy Username
To add what eek5 and pringerX

To add what eek5 and pringerX has said, maybe add a yellow light piercing from the ground a full second before a spike appears. That way it no longer is obscured by the ground itself, your shadow or the enemy's sprite. Other than that, they've covered my concerns on the Slime spike attack.

Sun, 06/12/2011 - 13:10
#4
Madadder's picture
Madadder
the spike being the same

the spike being the same range as a retrode's strike is WAAAAY too short imo

Sun, 06/12/2011 - 17:23
#5
Icee's picture
Icee
Random spikes, not game-breaking, but frustrating

@ErHa2Z53bEN - The Ultimate Game Card is accepted for this game, so you can use a game card to buy CE. Just select the "Pay By Cash" option when buying CE to use your game card. (Pay By Cash is a brand name for a payment service, a bit of a misnomer of a brand name.)

As for the new attacks, I haven't found them to be too problematic. Jellies are certainly much more difficult now, but not unreasonably so. That said, I'm not a fan of the spike attack, even though it's not game-breaking. It does feel awfully random, especially compared to all of the other attacks from all of the other enemies in the game that are, at least a little bit, predictable. The range of the spike varies hugely between individual attacks. The location relative to you and the cube varies. It's not game-breaking, but it's frustrating because you feel like there is nothing you can do other than shield constantly and watch the ground carefully.

I'd rather the spike attack either be a lance-like projection from the cube itself, or a small ring of spikes more similar to the giant lichen colony's attack. Either of those would allow a player to more reasonably react to the jellies, rather than just feeling like the game decided it was randomly time for them to die when a spike shot up through the floor and into their backside.

Sun, 06/12/2011 - 15:44
#6
Travalanche
Legacy Username
The new spiked jellies are

The new spiked jellies are making it very hard to complete a Jelly king run with a PUG, in fact I have yet to complete one after 3 runs because everyone keeps dying OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER and just giving up,personally I don't think its impossibly hard myself and I do okay but find it challenging for sure but my group always dies and I end up having to solo or revive them which causes me to die. I think they should just make a normal or hard mode for the Jelly king, like the hard could give 2 extra tokens and 20% more heat and crowns.

That way when me and my friends are online and want to do it we can choose hard but when doing a PUG run we can just do normal so we have a chance, just a suggestion.

P.S I believe the spiked jellies do PIERCE damage which makes a little over half of the shields in the game useless in late t2 which kind of ruins the customization aspect because your choices are limited if you want your shield to last more than 3-4 hits.

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 09:52
#7
Eeks's picture
Eeks
I think a lot of people (not

I think a lot of people (not in this thread) are confusing unfair gameplay with difficulty. I don't think anyone here is against the game being more challenging but the key is to be challenging in a way that is fair, to design the mobs in a way where if you are skilled you should be able to defeat them without getting hit. The issue now is that even if you understand the mechanics of the jelly roots, they'll eventually get you and when it happens it is complete bull whether it's through a wall, right after you cross some spikes, or even coming out of the ground completely obscured by other effects.

Hearing people's solutions to dealing with jelly cubes is cute. Never stop moving!! If you compare the cube to devilites or retrodes, if you watch their directional attack you can stop moving once they charge and attack safely. This really isn't the case with jelly cubes. The solution is to never stop moving because it isn't clear where spikes are going to come up.

I think pringer hit a really good point in his original post, "players are used to watching the ENEMIES for attack telegraphs, not the ground underneath their knight." The floor spikes without any visual cue of what direction they are coming from is a really bad design choice. Jelly cubes are enemies not environmental hazards but when you get into a room with cubes the entire room basically becomes a floor hazard obstacle course.

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