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Bomb Standard attack (sort of)

19 replies [Last post]
Wed, 08/26/2015 - 12:50
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare

Bombs don't really have a standard attack and that means they have to charge before attacking. Often other knights using swords and guns rush in first and suddenly have all of the monster aggro. The problem is that bombers work best when they have all of the aggro.

So what I propose is "flashing" your bomb. Your knight would hold the bomb with one hand above their head monsters would be naturally aggroed to it. Also when holding using the flash there would be a very small AOE around your knight that does damage. All the bombs would have a 3 "swing" standard attack. This would do minimal damage and have low flinch change, no status either.

Hold up bomb, flash light and damage, and after the combo your knight winds up the bomb to be used again.

Note: This flash will affect all enemies within standard blaster gun range

Wed, 08/26/2015 - 13:42
#1
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Hmm.

Like the idea, and it could potentially mean that slower charging bombs have smaller "combos" and whatnot.

Why not have the bomb do a big *smack* to enemies in the area? Basically a much smaller AoE affect that deals minor damage.
Either that or standard attacks drop bombs with a very small radius at our feet that explode shortly after. Basically a mini bomb of the one we're using. (mist bomb at 5* would drop a 1-1.5 tile radius mist bomb that would last for a second or two) When we get hurt we could even have a chance to drop one of these (with a 200% chance at dropping a heavy deconstructor) like a darkfang demo.

Having bomber armor naturally aggro enemies would be a nice change to the armor however. Makes chaos bombing less rewarding/more frustrating.

Thu, 08/27/2015 - 11:18
#2
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Fangel

Having it so that the player controls the agro would be more helpful and besides enemies naturally agro to you when you get within a certain range. I don't want young knights to grab a Spiral demo and then leave the game because everything always goes straight to them.

A mini bomb would actually date WAAAAY back to some of the earliest versions of the game. I want bombers to have an attack that can be used in an instant rather than on a timer. That way they have something to deal with the faster monsters who close in faster that they can charge a bomb. (Kats, Greavers, Wolvers, Lichens, gremlins)

Thu, 08/27/2015 - 12:52
#3
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Yeah I figured

The whole thing about bombers though is that they have to charge their weapon to use it. They are also AoE but still.
The demo stuff having natural aggro on them would become heavier per star level. At 2* you attract enemies within X radius... Let's say within 3 tiles of yourself. They're likely already aggro'd on you, or if you're in a group at least you're in bomb range. At 3* it'll be 5 tiles, 4* 7 tiles, 5* 9 tiles. Mad bomber would have an additional aggro range, having up to 11 tiles of aggro.

I would say bomber aggro also encourages enemies to attempt melee attacks if they have any. This means kats will try to bite you and retroids will attempt a swipe at you.

Dropping smaller bombs with lower damage/radius and faster fuses would be good. It's not an instant attack, but it's something that you can more easily time. These dropped bombs wouldn't leave unique types of things behind (DR will explode for damage, not orbs. Mist bombs would only have a small mist cloud in the explosion radius. Vortex will drop the end explosion, not the pull.). Have these bombs only dropped when you lower your bomb, thus not stopping any bomber who currents plays by adding a new attack when they just want to charge.

Sat, 08/29/2015 - 22:27
#4
Deleted-Knight's picture
Deleted-Knight

Wouldn't the aggro flash make electron/graviton vortex obsolete? It will also make bomb range not that important and people might not want to upgrade their mist bombs.

I think the normal attack should be an instant-set, smaller bomb. It would have 1/4th the blast radius and half the damage as the charge. After 3 bombs are on the ground, the bomb in the knight's hand smokes and undergoes a long "reload" animation.
The charge would be useful for covering large mobs, but the normal attacks are more easily chained and offer versatility.

Bomb switching could become an interesting new meta in Lockdown.

Sun, 08/30/2015 - 12:23
#5
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Deleted

Not really, both the vortex and mist bombs work as team support and as mentioned above the "Flashes" would be weak and have no status. The whole point of those two bombs is team support rather than damage or knockback.

@ Fangel

To keep it simple I'd prefer it to be a simple and instant blast with a small AOE this makes the "Flash" reliable in any situation that inhibits bomb charging.

Mon, 08/31/2015 - 05:47
#6
Kneeanderthal's picture
Kneeanderthal
+1 I can confirm that

+1

Flash your enemies.....works on us guys, why not monsters too

Tue, 09/01/2015 - 14:24
#7
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Hmm

Something else to consider is that if we got this we should totally put bomb ASI: Med on each mad bomber piece and maybe a bomb ASD: med/VH on strikers in lockdown.

Bombers are a "prepare now, fight later" sort of class. Dropping bombs around yourself would be a way to keep things rolling.

Instant blasts make bombers too much like other classes IMO. I want to keep them special, hence the short fuse times on the ground. They can be a fuse time of 1-2 seconds depending on the bomb.

Other changes I'd say is that putting a bomb up and down no longer stops you in place, but whenever you let go of a charge it drops a bomb at your feet. Would be interesting if the longer you held the charge the closer to the max bomb charge it would get. If you charge up a bomb 90% of the way, then get hit by a sword, you'd drop a bomb with 59.4% of the bomb radius and damage (66% damage/radius would be the "curve", meaning that a fulled charged bomb will always do a fair amount more than a 99% charged bomb to still encourage fully charged bombs). Again, these bombs lack the special effects a fulled charged bomb would have.

The "flash aggro" idea is cool and all, but I personally feel having that be a bomber passive rather than a bomber attack would benefit them by opening up doors to allow for an actual attack that can break rocks and minerals and the likes. Setting short traps would be super fun

Wed, 09/02/2015 - 14:15
#8
Dibsville's picture
Dibsville

+1
One old suggestion that was similar to this was having your bomb make a "spark" if you stopped charging it before it was ready; this could tie in as well-- not to take away from your suggestion, just a visual of how it could work without having to completely change animations or anything.

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 11:42
#9
Deleted-Knight's picture
Deleted-Knight

Holy-Nightmare,
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "aggroed to [the bomb]"...
In the time someone can charge and plant a vortex, another person can do multiple flashes (since not a charge attack). It effectively acts like a vortex by grouping monsters together. You mentioned yourself that vortex are used mainly for support, not dps.
Mist bombs are upgraded mainly for their range since status doesn't change. If you have the aggro technique, why waste the resources to heat up your 4 star mist bomb, or even 3 star for that matter?

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 12:24
#10
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Deleted

Ever try solo fighting a horde of monsters with a 2* Fiery vaporizer?

Enemies move at different speeds and some move fast enough to move out of the Bomb's range before it can inflict them with status. Wider range also offers more use in LD as well as more time to inflict the status (since haze bombs don't immediately inflict status more area is more useful).

The flash isn't guaranteed to get agro but it becomes much easier when you can quickly attack enemies.

Vortex bombs are centered around team synergy.

Think of the flash as a small AOE damage attack and the agro effect as being a bit wider than the damage dealing AOE

Fri, 09/04/2015 - 16:41
#11
Deleted-Knight's picture
Deleted-Knight

Still not seeing what your idea of aggro is. Will it suck in enemies closer to you or does it just make them want to attack you?
Let's say there's a shuffle-bot 8 tiles away, and you flash 3 times in a row. What happens after each flash?

Having the ability to suck enemies toward you is very powerful, in Lockdown and in clockworks. You basically get to mess with their movement patterns. Allowing a normal attack to do this is pretty game-changing in terms of how bombers play.
Currently bombers spam bombs strategically and hope enemies will run into them. With your aggro attack, bombers will place bombs more sparingly and focus more on pulling enemies into bombs already placed. As long as your bomb is not too small, you can easily drag multiple monsters into the range before it dissipates.

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 06:46
#12
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
deleted

aggro means it wants to attack you, no one said anything about pulling enemies to you

and this would make vortex better actually, you flash one, enemies come after you, you drop a charge and the enemies are trapped, much easier than chasing down some who are aggroed to a different person

Tue, 09/08/2015 - 11:37
#13
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
......

@ Deleted

http://www.blogcdn.com/massively.joystiq.com/media/2011/10/facepalm.jpg

@ Vohtarak

http://img13.deviantart.net/c3f1/i/2005/296/7/a/have_a_cookie_by_dannys_...

Sat, 09/05/2015 - 10:33
#14
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Yeah

Bombers naturally want more aggro on them due to dealing less damage per enemy, but more damage across multiple enemies. Since they are 'aggro'd' towards whoever does the most damage, swordies and gunslingers will often drag enemies out of the range of a bomber's bomb, or simply not walk towards the bomber in the first place. Luring enemies towards you is a good method to fix this.

Personally I like the idea of armor having aggro rating, and bombs having a fast arming small radius gremlin-demo-esk attack.

Tue, 09/08/2015 - 11:31
#15
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
um what?

holy that link sent me to a photo album of weapons/flags, could you explain that?

also I like the "flashes on release" idea, the new bombs should be able to charge without needing a normal attack first

Tue, 09/08/2015 - 11:38
#16
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Vohtarak

Wrong link, fixed it....

Tue, 09/08/2015 - 15:14
#17
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Certainly better than what we have now, though I'm still not convinced for a few reasons- namely the learning curve of bombs and the nature of small encounters.

To start with, newer players that flash aggro are quite probably going to die because they just dictated all of the aggro onto themselves and aren't prepared to deal with said aggro. What the aggro flash was would eventually become clear to them, but how would you teach the importance of such a mechanic? I worry that younger players especially would have trouble conceptualizing

Small encounters are often killed and dominated by gun/sword users because of how instantaneous those weapons are, which has nothing to do with aggro. Take combuster vs dark retribution for killing three retrodes as an example. With dark retribution, you want to bait those construct into you but with combuster, you just walk up and slash away or release a charge- no waiting or baiting involved, and what the constructs do doesn't actually matter at all- they're really just sitting there and taking the hit.

--------------------------------

The good part of this is certainly worth mentioning however- such an aggro mechanic could really expand upon our combat system in arena like areas as well as with such small encounters. There are two ways I'd really like to see aggro incorporated into the game:

1. Items that deal with aggro

For instance, a weaker version of nitronome that while being charged, draws in aggro.. or a normal antigua variant that always draws aggro upon hit.

2. Monsters that always focus on people that are charging a weapon

Basically, the opposite of what you're saying. Imagine a construct mini that always focuses on the nearest player using a charge attack- since bombers are always using charge attacks, bombing would always draw constant aggro.. but sword/gun users could also take advantage. This same AI could be made into entire new levels of design, reused whenever needed.

Tue, 09/08/2015 - 18:54
#18
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Fehzor

Back in the days of Mist energy and Gate Mineral Deposits there was one intro mission which helped players master using a bomb. In that particular mission you had to defeat a bunch of T1 Scuttle Bots and Retrodes with nothing but a Proto Bomb.

I would say that this mission be reintroduced with updated instruction and even visual explanations.

____________________

As for your other ideas:

1. I could see a pickup that works like a 2*,3*, and 5* Haze bomb. Enemies in contact with this haze will focus on you.

2. Much like how wolvers focus on gunners, perhaps a feline beast that pounces on those using charge attacks.

Wed, 09/09/2015 - 04:09
#19
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
im back, I know you wish I wasnt

@holy ok, thanks for the cookie
i think the cat enemy would be useful, maybe like a small lion that could finally be put into beast and slime arenas so we dont get stuck with mecha knights (which dont fit the arenas theme AT ALL)

@fehzor I agree with holys idea of bringing back the proto bomb mission, but it does need to be modified so that once you equip the bomb you cant just go back and unequip it, a simple gate going up should fix that though

I do like your construct idea, but we need more elite class enemies in other classes

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