Spiral Knights - Should payout in the JK levels be reduced? (potentially other boss levels too)

Should payout in the JK levels be reduced? (potentially other boss levels too)

24 replies [Last post]

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 11:11

Psychephage

I think several problems would be solved if we simply reduced the payout on boss stratums so that each depth pays roughly the same number of crowns as a random corresponding depth. (i.e. The first level in the Jelly King's palace [depth 15] pays the same as any other depth 15). The final level with the boss should pay far fewer crowns than average for their depth.

[response]
WHY?!?! That's the only place that we can make a profit and be able to afford CE anymore! Why would taking that away help anything?
[/response]

It may seem counterintuitive at first, but this is actually an elegant solution to a number of problems that people complain about.

1) Slow/Stop/Reverse CE inflation
There are *many* factors that contribute to the price of CE, but one of the largest is how quickly players earn crowns. Yes, there are crown sinks, and fountains, CE sinks and the amount that the average player is willing to spend, but the availability of crowns is a huge factor. To illustrate, imagine the following (ridiculous) scenario:

000 creates a new level that is accessible/beatable for people with 4* gear, and it pays out 50,000 crowns for that one level. Let's just say that it's at depth 19, so you can access it easily.

What happens? Everyone that can starts running that level. For 10 energy, you get 50k crowns, so you'd be happy to buy 100 energy for 400k crowns (exact estimates don't matter... but significantly more than 7k cr/100CE is the point). That way, you can spare a death every once in a while, and you've got plenty of crowns left over for your recipes and such. These knights would buy up all the energy currently on the market, and prices would rise until CE hits around 400k. If we suppose the rest of the game didn't change, all new players would be stuck with their protogear for a LONG time. It would take tons of T1 runs, hours and hours of play in order to pay the same amount as the guys running this new special level.

Even though the JK palace is nowhere near as extreme as the example above. The fact is a majority of players see it as the most profitable way to play the game. Some will argue that T3 is more profitable when you account for materials (and it might be), but if more people played T3, the demand for those materials would drop. Some people find trading things at the AH to be more profitable, but if you're looking for the core experience of the game, many people agree that the JK palace is the most profitable thing to do by far.

If the JK palace payouts dropped, the cost of CE should fall as well. It should be closely tied to the average amount of crowns that a knight can make with 100 energy. So that's the number one reason I think the boss stratums need to be more in line (in terms of payout) with other equivalent depths.

2) Where's the content?
I hear a lot of people saying that there's not enough content and that 000 needs to make more. That's debatable, but I think the over-payout in the JK palace contributes to this perception quite a bit. If the JK palace is the most profitable thing to do, and those are the only levels you run, you're cutting out 90% of the levels in the game. The boss levels are static... so you'll be doing the same thing over and over and over...

Unfortunately, as things currently stand, if you want to make enough crowns to pay for your energy, JK palace is one of the only places to be. Drop the payouts for the JK palace, and many players won't feel the need to repeat the same levels ad nauseam.

3) Gate construction (too much shock!!)
Recently, we had a situation where an entire gate was made of shock levels. In the latest release, 000 made the adjustment that no tier could be constructed of two matching stratums. The source of the problem was related to how minerals are generated. For example, shock levels produce fewer of the mineral types that create shock stratums. Slime levels produce fewer minerals that make slime stratums. Normally, this is a very clever, self-correcting system. If people think construct levels are the easiest, they might try to make a 100% construct gate. If they do, this system helps ensure that people can't keep repeating the same types of levels.

But there's a problem. Everyone's playing the JK palace levels, right? What do jelly levels produce more of? The minerals that make shock stratums. If we stop over-incentivizing the JK palace, we should see an end to the overabundance of shock levels.

What do people think? I'm guessing that reducing pay on boss stratums would be unpopular, but I really do think it's the best way to balance several game issues.

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 11:22

jooozek

Legacy Username

Yes, nerf the payout. It

Yes, nerf the payout. It should be lower than the usual runs because you already get the awesome in form of boss tokens.

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 11:34

Oedipus

Legacy Username

Or, alternatively, eliminate

Or, alternatively, eliminate boss strata entirely and introduce them as random encounters. When you enter the second stratum of any given tier, there would be an N% chance that you would enter a boss stratum rather than what is displayed on the gate. This would alleviate the problems you mentioned without nerfing the fun of boss strata, while also opening the door for additional features in the future -- such as additional puzzles, danger room performance ratings, etc, which increase or decrease the % chance to spawn a boss stratum depending upon the degree to which those tasks were completed.

I rather enjoy my payouts playing JK, but only because it is the most profitable gate to run. I want to get the greatest bang for my buck, not run through a tier and barely break even for the 80 CE it took me to run though. Doing something to change the nature of boss strata would certainly extend game content by making non boss strata more favorable to play.

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 11:38

Tipiak

I think that Snarby has

I think that Snarby has already a quite low payout, so I guess it's really about the JK (dunno about Vana payout, but...).

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 11:44

Theonebackthere

Disagreeing..

I disagree because when the Jelly King gate was down for 2 days there was no decrease in CE but it still raised to 7.3k then dropped again to 7k.

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 11:46

gell

Legacy Username

Or, alternatively, eliminate

Or, alternatively, eliminate boss strata entirely and introduce them as random encounters

Except this would mean it would take maybe 4 times as long to get a sealed sword, or any boss exclusive item. For F2P this could be excruciatingly long. How long does it take a free player to beat the RJ 6-7 times (supposed to be 3, but sometimes 4 token payout)? Now multiply that by 4 for the average of a random RJ encounter. Random isn't a terrible idea, it's that you'd need to balance the issue of token-based gear basically by making all gear buying with all boss tokens from that same tier. Not sure that's something people would be happy about, though.

To OP, not sure if the RJ stratum should be reduced that much, or if the others should be raised a tad (come on, 130 crowns for depth 9?), but all the gates should be a bit more balanced with each other so they are more enticing. OOO is adding a new boss to T2, but they probably think that's going to solve the issue of farming the RJ, but it won't. It'll just be two places to farm, although whichever is easier will end up being farmed more; back to square one.

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 12:02

Tive

Be consequent

What we could need is equalized crown payout across depths. JellyKing stages arguably dont give more compared to quite a lot of other stages.
Aditionally or alternatively, redesign of crown payout to an after stage reward could be interesting.
What this boils down to can be read at A) :)

But most importantly, we need a working economic flow. meaning desirable yet sellable endgame items (to get new players to spend money, producing CE that wont be sunk instantly), as well as items that drop everywhere (think like tokens) that are particularly useful to high risk high reward loving players. perhaps used as entry fee for special hard stages.
or explain to me what new players are supposed to buy with CE.
or explain to me what people who proficiently farm T2 would feel inclined to purchase massively. potential 10$ for endgame gear per player just isn't cutting it. (also, some people like to farm stuff when they are actually so commited to the game already)

I just don't know who OOO thinks should pay their bills. Just no interesting offers, be it direct offers, or indirect offers by means of rare drops.

When I'd get asked to spend another 10$ on a set of gear that's less optimal for my vanaduke runs, I'd rather just play on ME (vanaduke runs are loong >->) or quit.

And when a new player buys that starter set, he'd do good in considering that that 7,5kce are actually over 500k crowns and he could buy a full 3* set and all recipes and crafting fees for his 5* stuff he could want. (well perhaps add another 10$ if he never managed to get a profit out of his ME/CE used on runs, and wants a varied arsenal)

So there's 2 things that could be done:
A)Lower crown payout/increase recipe cost (and perhaps make it more equal for fairness reasons)
-Crowns would be more rare/needed so worth more. Downside is you need more of em yourself too.
B)Add reasons people would want ingame cash, lots of it (without introducing unreasonably strong items, being rare is good enough)
-this'd encourage people to spend real money on things that DONT get sunk instantly. Meaning more CE on the exchange.
-Rose Regalia event kind of did this too (encouraged people to get CE worth 10$ for the bonus, not to immediately sink it on something)

edit: and I'd run jelly king stages over clockworks tunnels anyday. I just cant stand those tunnels that happen to make up over 50% of the random stages for some reason. If OOO just outright removed em I'd consider most of all gates to be fun to run.

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 11:50

mintoc

Legacy Username

Support too Oesipus' idea of

Support too Oesipus' idea of random boss strata or even mini-boss cut-scenes.

This would make the game fully enjoiable*. It'd bring much more variety on Clockwork runs.

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 12:01

actinium

Legacy Username

Yes and no. The thing about

Yes and no.

The thing about boss strata is that they pay a similar amount to parallel depths, but only as a whole. For example, try finding a depth 17 arena and you'll see the payout is significantly higher then the ~200 crowns you get from the jelly king fight. The problem is that all the crowns from depth 17 are backloaded into the levels before the boss itself so you get the ~5k crowns from just depth 15 and 16 of jelly palace as opposed to the ~4-5k crowns you get from depth 15, 16, and 17 of the other gates.
Compounding that problem is the way crowns are distributed throughout an entire tier. About 80% of the crowns you make in a moorcraft to emberlight run are in the last 3 depths and in jk palace its all in those 2 depths. depths 9-14 (with 13 being a free basil clockwork station) are nearly valueless energy drains.

I'd opt to redistribute crowns rather then flatly reduce the number. Make the boss itself payout more and take about 30% of the crowns from the last 3 depths and sprinkle them throughout the rest of the tier. Floor skipping becomes less of an issue and things that cost a flat crown cost and aren't part of the energy market, like recipes, don't then take 1-7 more runs based on star level to get, which would be the case in a flat crown reduction.
Also something to keep an eye on would be if making every gate similarly profitable there would be a big effect on materials costs on the AH. There's a reason a rocky core is nearly worthless but a blaze pepper goes for thousands despite having roughly the same drop chance.

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 12:27

Sanzenin

@Oedipus

In regards to:
Or, alternatively, eliminate boss strata entirely and introduce them as random encounters. When you enter the second stratum of any given tier, there would be an N% chance that you would enter a boss stratum rather than what is displayed on the gate.

I'm basically against the idea of the game putting you in a strata different from what the gate map shows as this messes with equipping yourself properly.

What happens when you look at the gate map and see constructs and fiends in the next strata and gear for that and suddenly get JK instead? Try doing JK with all piercing/elemental weapons and elemental/shadow armor? The elemental weapons are ok, but now you've got elemental/shadow armor on. I haven't done JK since the new patch so I don't know if they do piercing damage now...but if they do...your shield and armor are basically paper thin to that damage type (assuming you've geared for a fiend/construct strata with elemental/shadow armor). I'm sure there are many other examples of bad equipment choices for JK that would've been good equipment choices in other cases.

I guess a simple fix for this would be for it to decide that you were getting a JK strata when you get to the terminal. This way, assuming you checked the map or knew the icon on the elevator, you'd be able to switch equipment as needed.

Also as someone else already said this would drastically increase the time it takes to get tokens, depending on the N%. And it would probably lead to mass complaining.

As for the payout issue. I don't have a problem with a reduced payout on JK, though I'm not someone who farms those levels for crowns. I only did JK for the tokens. I fight him now and again for fun, but there's nothing else I really need JK tokens for atm.

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 13:02

#10

Psychephage

@Shanks I agree that we

@Slayer

I don't think that 2 days is a long enough time to have a serious impact. It would be interesting to see what would happen if the JK was gone for two weeks, but I doubt people would be happy about that.

@Shanks

I agree that we probably need more crown sinks (especially at the later end of gameplay).

However, as long as there's *any* area that pays a disproportionate amount of crowns, players will be stuck in a loop of grinding/farming that level. Energy will be out of range for anyone who does much of anything else. The greater the difference between the problem area and "normal" areas, the more pronounced the issue will be.

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 13:34

#11

perzquixle

Legacy Username

Not equal crowns but equal value

Instead of just equalizing crowns, the value needs to be equalized. So the jelly palace should drop fewer crowns to compensate for the increased value of jelly gems. Tier 3 should drop fewer crowns in general because of the high value of 5* materials an recipes. Tier 1 should drop more crowns because that's all it provides anyway.
This leads to interesting game play, because now you can pick a tier based on your goals.

Tier 1 -> crown farming (because you don't get anything else out of it)
Tier 2 -> balanced game play (A little bit of everything)
Tier 3 -> Advanced Equipment (minimal crowns)
Boss Levels -> Tokens (with a crown penalty to compensate)
Back half of a tier -> more crowns/mats then front half to compensate lack of recipe potential (No changes necessary)

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 00:37

#12

Sanzenin

@ perzquixle

Those changes would further reduce the incentive to go into T3. The difficulty already keeps people who could be T3 players from playing there. Take away the rewards and more people will shift to T2.

Reducing rewards as people get farther into the game is not the answer. More time required to access, better equipment needed, more skill required, and easier to die if you screw up should always equal greater rewards. Imagine playing T3, after getting all the best gear, and coming out with the same value as someone in T1 in proto gear. Why even bother to play if all you get at the end is the same thing you got at the beginning. Equalization of this sort is a terrible idea.

Additionally the value of mats and recipes is player-based and could shift quite a bit. Balancing the crowns against this in T1 would be next to impossible. Also, one player with enough crowns could completely change the landscape overnight.

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 23:07

#13

Pupu

Legacy Username

Nah

Changing the payout NOW would change nothing.

I do agree on that the payout of all same tier stratums should be approximately the same though, for diversity of choices when picking a gate to play.

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 23:49

#14

leecadet

Legacy Username

@Shanks: hopefully the break

@Shanks: hopefully the break even point does change. It will be lower. Doing any T2 run would earn you the break even amount of crowns. Right now only jelly runs let you break even.

@perzquixle: I'd suggest T1 for crowns, T2 for balance, and T3 for heat. And by T1 for crown, I dont mean extra payout, I just mean that it is safer, because you don't die as often.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 00:30

#15

Captain-Teemo

If anything - the back levels

If anything - the back levels of t3 should be the money makers. They should be higher than the profit from running JK as normal levels :\

This way players must go through the challenge to earn good profits, and since most ppl can't do this, the ce price wouldn't change much.

Basically this would reward the better players, and the ones going for the heavy challenges.

Even after the piercing damage patch, jk runs are ridiculously easy... Especially if you skip JK himself lol.

Another solution - perhaps instead of loading extra cr in the earlier levels to compensate for the lack of cr on JK... how about we reverse this and DROP the cr you gain on the levels leading up to his palace, meaning ppl would have to kill him to get the reward. This way players couldn't "ez farm" his levels by skipping him, when his levels don't pack a real threat <_<

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 00:41

#16

Tive

@ perzquixle

that's how it is now.
crown/time is T2. Crown/ce on T3 doesn't seem better than T2 either.
problem is if you have 4* gear you can get your 5* mat needed to craft in no time, or just buy it if it's one of the unpopular items.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 01:28

#17

Malyce

Legacy Username

Last time I was in the Jelly

Last time I was in the Jelly King area, I got 1800 crowns from level 15 and 2800 from level 16. The average crowns from clearing L19-28 is about 700 per level. Something seems out of whack - especially with the ability to join in the lair itself.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 02:35

#18

Milkman

I concur with the OP. That is

I concur with the OP.

That is all.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 03:18

#19

sabervolt

Legacy Username

When the JK runs were

When the JK runs were momentarily absent the CE prices didn't go down one bit.

So why would nerfing the payout change anything? For all we know it would just make it much worse for us if the CE prices still keep inflating while we get lower payouts.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 06:24

#20

shires1992

Legacy Username

I think your wrong, when I do

I think your wrong, when I do a jk run with a team of 3 others (usually randomers) I can do the entire run without reviving (maybe reviving once) but returning to haven before I reach the jk, so thats 80 energy used in 1 run, now the amount of crowns I gain from that run is about 10k, cost of 100 ce is about 7k, cancelling out my energy cost for that run, so I have 2-3k crowns profit from 1(?) hours worth of game play, hardly a profit, but a profit non the less. I do jk runs not for cr profit, I do them because the 2 levels before the jk give amazing heat.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 08:09

#21

Oedipus

Legacy Username

Random Boss Encounters

Presumably, if the idea caught on, measures would be taken to balance any game play changes that would result. Token rewards could be adjusted to represent about the same amount of time and effort required to acquire boss token items as is now, and additional challenges (quests) could be completed to increase the N% chance of spawning a boss stratum, such that if the party were willing to work towards it, the boss strata would still be common enough. Ample notification could be given that the boss stratum appeared, or heck, even include boss strata as "hidden" depths at the end of a tier, giving the option to proceed to the next "town" or to a boss gate terminal.

It was just an idea, and it may be a good or bad one, but not because of the concerns expressed above. It was a general idea, not a detailed plan, so as I said, in it's completed state, presumably, measures would be taken to balance any game play changes that would result.

At any rate, only reason I mentioned this is because, if OOO plans to release more and more boss strata, a system like this might become necessary to prevent every terminal from having only boss strata in the second half of any given tier (if OOO doesn't stop making boss strata after the planned munitions stratum).

EDIT: Also, forgive any run-on sentences or the such. I just woke up and the coffee is still brewing :3

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 08:13

#22

Oedipus

Legacy Username

Oedipus vs. Double Post

Oedipus: 0, Double Post: 1 >.>

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 15:06

#23

Coranho

Legacy Username

I also think that the pay-out

I also think that the pay-out should be lowered, lowering CE prices for 1* players, but what then? Won't we just find another level and bump the problem up to 2* players as tier 3 becomes the place to grind crowns?

The problem currently isn't the pay-out, since you can get from 1* to 2* in a matter of days, it's that

[quote] If the JK palace payouts dropped, the cost of CE should fall as well. It should be closely tied to the average amount of crowns that a knight can make with 100 energy. So that's the number one reason I think the boss stratums need to be more in line (in terms of payout) with other equivalent depths. [/quote]

I'm sorry, what? Why would we want crowns tied to the average amount we make with 100 energy? This seems counter-productive, as it would turn the game into one big crown sink with no crowns saved for building up to craft costs in any reasonable manner considering craft costs for 3* 4* and 5* are obscenely overpriced. (As are most respawn prices past the first 2 or 3 revives, but that's for another thread...)

Furthermore, if we cannot earn enough crowns to buy 100 CE after the last 4-5 levels of a JK run and still have enough left over to play through again, while buying 100 CE and having a few thousand left over, which is somewhere the system was/is right now, even though it's immensely mind-numbing to deal with the increased CE price, what would we do if that was removed? Earn #k, buy CE, earn #k, buy CE, unable to sell our minerals, so we flood the chat because we can't afford to post in AH.

The problem, besides the monotony of playing JK over and over, is that we are buying the CE to keep playing, they are *selling* the CE for a quick profit because they can't, or won't, play all of their CE, but they are trying to sell CE at a price as if they played the levels themselves.

CE should always be at least 50% lower than the earning for running JK, unless they want to run JK to earn 100% with their CE: All 45000 of their CE.
For months. And months. And months, all 45k of their CE. For months and months, they sell it for convenience and realism, not to profit as if they played it.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 17:04

#24

Vash_kun

Legacy Username

Take a minute to think about why people farm...

I think lowering the CR paid out in the JK palace levels seems fair...but then again I'm pretty much done farming it now (I just wanted enough tokens to buy an antigua, anyway). Which brings me to my point:

If want people to farm JK less, then for god's sake lower the token cost of the Antigua and Sealed Sword, or raise the number of tokens paid out each run. I had to run JK palace (successfully, which is no longer a guarantee if you're pubbing) 8 times to buy my Antigua. I was sick of those levels after the third time around but I wanted that gun, so I put up with it.

I understand OOO probably intended the Antigua and Sealed Sword lines to be rarities, but this is an MMO, and if you make an awesome weapon, people will work the grind to get their hands on it no matter how boring that grind ends up being. I'm just glad I can get back to playing other areas now.

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Should payout in the JK levels be reduced? (potentially other boss levels too)