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Certain swords shouldn't make you stand still when you attack with them

8 replies [Last post]
Fri, 09/25/2015 - 08:49
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

Specifically, winmillion's first hit + charge, and all of dread venom striker and wild hunting blade's hits including those on the charge, most of which already force you to walk a little. I could also see leviathan blade and cold iron vanquisher getting this changed for their first hit, as well as possibly fang of vog on all 3 of its normal hits.

This change would allow the swords mentioned to function much more safely on the hits mentioned, and give players a better reason to use them; in particular, winmillion would be able to trigger switches with its projectile without slowing you down massively and dread venom striker/wild hunting blade would become much more maneuverable as opposed to absurdly dangerous. Leviathan and CIV are imbalanced with their status dealing counter parts, and could be improved to become much more flexible than the brandishes, which have much higher amounts of damage due to their dual typing. Similarly, fang of vog's hits are rather underwhelming when instead it could be a more flexible variant of combuster. The fact that it attacks slower and destroys the knight on its charge is balance enough.

Fri, 09/25/2015 - 10:57
#1
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
....

I think the second swing of the Troika blades (not the SS lines) should launch your knight forward a bit making it a mid ranged attack. And the charge attack should land and drag the player forward a bit dealing light damage to things in the blade path. You know since it is "a mountainous blade"....

Fri, 09/25/2015 - 21:46
#2
Qwez's picture
Qwez

"winmillion's first hit + charge"
Please clarify this about the charge. Do you mean to say that Winmillion should move the player when using a charge attack like that of all the other swords? Would the player move during the initial aim of the charge, or the final aim of the charge, or what?

"wild hunting blade's hits including those on the charge"
So the charge attack would be like a regular attack combo, but does more damage and you can't stop it and you have limited turning radius?
And when would you use this charge? It would not be safe to use against a crowd because you would stagger nobody. You would not be able to hit a single target unless it's stuck against a corner (because you would slide past your target). I think it would make the charge less useful. Something I'd change for this charge attack would be to make it aimable throughout the whole charge.

"I could also see leviathan blade and cold iron vanquisher getting this changed for their first hit,"
Really? Leviathan Blade is supposed to be standard equipment, and unless all swords get the same treatment and movement on the first strike is considered standard, this change should not apply to Levi or CiV.

"as well as possibly fang of vog on all 3 of its normal hits."
As for FoV, whatever. It's a special weapon. If there was movement on the first strike, then it would also have pseudo-increased range like it has on the 2nd and 3rd strikes. It'd be cool for me because I usually use the 2nd strike for spacing in LD (though there are better options), and not having to do the 1st strike to preempt the 2nd strike would be nice.
But... what do you mean by "on all 3 of its normal hits." What? Isn't there forward movement on the 2nd and 3rd strikes or have I been playing a different game?

"winmillion would be able to trigger switches with its projectile without slowing you down massively"
I disagree with this statement that it would result in a massive difference. Unlike the Tortofist where the bullet is fired after the punch, the Winmillion bullet is fired at the same time as the swing.
Most of the time switches are perpendicular to where you want to go, and knowing that Winmillion bullets are fired at the same time as the swing, the only difference is that you move forward after the bullet is fired (which isn't much when, in this case, you're usually moving forward in a direction perpendicular to where you want to go).

Having movement on the Cutter 1st strike is something I suggested or supported before. But I would also change the Cutter to have an infinite attack combo, because the 5th attack of combo is barely useful. Only the DVS would stagger some enemies if all hits from an attack combo hit an enemy. The WHB does not have this staggering issue (IIRC), and rarely would a DVS user actually do a full attack combo with the intent to stagger an enemy because that isn't reliable and safe.

You're overstating the problems of these swords... Cutters are not "absurdly dangerous" to use, Levi and CiV are already more flexible than the brandishes..., FoV hits are not underwhelming; they're okay for out-spacing and proc fire quite well (the only issue is that they're slow, but if you fixed its slowness you'd remove its pseudo-increased range).

tl;dr
Cutter first hits: +1
Winmillion and FoV first hit & Winmillion charge: sure?
Everything else: nope
-----
@Holy
I kind of like the Troika. I don't think I'd like your version. I could get used to the first change you proposed, but for your second change, a lot of the time I'll try to space out the charge attack and hit enemies that are on hazards or enemies that aren't safe to be close to (which your change would remove Troika's ability to do so).

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 08:36
#3
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Qwez

True, the change to the charge would make it risky to use. Perhaps make it so that when using the charge you get a slight defense buff.

Sat, 09/26/2015 - 21:09
#4
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

As in, winmillion's charge would not have any effect on the player's movement. They could doge, re-aim mid way through, all of that.

The dread venom striker change I'm suggesting is the same way- to where you could walk around while slicing in mid air, re-aiming if necessary. Right now, the charge is absurdly dangerous- your knight stands still while swiping for a few seconds while enemies take pot shots. If you go above and beyond to make it work, it will kind of work but it's never actually going to be some kind of saving grace for you.

FoV would have it's step-while-attacking removed to facilitate this, as the player could now swipe it whenever they felt like swiping, free to move around while swiping.

The brandishes are also standard equipment, sold by Jorin and given out by the Spiral Order. If some swords have this mechanic and some the current, wouldn't it make sense for some of the standard equipment to reflect upon it?

Sun, 09/27/2015 - 00:21
#5
Qwez's picture
Qwez
-1

@Fehzor
You should've clarified what "not standing still" meant. I assumed that by talking about Winmillion in the opening, that you were referring to the forward step on 1st strike, and I interpreted the OP to mean that you wanted to add a forward step to all those weapons and charge attacks.

I don't like this suggestion knowing what you actually intend.

I'm okay with this affecting cutters, but only if there's a reduced walking speed like when firing guns (and for the charge a greater reduction in movement speed). Again, FoV whatever.
Only allowing free movement on the 1st strike is jarring when trying to use the full attack combo when suddenly there isn't free movement anymore.

I don't like this. I feel swords should stick to fixed animations for their boon of higher damage. *animations that are not free to the extent of gunplay.

@Holy
I'd rather not take damage by putting myself into a situation by jumping into the fray with your charge attack. Damage is fairly important to evade in this game.

Mon, 09/28/2015 - 09:55
#6
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor
(+/-)1s are meaningless. This isn't a democracy.

The thing is that swords don't exactly always have the boon of higher damage any more. Many guns are around the same damage and yet allow the knight to strafe and shoot, rather than rooting them in place. What I'm suggesting on the first hits of these swords is to make them more fluid so that they combo better and become nicer side-weapons.

Damage in T3-

Acheron effective: 328 (first hit; also gets more boost from damage ups)
Acheron neutral: 234 (see above)
Leviathan: 203 (first hit)
Valiance: 108

Would you say that, in a hectic situation, it's easier to get off 2 valiance bullets, or 1 hit with leviathan? With the former, you simply have to aim and click twice, and you're done. With the latter, you have to position yourself, briefly stand still to slice, and then either keep hitting or run off; what could you have done (more safely, I might add) in that time with valiance? 4-6 shots? Maybe more?

All I'm suggesting is a relatively small change to a few swords that would make them behave more fluidly in combat. Maybe while you're strafing with valiance, you could pull out leviathan and smack them, then switch back and keep going as if nothing happened. This would give it a distinct advantage over acheron that not many players would actually appreciate, but that would still stack the odds in its favor. The same thing goes for winmillion, fang of Vog and the cutters- being able to freely dodge about with fang of Vog and dread venom striker would elevate their abilities to fill a much needed void for swords, while providing winmillion with the crucial ability to hit switches from afar without compromising the knight's ability to dodge freely.

Mon, 09/28/2015 - 19:27
#7
Qwez's picture
Qwez
I know, but I use it to quickly state my overall opinion.

"The thing is that swords don't exactly always have the boon of higher damage any more."
When you put it that way... your suggestion makes a lot more sense. I guess I haven't really noticed the changes in game... I usually use less mainstream weapons and armor, so in LD I've basically done as poorly as I've ever done (especially with my special playstyle where I predominantly spam charges even if a striker is in my face), and have also screwed some people over on missions with my less-than-stellar weapon choices.

What amount of movement speed reduction would you have for each of these swords when doing the free-movement attack. Would the FoV have a heaver reduction in movement speed than the Cutter? Or would there be no reduction in movement speed while attack-free-moving?

Wed, 09/30/2015 - 09:24
#8
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

I really don't know honestly. It would make sense for them to slow you down a little bit, as that would be almost beneficial.. imagine something chasing you while you slash and walk backwards. Your dread venom striker knocks it a little bit back, and you walk a little bit back, and it would have to work quite hard to close the distance so that the next slash can actually hit. This would require perhaps about a negative med, in terms of the movement speed stat?

It would also be interesting if fang of vog (or some new sword balanced around it) somehow sped you up while attacking. You'd have super slow hits, but you'd be strangely mobile. This would also make for the greatest gun ever- a normal antigua variant that gave you 1 second of backfire barrier every time you hit something with it.

Note that I'm not saying the crazy MSI thing should necessarily happen by the way-- more just that it could and that if I were a dev I'd totally make them and test them (skeptically) however, because if they were balanced and felt right they'd be awesome.

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