Spiral Knights - Lets talk very earnestly about public relations and prize boxes for a minute...

Lets talk very earnestly about public relations and prize boxes for a minute...

24 replies [Last post]

Thu, 10/08/2015 - 07:34

Fehzor

UPDATE: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/112246#comment-1017191

I recently noticed with the Opal Prize Box that PR was going swimmingly on Steam, which is to say drowning-
http://steamcommunity.com/games/spiralknights/announcements/detail/70161...

And the same thing happened only half a month earlier, with a similar yet Sapphire themed discussion-
http://steamcommunity.com/games/spiralknights/announcements/detail/83669...

You could blame it on the Steam community, but I don't see why you would when other prize boxes and events have been well received, both in our community and elsewhere- the sleep themed prize box received quite a few positive comments in addition to the general grumpiness. In fact, many of the prize boxes have received quite a few positive comments in addition to the general grumpiness..
http://steamcommunity.com/games/spiralknights/announcements/detail/83668...

The big takeaway here should be that-

When things don't work, you listen to feedback and change them.

Which isn't to say to stop the prize boxes, but rather to format them or present them in a better way. So lets start with what players have been saying, but putting their words into a more civil format-

1. It's a reskin of a reskin and so doesn't deserve its own slot on the promotrain
2. There are too many prize boxes
3. (Many)Players want "real content" like levels, gear, bosses, not just costumes
4. (on other prize boxes)"Real content" should not be gambled for and sold in prize boxes.
5. (Many)Players see prize boxes as simply "cash grabs", portraying OOO as greedy

So how can we fix these things?

Well, TF2 has had quite a few good ideas. Lets take a look at the first 2 entries on their blog-
http://www.teamfortress.com/

What We're Up To

Wherein the team explains why there won't be anything new at Halloween... except for a community update!

The Invasion Update

Wherein players have made:
-3 new maps to play on! 1 re-done old map!
-One strange new game-mode to enjoy!
-Tons of cosmetics!

How do you get TF2's cosmetics? How much do they cost? Well, you pay 2.00$ to participate. Who would do that? I was on yesterday and 90% of the server would do that and so did I. Then, when you find a box that drops, you unlock it for 2.50$ and gamble, just like in Spiral Knights. The big difference however, is that the super-duper rare items aren't that different from the more common items- they just have kill counters and unusual effects on them, and that the boxes are new and rare, meaning that they start out going for more than the $2.00 it takes to find them- http://steamcommunity.com/market/search?appid=440

How can we apply this to the above problems?
1. Community generated content would solve many of SK's problems
2. Cheaper prize boxes
3. Rare items that are unique, but not game changing
4. It's plausible to sell prize boxes in creative ways I'll even write an example-

Lets say we made a new shadow lair pass (doesn't get used up) that costs 2 dollars. You buy the pass, and you can go down to craft prize boxes for 100 energy, at one per run.. but here's the catch- the levels aren't just shadow lairs or even that new, they're just older levels with new aesthetics, enemies swapped around, akin to the first level of ghosts in the machine, and these crazy missions vary in difficulty and reward. So you have this new event that ties into a prize box; players now have something to do, and you have something that makes money... and, you can run it again at some point.

---

But this isn't just about TF2, a while ago I wrote a similar thread about Puzzles and Dragons-

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/110106

The basic point in that thread is that Puzzle and Dragons does an excellent job of selling things due to how much they give out, and that it really addresses the "cash grab" aspect of their game hard. So let me ask you-

What would happen if everyone received a single bound prize box for free, forcing them to keep (or vendor for 1 crown) whatever hides inside?

This is the case in Puzzle and Dragons- you receive things, very slowly, for free. This sort of give away adds up to the majority of players being able to get their hands on what the whales get, and for the whales to not be the only ones that get to have stuff. Further, it gets you hooked in much the same fashion as that first free cigarette would.. and, it crushes the feeling of "cash grab" expressed above- you have a chance to get things, you just have to be patient. The game isn't just pay 2 win, it's also play 2 win.. which contrasts greatly with how it is now. If you want that fancy aura or that nice costume piece, you have to pay. And, it opens up an even bigger idea-

What would happen if prize boxes could also be bought for crowns/energy/were included with energy purchases as well as sold?

You buy 10 dollars of energy, you get a prize box. Or, you can just buy the prize boxes. Or, you can buy them for crowns. It's impossible sounding, I know. If they could be bought for crowns.. well, that'd turn everything upside down.. but it would also let free to players invest in prize boxes.. and here's the bigger issue- people sell prize boxes for more than they're worth, for crowns. New prize box? 400K crowns.. this sells Three Rings one prize box and nets some merchant the bulk of the profit... meaning that the merchant has actually just lost them money on that transaction; to get that 400K, they'll now have to buy and sell even more prize boxes, or just buy energy.

Even if you disagree with this, there's no reason not to try it.. possibly on the lesser boxes, like the gemstone boxes. Remember how players didn't like them on that promo-train? They'd love opening them for free or for crowns, and in doing so might even sink some cash into the game.

Thu, 10/08/2015 - 08:11

Bonjourhippo

Live feed from the investor's

Live feed from the investor's board

Thu, 10/08/2015 - 09:05

Witelite

minerals

These new prize boxes have no correlation to the actual game. There is no opal, no sapphire, etc. These boxes I believe are only for revenue for OOO. Maybe if they added prize boxes to energy Like Fehzor said, more people will buy them.
Maybe if OOO looked at the forums, more people would enjoy more content, less useless costumes

Thats my candid opinion...
-Witelite

Thu, 10/08/2015 - 14:36

Fangel

Sorta

What prize boxes are right now are ways to make money now that energy isn't "fun" to buy anymore. What would make energy fun to buy? For starters, giving more uses to it that aren't mandatory, or at least giving us an option to spend energy more regularly.

Prize boxes attached to energy does make energy fun to buy - however it makes boxes not fun to buy. This goes a long way actually, since those who want to spend money don't feel like they should, and players with less money or without an option to spend money feel cheated because the "new stuff" isn't for sale on the auction house.

I like the idea of thus separating what a box is internally. You would thus have promo prize boxes, and promo bonus boxes. Promo prize boxes are what we have currently - a box filled with a lot of items. These can be sold at the current rate, or have their price dropped to $2.49 for one box, $10 for 5, $20 for 11. Then instead of having the $50 box option, remove it and instead make it so spending $50 will always give the player a randomized lockbox, a free silver key, and a "Reserved ____ Prize box". This puts all of the lower percentage items in a single box, and gives it to a player who spends $50 for one. You get less chances overall, but if you really wanted that 1% item then why not boost your chances up to like, 30%?

Now that we have prize boxes cheaper and more fun to buy, we move onto promo bonus boxes. These boxes contain items that are rarer and are filled with filler items. Good example of bonus boxes are both Equinox and Solstice prize boxes. They are 80% chance to get a UV ticket, 20% chance to get anything else. It's okay to keep items rare, but these boxes would come in the old method, i.e., every $10 spent on energy would grant a bonus box. You are not paying anything extra for this box, and are getting your money's worth not from the box, but from the energy.

This makes prize boxes fun to buy, and makes players who pay not get cheated. But let's look forwards - what about other players?

Well, in order to appease the not-paying players, let's add something that you can get out of gameplay. Let's say... something that keeps players coming back constantly... Something we see progress in...
Yes, let's make prestige worth something. For every X amount of prestige you can get a free prize box of the current promotion, and if no promotion is active, then you can get a free silver key - reducing the price of prize boxes will make silver keys and prize boxes the same cost thus making this a fair trade-off. This sense of progression makes players want to come back and save up "points" for a promotion that they'd actually want to use the points on... Heck you could have the points be used for other things too, let's just make prize boxes be possible.

This has to be a fair amount of prestige per item. I would say every 100 prestige would grant a usable "token". This can make token farming easier for end-game players, but hey, you're endgame. Something to do eh? Now prize boxes are now $2.45, so how much time should a player spend to get such an item? Let's say you need 55 tokens to get a prize box.

55 tokens? But Fangel, that's a lot of tokens!

As it should be! You can get 270 prestige a day as a vanguard no problem, typically more. If you ran both prestige missions every day and didn't do the third thing, it would take you about 20 days to get enough for a prize box. If you averaged another 90 prestige you'd be done in about 15 days. This means you should be running these missions as much as you can so when a promotion you like shows up, you can cash in!
It would also be very easy to convert over the current player's prestige to tokens. They would immediately get access to the prestige tokens. Boxes bought via this method are bound, however the contents are not.

With this system, you could also have players able to purchase various other items, such as sparks of life, iron lockboxes, fire crystals, slot upgrades, etc. The quicker and easier way to do all of these things would be to spend money of course, but there's no harm in letting players get their hands on something if they are dedicated to the game and make this MMO feel more like an MMO, not just a small multiplayer game.

Something that could be added to this system that I requested-ish a while back would be gate completion bonuses. Give us 10 prestige for completing a tier 1 expedition in the arcade on a gate we haven't completed yet, 20 for tier 2, 30 for tier 3. Do it without dying and you get an additional 50% tokens (5 tier 1, 10 tier 2, etc). Then have a cradle and all one that gives 250 prestige - dauntless gives that additional 125 prestige. This makes each gate give out a total of 465 prestige per gate. This would get more players into the arcade and running full runs because that extra prestige would help a whole lot with getting the tokens. At this rate, you can get nearly 6 tokens a day - allowing you to get a promo box for free in about 9 days time - within the scope of the promo, however it will take many hours of gameplay to allow for that.

Holy moley that was a lot of text. My suggestions forum is leaking. For all of you who don't want to read all of this:

TL;DR - Make prize boxes more fun to buy by allowing for standalone boxes and energy box purchases - choose these by judging the internal contents (if there are less than 10 types of items in the box or if more than 50% of the box is not a new reskin item/costume, make it an energy box purchase). Change standalone boxes so that they go in groups of $2.45>1, $10>5, $20>11, and make any $50 energy purchase come with a free silver key, random lockbox, and any of the current promo's lower percentage items in their own prize box.
Part 2 --> Make every 100 prestige give us a single token which can be used to purchase rarities, slots, and the current promo box(es). Give prestige for arcade achievements per gate.

Think that should be everything. Got typing and couldn't stop.

Thu, 10/08/2015 - 14:58

Hmmlol

Just cause the discontent's

Just cause the discontent's voices are louder doesn't mean they are the majority.

Thu, 10/08/2015 - 16:06

Fehzor

@Fangel

I think that players are divided on where and how they want to buy their boxes (stand alone vs bundled with energy) which is why I've suggested selling via both (as in, giving players free boxes with energy purchases as well as selling stand alone boxes) sev'ral times now. Dividing up where you put/classify boxes might work, but I'm not sure everyone or even enough people share that paradigm.

@Hmmlol

It's a bit like proving that it's raining outside. You have 2 options:
A) Find, collect and measure all of the raindrops for miles around, which is truly a defeatist notion
B) Open your eyes and look around to see if there are drops of water flying everywhere

Sure, it could just be some stray water droplets but it's been a few hours and we're both getting soaked by what could possibly be rain. Now, we can continue to sit in the rain, denying that it exists because hey, we can't possibly collect all of those droplets and we need proof by gum, or we can just call em like we see em and go inside to enjoy some nice warm cocoa...... and that state of sitting out in the rain, denying that it's raining? That state is known as 'denial'.

Thu, 10/08/2015 - 16:27

Fangel

Sorta

I like the idea of both kinds of boxes for sure, but I was one of those people who wanted standalone boxes in the first place. Now that I've seen the pros and cons of both, I see it as both can exist in one system - not they both shouldn't be giving us the same things.

Spiralhorn prize box was great because we had 1 accessory and a sprite. Solstice would be great because it has like, 6 or 8 accessories and UV tickets. Equinox really just needs a revamp so it's only equinox items and not UV tickets, and if they don't do that, then to make it a bundle.

Selling opal prize boxes as both energy and standalone is odd - however it would bring in more revenue, no arguing there. I like the current system but it has tweaks to it - unfair prize boxes are even more unfair despite having more chances, and fair prize boxes have no issue. Meanwhile in the old system, unfair prize boxes were not that bad as you came out richer regardless, but fair prize boxes were more frustrating since statistically you have less chances to get something that you actually want and there will likely be less items being unboxed, thus making it harder to acquire in the first place.

Both have issues that would be solved when both are present, but having both be present is kind of a strange feeling to me - not to say I wouldn't appreciate it being a thing!

Thu, 10/08/2015 - 17:01

Dibsville

So how is this flowchart I made in like two minutes? http://i.imgur.com/V55Peuv.png

Thu, 10/08/2015 - 17:39

Klipik-Forum

It's alright, but it's missing any option for OOO making any of their own content ever again, which presumably would happen if they started making money again and paid devs to do so.

Thu, 10/08/2015 - 18:11

Midnight-Dj

I need to give props to Fehzor, I am sure that OOO just want to stay silent and wait until everyone got bored of talking about endless promos and just stay silent, bow down to their ways like Bonjourhippo did. No, OOO, you will never be able to silence us, you can stay behind that wall all you want. But I will stand here, twiddling the fiddles of my electric guitar to my last breath, and until our voice ripped into your ear, we will never stop.

Thu, 10/08/2015 - 21:20

#10

Dibsville

@Klipik

How about something like this, then? http://i.imgur.com/7knEt56.png

Fri, 10/09/2015 - 04:01

#11

Hmmlol

@Fehzor: So... like this?

@Fehzor:

So... like this?

Wed, 11/04/2015 - 09:50

#12

Fehzor

So today is (probably) the monthly Spiral Knights holiday known as jewel promotion box, and I'd like us all to sit back and watch how this week's rendition of the box goes over. We have now seen 4 or even 5? of the same box, and it will be quite interesting to see what occurs today.

Alternatively, we could see something new come out, which would be AWESOME.

---------------

As for a flowchart, I tried to create one but then realized how simple this really is-

1. A prize box is released

2. If the prize box is good, keep it.

3a. Currently: If the prize box generates hatred, keep it.
3b. What needs to happen: If the prize box generates hatred, tweak the formula behind it.

4a. Current result: The players are periodically angered and begin to lose faith in the game.
4b. What could happen: Angering the playerbase is minimized and players gain faith.

Really this highlights what this thread is about- not hatred of Prize Boxes, but rather how they could be better and how they aren't necessarily going as well as they should be. After all, I do want to see the prize boxes do well and I do fully support them.

-------------

And as a side note, I suppose I should respond to Hmmlol-

We have two major models- the first being that prize boxes aren't going well for publicity and the second being that prize boxes are going well for publicity. Evidence, though not strictly hard evidence, of the former has been cited many times- the steam comments linked to above, the plethora of complaints found on the forums, and the lesser number of items found on the auction house. What we haven't seen cited is any evidence for the latter- that prize boxes are doing well and so should not be reformed in any way.

Even if it is the case that the impact of "bad PR boxes" such as the jewels isn't as large as I make it out to be, I'd really like to see some evidence, even informal evidence, that the PR from these boxes isn't primarily negative-- as this is the only case that would justify keeping the current distribution for jewel boxes.

Wed, 11/04/2015 - 09:31

#13

Klipik-Forum

I like how at this point the least-bad PR we can expect OOO to have is less-lazy non-content.

Wed, 11/04/2015 - 14:07

#14

Fehzor

And the show begins- http://steamcommunity.com/games/spiralknights/announcements/detail/72416...

We have our first 8 comments in already! To quote a couple-

"They still don't get that people are getting tired of all the reskins. All they need to do is add something NEW, and people may start pay attention a bit more..." -Augustus Victorious

"Unboxing simulator 2013, 2014 & 2015. Unboxing simulator 2016 is still WIP." -W.A. the Anum

And once again the same train of thought after the same box comes out, with absolutely zero changes.

Wed, 11/04/2015 - 16:27

#15

Bonjourhippo

Unsatisfied players are

Unsatisfied players are always much louder than pleased customers. The fact that there's no shift in PR tends to indicate that things are working out pretty well despite the complaints.

Wed, 11/04/2015 - 17:57

#16

Fehzor

We must have very different definitions of "working out well" if that's the case. To me, working out well means receiving enough money to make content at a reasonable rate and receiving some degree of praise for the things you're releasing, rather than a good deal of angry mobs. Even if it is making them money, I'd have a hard time calling this "working out well".

Wed, 11/04/2015 - 20:14

#17

Parasthesia

Three Rings has the one piece

Three Rings has the one piece of information whether a prize box is popular or not - the income it pulls in.

It currently looks like we just have one artist doing part time modeling and skinning for this game. Oh and our community manager.

Thu, 11/05/2015 - 03:19

#18

Silvercom

Prize box are frustrating, right ?

See my purpose about prize box.

- Lower the price of all promo boxes and add 100CE inside each boxes. ($2.45>1, $10>5, $20>11, like Fangel say)

- Add a monthy subscription for 10$ to all boxes. During 1 month you receive 1 Super Promo boxes for each promo boxes release, and a new cradle pass.

A cradle pass allow you to have a crown discount of 15% for all npc vendor in the game, alchemy machine and you can sell your items for 15% more crowns at npc. (a little bonus for those contributors.)

Super promo boxes works like this :
Each boxes contain 2 items, 1 random rare item (yes those shinny items that you want) and 1 of the others item (like accesories or costume) and also contain 1 confetti or UV ticket if the actual box allow that.

Result : More regular money with this guaranted rarity boxes (10$ each month for 4 super boxes) and buy for thier own box with a 100CE bonus. (box less frustrating.)

Thu, 11/05/2015 - 10:37

#19

Dutch-Oven

A couple days ago I wrote a

A couple days ago I wrote a long open letter to OOO about Lockdown, public relations and promoting the game. I never bothered to post it though because, well, I just didn't think it would even be read by anyone or have any effect. That's how I feel about OOO. Says more than my long-winded post could I guess.... But...

I don't care about the lockboxes/prizeboxes/p2w/whatever. It's clear to me (as an uninformed player of SK making an observation) that this is the method OOO have settled on to keep things going now that the game has reached maturity, ie. the development phase of SK is over.

The only thing I care about is Lockdown. I love that game and I wish OOO had done more with it. Lockdown activity is non-existent on EU server now. I check regularly and I haven't seen anyone Queue for weeks. US Lockdown usually has 1 game going, occasionally 2, sometimes 0. Basically LD is officially dead on EU. Any EU players need to go to US for a match or spend time scouring the servers for willing participants.

Now the reason I bring this up is because I believe OOO did a really terrible job of promoting what I think was one of their best assets. They ignored suggestions, didn't do any promotion of LD (try to find any mention of LD on their website), never give us new content or features for LD, and don't communicate with the community regarding LD.

So the big problem for me is not prize boxes, I don't give a glorp about those, but OOO's lack of open communication. I might come across as entitled and that's fine. I just want the game I play almost daily to keep going and progressing and not to lose all it's players.

OOO, if you need fresh ideas call me! my number is 0121 2069.

Thu, 11/05/2015 - 10:43

#20

Bonjourhippo

I entirely agree with Dutch

I entirely agree with Dutch on this. Lockdown is a major feature in this game, and a huge asset too. The EU LD community used to be huge, it's a downer to see what's left of it now.

Thu, 11/05/2015 - 12:16

#21

Fehzor

It's interesting that you bring lockdown up, as I had no idea EU lockdown had died since I don't really play + live in the US. This all kind of ties together, the lack of communication, the refusal to learn from mistakes, the complaints filed by the players on Steam... I'd feel a lot better if I at least knew why we weren't getting content, or seeing the box formula (or auto aim, since that's generally seen as a negative) changed when it breeds hatred, why there isn't lockdown content being made.

Thu, 11/05/2015 - 18:26

#22

Redmania

"When things don't work, you

"When things don't work, you listen to feedback and change them." in OP

To be honest, when you have whales contining to buy boxes blindly, why make content?
To be honest, it's a bad business decision to make content. Little to no investment on return since active playerbase is not big and hardly any excitement left in this game.

Hate to admit it, but from a business standpoint, exploiting the whales is the best way to go now.

Game just had so much potential. Sad really.

Sun, 11/08/2015 - 15:59

#23

Fehzor

I never said to stop exploiting the whales lol. That's fine.. what isn't fine is having tons of people get mad about it. If they ran the jewel promotion as a year long endeavor in the background for example, they could pin it as not having a new box out and laying back rather than trying to sell rehashed content.

Step one: Tell the players that a jewel themed promo will go on for the next year. Each month, you'll be able to buy jewel boxes.
Step two: Announce it every time it changes, at the start of the month.

Changes everything without changing anything, no? And that's the least they could do. Reducing the price of boxes might even persuade more whales to go for these, since it's kind of not worth whaling for when there are so many duplicates of this one box.

Sun, 11/08/2015 - 19:43

#24

Petater

The critical issue is that p2w tend to stop playing when the f2p also leave. If the f2p lockdown-ers stop playing, the p2w type will stop validating their unique variant spam roll sessions. Like what others said above, lockdown is an asset that needs people, otherwise if that dies there's serious issues that need to be addressed.

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Lets talk very earnestly about public relations and prize boxes for a minute...